Sharp-As-Night's questline handles its dark subject matter extremely poorly

Wolf_Eye

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

That's alright. Thank you for the insight!

AScarlato

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

That's alright. Thank you for the insight!

I know in Dragon Age the dialogue changes for PlayerSexual Romance Partners depending on whether your character is a man or woman. For example I think in DA2, there is a questline where as a male character, your companion Anders obviously has a prior male lover -where if you are a female character the dialogue doesn't suggest this.

It's possible that Bastian line is similar, or since it wasn't verified, the word "girl" could have been "someone" or something generic.

Treselegant

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it with any of my male characters but that could be because I'm more likely to spend more time with my female main. I managed to screencap the line here.

I absolutely hate it because it makes no sense chucking the Mitch Hedberg "I don't have a girlfriend back home..." joke in for Bastian as a character and it just comes across as confusing. But yes, most references to love/relationships seem to be left genderless. I think the same is true of Mirri.

AScarlato

Treselegant wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it with any of my male characters but that could be because I'm more likely to spend more time with my female main. I managed to screencap the line here.

I absolutely hate it because it makes no sense chucking the Mitch Hedberg "I don't have a girlfriend back home..." joke in for Bastian as a character and it just comes across as confusing. But yes, most references to love/relationships seem to be left genderless. I think the same is true of Mirri.

Thanks so much for verifying at least! I'm going to have to idle around and see if I can have that line come up for me. Most of the lines I get center around him being bored/impatient.

It's possible it wasn't even that line - but I do remember *something* even if I can't remember exactly what that something is lol.

I didn't even know about Mitch Hedberg and just wondered why Bastian was letting us know he's single. Sounded like, "I'm desirable but available" lol.

Treselegant

AScarlato wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it with any of my male characters but that could be because I'm more likely to spend more time with my female main. I managed to screencap the line here.

I absolutely hate it because it makes no sense chucking the Mitch Hedberg "I don't have a girlfriend back home..." joke in for Bastian as a character and it just comes across as confusing. But yes, most references to love/relationships seem to be left genderless. I think the same is true of Mirri.

Thanks so much for verifying at least! I'm going to have to idle around and see if I can have that line come up for me. Most of the lines I get center around him being bored/impatient.

It's possible it wasn't even that line - but I do remember *something* even if I can't remember exactly what that something is lol.

I didn't even know about Mitch Hedberg and just wondered why Bastian was letting us know he's single. Sounded like, "I'm desirable but available" lol.

Yeah, I had no idea until someone pointed it out here on the forums. There's a few memes and film references in his companion dialogue as well which absolutely dates the writer (something you should really avoid when writing) and makes no sense to put in. Pop culture references don't really belong in ESO, especially when those references are at 15-20 years old or more. My creative writing tutor would have had the vapours at the very thought .

Buuut that's a whole different story and only really related to poor Sharp in that obviously there's occaisional lack of oversight where the writing for some companions is concerned. A lot of rushing.

PrinceShroob

Treselegant wrote: »

I always assumed, or maybe hoped, it was a step towards having more defined sexualities for companions. Mirri and Bastian always struck me as intended to be bi but then we'd also have at least one character such a Isobel into women and a male character purely into men. Would make sense to do something like that. Though, I don't really know where Ember would fit in as she does strike me as a very young character. Expecting sense where companion decisions is concerned is folly but a small tiny glimmer of optimism lives somewhere in me.

Part of me wants Isobel to remain, definitively, a lesbian, because it's important to some of my friends. That said, I will explode if Sharp's straight.

In all honesty I would expect that there will be no restrictions on companion romance based on the character, especially given that Isobel's quests conveniently gave Aurelia a boyfriend, leaving Isobel available.

AScarlato

Treselegant wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it with any of my male characters but that could be because I'm more likely to spend more time with my female main. I managed to screencap the line here.

I absolutely hate it because it makes no sense chucking the Mitch Hedberg "I don't have a girlfriend back home..." joke in for Bastian as a character and it just comes across as confusing. But yes, most references to love/relationships seem to be left genderless. I think the same is true of Mirri.

Thanks so much for verifying at least! I'm going to have to idle around and see if I can have that line come up for me. Most of the lines I get center around him being bored/impatient.

It's possible it wasn't even that line - but I do remember *something* even if I can't remember exactly what that something is lol.

I didn't even know about Mitch Hedberg and just wondered why Bastian was letting us know he's single. Sounded like, "I'm desirable but available" lol.

Yeah, I had no idea until someone pointed it out here on the forums. There's a few memes and film references in his companion dialogue as well which absolutely dates the writer (something you should really avoid when writing) and makes no sense to put in. Pop culture references don't really belong in ESO, especially when those references are at 15-20 years old or more. My creative writing tutor would have had the vapours at the very thought .

Buuut that's a whole different story and only really related to poor Sharp in that obviously there's occaisional lack of oversight where the writing for some companions is concerned. A lot of rushing.

I completely agree - even when writers put in CURRENT memes I cringe, and know that at some point they will just be dated references that aren't funny anymore. Also it's a level of bleed I don't love when immersing in a fantasy world.

Not to distract from Sharp much longer, but I spent 40 minutes idling next to Bastian with "frequent" interactions while I worked on a spreadsheet for work on another computer, and he said NOTHING at all. Never seen him zip his lips that long - he must know I'm testing lol.

isadoraisacat

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Synaryn wrote: »

In Sharp's quest, it's quickly revealed he's a former slave with total amnesia, and his master was a Telvanni magister called Sondivel Ulres. The relationship very much reads as sexually abusive. I have a screenshot collection detailing this part. Now, I'm in no way opposed to a questline exploring SA, and TES has done a great job exploring dark subjects before. Lamae Bal's introduction was done very well in my opinion, and Serana was excellent all around! But Sharp's questline doesn't handle this subject with any of the grace it deserves, and by the end of playing it I felt so gross and disturbed the way the quest treated this so carelessly.

The major issue is Sharp is shoved out of the spotlight in his own questline with narrative emphasis given to Sondevil. With so much of the emphasis in Sondevil, it makes Sharp feel like an object used to villify him, than a protagonist with agency in his own story, which is especially awful in an SA storyline. Sondivel's obsession is hammered in so often it comes off as using it for shock value. The metaphors and oblique language used to sidestep the nature of the abuse only draw out this shock value, rather than explicitly stating it and moving on to Sharp's healing instead of rehashing his trauma. There's a scene where we play as Sharp in one of his memories of being abused by Sondevil, and the dialogue is so bad and gross it's like reading a Fifty Shades of Grey fanfic. As an SA survivor, it was really offputting and difficult to get through.

My feedback to improve this quest is:

1. Condense the Sondivel plotline to Sharp's first two quests and make Sharp's second two quests about healing and reconnecting with his sister.
   
   Very few SA storylines ever explore the healing that comes afterward, only the trauma itself. Doing this would be ZOS actually pushing boundaries, and centering an SA survivor in their own story. The narrative emphasis would be on Sharp rather than Sondevil.
   
2. Change the POV in Sharp's memory scene to being an observer rather than as Sharp
   
   While this scene is very effective at getting you to empathize with Sharp, it's not needed for you to be in his shoes. Sondevil's cartoonish villainly does plenty for us to empathize with Sharp, and pushing it to this point turns it into just shock value.
   
3. Make Federo's implied feelings for Sharp more explicit so his more healthy relationship contrasts to Sondivel's obsession
   
   Having a character with healthy normal feelings for Sharp gives breathing room from the SA and helps remove some of the narrative emphasis on Sondivel's obsession.
   
4. Make the sexual abuse explicitly mentioned early on, have only one or two of Sondivel's flowery speeches about his obsession with Sharp
   
   As mentioned, hammering it in with metaphors and oblique language comes off as gross and using the SA, again, as in-your-face shock value. State it, give the examples, and stop the shock value.

As someone who was a victim of SA as a child I think I’m going to skip this companion.

I think that is totally fair and I think they should have a content warning for this quest. All SA victims have their own tolerance for triggers and content they want to interact with when it comes to this topic.

The concern here was that other SA victim's did appreciate the attempt to tackle this topic - ESPECIALLY the topic of male victims of SA which gets nearly no serious exploration in media. IMO, the original quest wasn't perfect and some of the changes are great, but I don't love the direction of the rest of the edits they are doing.

I’m a male victim that’s why it hits a little too close to home. Ptsd never goes away. I’m 41 now and it happened when I was around 8.

AScarlato

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Synaryn wrote: »

In Sharp's quest, it's quickly revealed he's a former slave with total amnesia, and his master was a Telvanni magister called Sondivel Ulres. The relationship very much reads as sexually abusive. I have a screenshot collection detailing this part. Now, I'm in no way opposed to a questline exploring SA, and TES has done a great job exploring dark subjects before. Lamae Bal's introduction was done very well in my opinion, and Serana was excellent all around! But Sharp's questline doesn't handle this subject with any of the grace it deserves, and by the end of playing it I felt so gross and disturbed the way the quest treated this so carelessly.

The major issue is Sharp is shoved out of the spotlight in his own questline with narrative emphasis given to Sondevil. With so much of the emphasis in Sondevil, it makes Sharp feel like an object used to villify him, than a protagonist with agency in his own story, which is especially awful in an SA storyline. Sondivel's obsession is hammered in so often it comes off as using it for shock value. The metaphors and oblique language used to sidestep the nature of the abuse only draw out this shock value, rather than explicitly stating it and moving on to Sharp's healing instead of rehashing his trauma. There's a scene where we play as Sharp in one of his memories of being abused by Sondevil, and the dialogue is so bad and gross it's like reading a Fifty Shades of Grey fanfic. As an SA survivor, it was really offputting and difficult to get through.

My feedback to improve this quest is:

1. Condense the Sondivel plotline to Sharp's first two quests and make Sharp's second two quests about healing and reconnecting with his sister.
   
   Very few SA storylines ever explore the healing that comes afterward, only the trauma itself. Doing this would be ZOS actually pushing boundaries, and centering an SA survivor in their own story. The narrative emphasis would be on Sharp rather than Sondevil.
   
2. Change the POV in Sharp's memory scene to being an observer rather than as Sharp
   
   While this scene is very effective at getting you to empathize with Sharp, it's not needed for you to be in his shoes. Sondevil's cartoonish villainly does plenty for us to empathize with Sharp, and pushing it to this point turns it into just shock value.
   
3. Make Federo's implied feelings for Sharp more explicit so his more healthy relationship contrasts to Sondivel's obsession
   
   Having a character with healthy normal feelings for Sharp gives breathing room from the SA and helps remove some of the narrative emphasis on Sondivel's obsession.
   
4. Make the sexual abuse explicitly mentioned early on, have only one or two of Sondivel's flowery speeches about his obsession with Sharp
   
   As mentioned, hammering it in with metaphors and oblique language comes off as gross and using the SA, again, as in-your-face shock value. State it, give the examples, and stop the shock value.

As someone who was a victim of SA as a child I think I’m going to skip this companion.

I think that is totally fair and I think they should have a content warning for this quest. All SA victims have their own tolerance for triggers and content they want to interact with when it comes to this topic.

The concern here was that other SA victim's did appreciate the attempt to tackle this topic - ESPECIALLY the topic of male victims of SA which gets nearly no serious exploration in media. IMO, the original quest wasn't perfect and some of the changes are great, but I don't love the direction of the rest of the edits they are doing.

I’m a male victim that’s why it hits a little too close to home. Ptsd never goes away. I’m 41 now and it happened when I was around 8.

I am very sorry that this happened to you, and I agree for many people the impact of being a victim is life-long, even if it "gets easier" over time.

But I do know for some survivors at different places in their recovery journeys, they may appreciate a mature handling of the subject matter to feel less alone and for general awareness.

That said, I fully support anyone taking care of themselves emotionally and mentally and avoiding this quest if doing it would be upsetting. (I feel this way about upsetting content outside of this topic as well if that is what is best for someone).

ACamaroGuy

RevJJ wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just too much as is.

Not really. It's good to see something "darker" from time to time. For those who didn't like it, just skip it or rush to get you companion unlocked.

[snip]

Darker is fine but if people who have been through the kind of trauma that is referenced here flag that the way the subject matter is handled is not ok, then the decent thing to do is to listen and not gaslight them.

I’m not a survivor myself but there are multiple people in this thread calling out an issue here, and I will gladly back them up if necessary because it’s important that this is addressed.

[edited to remove quote]

Some people play games to escape reality. Having an issue of SA shoved in their face is not appropriate.

Floweramon

Wait, you think Lamae Bal was handled better than Sharp? Lamae Bal, the woman who was literally made into an inhuman monster by her assault and went on to slaughter and SA others afterwards because of how she was tainted and changed by her assault? THAT was better?!

And as for the quest objectifying Sharp, I guess we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on our opinion there, because I never got that impression. His story felt far more in line with Serana, mostly because both characters actually feel like people outside of their assault. You learn about who they are as people, you care about them, the story is about their growth and about finding people that support and care for them. I never once thought of either of them as "the character that got SA'd" but as a beloved companion that I enjoyed doing quests with.

coftysweet

Floweramon wrote: »

Wait, you think Lamae Bal was handled better than Sharp? Lamae Bal, the woman who was literally made into an inhuman monster by her assault and went on to slaughter and SA others afterwards because of how she was tainted and changed by her assault? THAT was better?!

And as for the quest objectifying Sharp, I guess we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on our opinion there, because I never got that impression. His story felt far more in line with Serana, mostly because both characters actually feel like people outside of their assault. You learn about who they are as people, you care about them, the story is about their growth and about finding people that support and care for them. I never once thought of either of them as "the character that got SA'd" but as a beloved companion that I enjoyed doing quests with.

Agreed in every point. And to me Sharp is in his quest far more in charge as the other companions, despite (or maybe exactly because of) his background. I mean, he is the one behaving like looking after the player, while most of the others react like "nice that you take me with you". Plus, his sarcasm and pointy comments when you become too chatty with him or leave him standing in a city for too long - totally worth it and not objectified at all.

He is a strong character with a deep story. I wouldn't do him justice if I see him only under the SA aspect and put him into a box with a label. No one belongs into boxes. Not even fictional characters.