Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Well, I agree with you that disliking entire group of people because of one individual is a bad thing. Sure. There are always "Black Sheeps".Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Well, now that I think of it, I (and probably not only I) will have another reason to dislike Telvanni even more. So, every time there will be an endeavour that requires to kill NPCs with Blade of Woe, I know even more where to go.
Also, just a thought. I have not done this quest, but thankfully to this thread I know what I am signing up for. With that being said, if this quest is at least half as "emotional" and dark as people in this thread describe it - then Sharp-As-Night might become the companion with strongest & saddest backstory.
I mean even if some one dislikes Khajiits or Argonians I can not think that any one won't say (or at least think): Poor guy... I feel sorry for him and feel some kind of sympathy & empathy.
Also, even if some one is Telvanni fan lore-wise, I also can not see anyone not wanting to kill this quest's villain.
Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)
But, that is not necessary the case when it comes to Telvani. They are based on hierarchy. So one who is higher is more important than the other etc. But the thing is that Telvani have countless of examples in which some one in the position of power, abuses that power left & right without any serious repercussions. It is not just one or two "Black Sheeps". So this villain actually kinda "confirms" the "average Telvani" Stereotype. Some one even posted here in this thread that even in TES III Morrwind (which action takes place much, much later in the timeline) stuff like this happens and is actually, comonly & socially accepted. Yikes !
Telvani have power, but what matters is how they use that power. Slavery is bad. But Telvani put that statement to a shame. They go over the top to the point in which slaves are not just slaves but test subjects.
When I try to think about some one from House Telvani who is at least half decent the only one that comes to mind is Divayth Fyr - but even he has done some horrible stuff.
If it was not Elder Scrolls, but for example D&D - Telvani would be Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil.
To be honest, though, even while this quest should probably have been handled with more empathy and care, I very much would not like them to shy away from difficult or darker content. As a world, ESO-Tamriel is very, very fluffy and sugarcoated - esp. considering its rating. Not everything needs to be grimdark (I very much don't like grimdark), but glimpses of heavier stuff keep the world grounded and more believable.
So I don't agree with the sentiment that a quest like this shouldn't have made it into the game. Does it need to put you in the role of the one experiencing the assault? No. Should quests dealing with a topic like this be in the game? Yes.
I'd hate if the lesson they learn from this quest would be to simply not do stories like this anymore.
It's almost certainly too late for substantial changes. (The curse of having everything voice-acted.) But it'd be great if they would see the criticism and do better next time, tackling similar subjects with the diligence they deserve.
This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr
Telvanni famously do whatever they like.
This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr
Telvanni famously do whatever they like.
I also want to put out this lore book example as well.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Telvanni_Requirements
The emphasis on physical appearance for the women (and two of the men, the rest noted to be used for physical labor), makes it pretty obvious that they're going to be....used....a certain way in these "events".
As a side note, I've always wanted to kill Llarel Telvanni (the author of this note). It would be very nice to have him/her dead. Just saying.
EDIT: Forums giving me difficulty in posting an actual link, so you might have to copy/paste it in the url bar.
shadyjane62 wrote: »I'm glad I read about this quest before I did it. It would upset me greatly.
This quest should be removed.
Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)
Other people are usually constrained by laws that prohibit certain types of abuse. House Telvanni is an institution that uses hierarchies of social climbers to prevent anybody from enforcing laws like that. So a lot of Telvanni are complicit in the abuse of power committed by their worst. A better analogy would be a state or possibly a large business.
I watched Nefas play through the quest, and I can't pretend to know what it's like for a survivor of SA, so I can't speak for them. As a player of an M rated game, I honestly didn't see the content to be as explicit as others have stated. The only thing that made me cringe was that book the villain wrote. On first glance I wasn't sure if the tongue part was not referring to Sharp's sassy back talking as it could be taken that way too, and the villain might have been obsessed simply because Sharp was the most defiant of his slaves and he wanted to control someone with that kind of willpower. I know that is not the intent, but if that book was rewritten, ZOS could easily alter the narrative to fit this less offensive version and leave it up to the interpretation of the player.
I don't know how that would change the impact of the story. All I know is I did not find the quest to be as bad as I feared from all this feedback, but again I'm stating that I'm not a survivor and I don't know what the triggers could be for something like that, nor should survivors be gaslighted for the way they feel. I do feel like dark themes should not be avoided because this is a rated M game, and also those explorations can bring awareness (and if handled correctly, maybe catharsis) for the full condition of humanity. Pretending the forest is not on fire when it is will not make the fire go away, and neither will the darkness in humanity go away by pretending it's not there and making everything Disney.
I do agree there needs to be more added to show Sharp is healing, not just in a letter you can put in your house, but in quest form also. Make it possible to skip the memory sequence for those who are triggered by it (I didn't see anything offensive in it except for one line the villain said which could be removed). The ending did seem rushed and not satisfying. I would prefer more being added to Sharp himself and his own healing than altering the narrative in the way I suggested above. That would mean bringing the actor back for some extra lines. Probably won't happen, but that would be my wish as a player going through this quest.
I disagree. You are not obligated to put your life on the line to prevent a crime from happening. That's what police is for. But Telvanni society has no real central authority, no monopoly on violence, that real life countries or even companies do. Telvanni society is essentially anarchy where the most powerful enforce their rules on those who cannot enforce their own, but nobody is powerful enough to enforce rule over everyone. There is no social contract between the people, only a very loose one between only the magisters and masters that mainly guarantees the continuation of the system but nothing else. For a Telvanni to meddle in the business of another Telvanni means putting their life at risk, as retaliation could be fatal. Murder is famously legal in the Telvanni lands if you can get away with it, because "getting away with it" means having the power to fend off everyone who would come after you for murdering that person.
When it comes to "being complicit", if that were true, that would actually extend to the entirety of the Dunmer people. Before the Pact, House Dres provided the backbone of agricultural produce through slavery, which makes every Redoran, Hlaalu and Indoril complicit in their slavery. They encourage the Dres' way of slavery by buying their produce. Only the Ashlanders are free of that baggage. So, I think, you cannot make every Telvanni responsible for the actions of those with the most power. Is that Alchemist in Balmora complicit in the slavery? She only owns that shop but is a member of House Telvanni. I wouldn't think so.
Even if there would be a majority against slavery within Telvanni lands, it would not matter, because there is no central authority that could stop the slavering magisters. If you are physically unable to stop someone from committing a crime, then you are not complicit in them committing that crime, and even if you could, you wouldn't be guilty of being complicit, but guilty of "failure to lend assistance" (not sure if that translated properly into English). Being complicit requires you to protect, encourage or shelter the criminals or lie to the authorities (which, again, don't exist). The only ones complicit are the Archmagister, the Magisters and Masters who could decide to abolish slavery in their councils, as well as the actual practitioners of slavery themselves.
So yeah, while I think it's fair to hate all the Telvanni for their system of values, I don't think it's fair to hate all Telvanni for the acts committed by those in/with power. Bringing it back to the topic of the thread, Reynila is a Telvanni who wants to end slavery, but also did not renounce her status within the House (from the looks of it, as far as we can tell). Would you blame her for what Sondivel did on account of being an active member of House Telvanni, even though she tried to stop him?
I watched Nefas play through the quest, and I can't pretend to know what it's like for a survivor of SA, so I can't speak for them. As a player of an M rated game, I honestly didn't see the content to be as explicit as others have stated. The only thing that made me cringe was that book the villain wrote. On first glance I wasn't sure if the tongue part was not referring to Sharp's sassy back talking as it could be taken that way too, and the villain might have been obsessed simply because Sharp was the most defiant of his slaves and he wanted to control someone with that kind of willpower. I know that is not the intent, but if that book was rewritten, ZOS could easily alter the narrative to fit this less offensive version and leave it up to the interpretation of the player.
I don't know how that would change the impact of the story. All I know is I did not find the quest to be as bad as I feared from all this feedback, but again I'm stating that I'm not a survivor and I don't know what the triggers could be for something like that, nor should survivors be gaslighted for the way they feel. I do feel like dark themes should not be avoided because this is a rated M game, and also those explorations can bring awareness (and if handled correctly, maybe catharsis) for the full condition of humanity. Pretending the forest is not on fire when it is will not make the fire go away, and neither will the darkness in humanity go away by pretending it's not there and making everything Disney.
I do agree there needs to be more added to show Sharp is healing, not just in a letter you can put in your house, but in quest form also. Make it possible to skip the memory sequence for those who are triggered by it (I didn't see anything offensive in it except for one line the villain said which could be removed). The ending did seem rushed and not satisfying. I would prefer more being added to Sharp himself and his own healing than altering the narrative in the way I suggested above. That would mean bringing the actor back for some extra lines. Probably won't happen, but that would be my wish as a player going through this quest.
Can we stop pretending like this is an M rated game everywhere in the world? It's not. It's rated 16 in Germany. Just because it's considered M in your country doesn't mean that anything automatically goes now.
Edit: I am not talking to you in particular btw, I just saw several comments under Nefas' video pointing towards the "M rating". Dark topics can definitely be handled in ESO even with that 16 rating and I think this didn't cross that line, but it's kind of gross when the worst part of this quest exists inside a plot hole and doesn't actually serve a greater narrative purpose. Then it just feels unnecessary.
I watched Nefas play through the quest, and I can't pretend to know what it's like for a survivor of SA, so I can't speak for them. As a player of an M rated game, I honestly didn't see the content to be as explicit as others have stated. The only thing that made me cringe was that book the villain wrote. On first glance I wasn't sure if the tongue part was not referring to Sharp's sassy back talking as it could be taken that way too, and the villain might have been obsessed simply because Sharp was the most defiant of his slaves and he wanted to control someone with that kind of willpower. I know that is not the intent, but if that book was rewritten, ZOS could easily alter the narrative to fit this less offensive version and leave it up to the interpretation of the player.
I don't know how that would change the impact of the story. All I know is I did not find the quest to be as bad as I feared from all this feedback, but again I'm stating that I'm not a survivor and I don't know what the triggers could be for something like that, nor should survivors be gaslighted for the way they feel. I do feel like dark themes should not be avoided because this is a rated M game, and also those explorations can bring awareness (and if handled correctly, maybe catharsis) for the full condition of humanity. Pretending the forest is not on fire when it is will not make the fire go away, and neither will the darkness in humanity go away by pretending it's not there and making everything Disney.
I do agree there needs to be more added to show Sharp is healing, not just in a letter you can put in your house, but in quest form also. Make it possible to skip the memory sequence for those who are triggered by it (I didn't see anything offensive in it except for one line the villain said which could be removed). The ending did seem rushed and not satisfying. I would prefer more being added to Sharp himself and his own healing than altering the narrative in the way I suggested above. That would mean bringing the actor back for some extra lines. Probably won't happen, but that would be my wish as a player going through this quest.
Can we stop pretending like this is an M rated game everywhere in the world? It's not. It's rated 16 in Germany. Just because it's considered M in your country doesn't mean that anything automatically goes now.
Edit: I am not talking to you in particular btw, I just saw several comments under Nefas' video pointing towards the "M rating". Dark topics can definitely be handled in ESO even with that 16 rating and I think this didn't cross that line, but it's kind of gross when the worst part of this quest exists inside a plot hole and doesn't actually serve a greater narrative purpose. Then it just feels unnecessary.
I hear what you said in that you are not talking to me in particular, but I do feel the need to say (since you quoted me and that does make me feel involved) that I do not think anything should "just go" because it is M rated in my country (and no I didn't know it had different ratings in other countries). I would never think anything should just go and we should just get as gory and raunchy as we wish. I'd probably leave any game that went in that direction.
I disagree. You are not obligated to put your life on the line to prevent a crime from happening. That's what police is for. But Telvanni society has no real central authority, no monopoly on violence, that real life countries or even companies do. Telvanni society is essentially anarchy where the most powerful enforce their rules on those who cannot enforce their own, but nobody is powerful enough to enforce rule over everyone. There is no social contract between the people, only a very loose one between only the magisters and masters that mainly guarantees the continuation of the system but nothing else. For a Telvanni to meddle in the business of another Telvanni means putting their life at risk, as retaliation could be fatal. Murder is famously legal in the Telvanni lands if you can get away with it, because "getting away with it" means having the power to fend off everyone who would come after you for murdering that person.
When it comes to "being complicit", if that were true, that would actually extend to the entirety of the Dunmer people. Before the Pact, House Dres provided the backbone of agricultural produce through slavery, which makes every Redoran, Hlaalu and Indoril complicit in their slavery. They encourage the Dres' way of slavery by buying their produce. Only the Ashlanders are free of that baggage. So, I think, you cannot make every Telvanni responsible for the actions of those with the most power. Is that Alchemist in Balmora complicit in the slavery? She only owns that shop but is a member of House Telvanni. I wouldn't think so.
Even if there would be a majority against slavery within Telvanni lands, it would not matter, because there is no central authority that could stop the slavering magisters. If you are physically unable to stop someone from committing a crime, then you are not complicit in them committing that crime, and even if you could, you wouldn't be guilty of being complicit, but guilty of "failure to lend assistance" (not sure if that translated properly into English). Being complicit requires you to protect, encourage or shelter the criminals or lie to the authorities (which, again, don't exist). The only ones complicit are the Archmagister, the Magisters and Masters who could decide to abolish slavery in their councils, as well as the actual practitioners of slavery themselves.
So yeah, while I think it's fair to hate all the Telvanni for their system of values, I don't think it's fair to hate all Telvanni for the acts committed by those in/with power. Bringing it back to the topic of the thread, Reynila is a Telvanni who wants to end slavery, but also did not renounce her status within the House (from the looks of it, as far as we can tell). Would you blame her for what Sondivel did on account of being an active member of House Telvanni, even though she tried to stop him?
You say that the masters and magisters have a very loose social contract that guarantees the continuation of the system. Do you think that they would be able to do that without their errand boys and mercenaries dreaming of joining their ranks? I don't particularly blame the free working class, whose work just so happens to serve the Telvanni, even if they enthusiastically believe in Telvanni values. Someone who buys saltrice picked slaves is complicit in slavery, but the alternative is inconvenience to starvation (so that goes beyond Morrowind) depending on economic circumstances. But in the middle, there are ambitious people supporting the lords, who have the drive and talent work elsewhere but choose not to.
Ideally, the lords would get abandoned and replaced with people who do keep a social contract and then there'd fewer people with the freedom to commit SA with impunity*, but the individual can't accomplish that. We have examples of people working on the inside, which might prove a more productive choice until they get caught out. Reynila is one. A more modest example is an officer who works for the Kwama Consortium, pushing for better duty of care for its workers, which could get her fired.
*It's worth bearing in mind that one wouldn't have to be nearly as powerful as a magister to be in that position. So longer as the owner doesn't care, even a hireling or another slave could abuse a slave. For that matter, one free Telvanni can assault another.
Going to be painfully honest, just reading about this has really affected me this morning. The whole amnesia/abuse thing hits too closely.
I think the suggestions offered by OP are great, and could really turn this into a better experience for anyone who works with this companion. Particularly a third person view (distance), and the first point - putting more focus on him, his positive relationships and his healing.
You can't shield everyone from everything, but this game has the opportunity to touch on something as dark as this with a little grace.
BaalMelqartu wrote: »It just dawned on me that since I plan on using Sharp as my primary companion for my characters, I'm going to need to do this companion quest 7 times. Ouch.
Going to be painfully honest, just reading about this has really affected me this morning. The whole amnesia/abuse thing hits too closely.
I think the suggestions offered by OP are great, and could really turn this into a better experience for anyone who works with this companion. Particularly a third person view (distance), and the first point - putting more focus on him, his positive relationships and his healing.
You can't shield everyone from everything, but this game has the opportunity to touch on something as dark as this with a little grace.
First up, I'm sorry you have those kinds of feelings and thoughts brought up. You're not alone. It sucks, but I just wanted to mention there's probably a whole lot of us in solidarity. Take care.
My biggest question here is not that darker content is present (should absolutely have CWs though) but the way it is handled. I really don't like when a nasty trauma story is used to fast-track a bond with a character.
Too often (in general, not ESO specifically) we get stories that both wallow in nastiness (implied or overt) and then condemn it, but it still comes across as voyeuristic because of all that darned wallowing in the first place. It is okay for Sharp to have a backstory relevant to the world and racial situations, but it also reads as narrative designed to exploit the player's emotions (and potentially own history) which is not a great narrative choice, imo.
In the base game, there's a small quest where we get a bad guy killing optionin Deshaan, where a choice made with a certain cinnamon-perfumed person might result in their untimely demise, and the option to strike and kill the NPC in question feels good at the time. But it doesn't undo her murder, or the player's role in her getting murdered. The time I messed up that quest was a long time ago, and it still irks me whenever I think about it.Killing a bad guy feels good briefly, but if there isn't any serious effort to address and repair the damage they have done, it is a short-lived feeling.
I have seen this post or discussions about it on several platforms so far (Twitter, Youtube, Reddit, here...), and given the subject matter, I wanted to check the community's stance on it.
All I have to say is... I am kind of disappointed. A lot of people are responding to these suggestions negatively, seemingly without actually reading the points despite being well laid out.
"Just don't play it if you don't like it", "grow thicker skin", "dark subject matter is good"...
Really, guys? This is not about stopping ZoS from telling a story, especially one that brings attention to something that lacks representation. It is about making this representation better. Many people have seemingly chosen to build a strawman and be outraged at it instead of hearing the very valid plight that a questline about a SA victim would be much better if it also focused on the healing that comes after it.
No one that I'm aware of is asking for the quest to be entirely rewritten, just for the writers to explore dark subject matter in a way that can be meaningful for many. This is not a throwaway comment in a random NPC's dialogue, it's the focus of a whole questline.
As for a content warning, I would personally dislike it if I where to get one just as I about to start a quest. However a clear content warning when you install the game would be a nice compromise in my opinion.
I have seen this post or discussions about it on several platforms so far (Twitter, Youtube, Reddit, here...), and given the subject matter, I wanted to check the community's stance on it.
All I have to say is... I am kind of disappointed. A lot of people are responding to these suggestions negatively, seemingly without actually reading the points despite being well laid out.
"Just don't play it if you don't like it", "grow thicker skin", "dark subject matter is good"...
Really, guys? This is not about stopping ZoS from telling a story, especially one that brings attention to something that lacks representation. It is about making this representation better. Many people have seemingly chosen to build a strawman and be outraged at it instead of hearing the very valid plight that a questline about a SA victim would be much better if it also focused on the healing that comes after it.
No one that I'm aware of is asking for the quest to be entirely rewritten, just for the writers to explore dark subject matter in a way that can be meaningful for many. This is not a throwaway comment in a random NPC's dialogue, it's the focus of a whole questline.
Also a heads up about the subject matter discussed in the quest hurts no one, and I'd very much rather have my immersion briefly broken by this than by someone riding around a hooved disco ball.
It's also good to see that I'm not the only one who finds it a bit yikes for the quests of our first Khajiit and Argonians to involve slavery to varying degrees...
BaalMelqartu wrote: »It just dawned on me that since I plan on using Sharp as my primary companion for my characters, I'm going to need to do this companion quest 7 times. Ouch.
I watched Nefas play through the quest, and I can't pretend to know what it's like for a survivor of SA, so I can't speak for them. As a player of an M rated game, I honestly didn't see the content to be as explicit as others have stated. The only thing that made me cringe was that book the villain wrote. On first glance I wasn't sure if the tongue part was not referring to Sharp's sassy back talking as it could be taken that way too, and the villain might have been obsessed simply because Sharp was the most defiant of his slaves and he wanted to control someone with that kind of willpower. I know that is not the intent, but if that book was rewritten, ZOS could easily alter the narrative to fit this less offensive version and leave it up to the interpretation of the player.
I don't know how that would change the impact of the story. All I know is I did not find the quest to be as bad as I feared from all this feedback, but again I'm stating that I'm not a survivor and I don't know what the triggers could be for something like that, nor should survivors be gaslighted for the way they feel. I do feel like dark themes should not be avoided because this is a rated M game, and also those explorations can bring awareness (and if handled correctly, maybe catharsis) for the full condition of humanity. Pretending the forest is not on fire when it is will not make the fire go away, and neither will the darkness in humanity go away by pretending it's not there and making everything Disney.
I do agree there needs to be more added to show Sharp is healing, not just in a letter you can put in your house, but in quest form also. Make it possible to skip the memory sequence for those who are triggered by it (I didn't see anything offensive in it except for one line the villain said which could be removed). The ending did seem rushed and not satisfying. I would prefer more being added to Sharp himself and his own healing than altering the narrative in the way I suggested above. That would mean bringing the actor back for some extra lines. Probably won't happen, but that would be my wish as a player going through this quest.
Can we stop pretending like this is an M rated game everywhere in the world? It's not. It's rated 16 in Germany. Just because it's considered M in your country doesn't mean that anything automatically goes now.
Edit: I am not talking to you in particular btw, I just saw several comments under Nefas' video pointing towards the "M rating". Dark topics can definitely be handled in ESO even with that 16 rating and I think this didn't cross that line, but it's kind of gross when the worst part of this quest exists inside a plot hole and doesn't actually serve a greater narrative purpose. Then it just feels unnecessary.
I hear what you said in that you are not talking to me in particular, but I do feel the need to say (since you quoted me and that does make me feel involved) that I do not think anything should "just go" because it is M rated in my country (and no I didn't know it had different ratings in other countries). I would never think anything should just go and we should just get as gory and raunchy as we wish. I'd probably leave any game that went in that direction.
Yeah, but every now and then I hear people criticizing ZOS for not calling a spade a spade when it's supposed to be an M rated game. Seeing you making a mention of its rating like that, simply caused me to share my opinion on it as a "by the way". I realized that it might look like I am putting words in your mouth, hence the edit I made.
Especially when it comes to depictions of abuse I can see the German rating going from 16 to 18. Sexual content is fine here so long as it's not pornographic but excessive violence usually is what ups that rating. ESO's cartoon violence doesn't qualify, but if they explicitly say or show what someone like Sharp has experienced, even if it doesn't involve gore, and how that messes with him mentally, then yeah, I too would worry about the rating going towards 18. So yeah, lots of reasons for ZOS to not call a spade a spade. That they made the attempt at all is good! It's just sad how in the ending was rushed and how that undermined the seriousness of it all.
Edit: fixed typo
This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr
Telvanni famously do whatever they like.
I also want to put out this lore book example as well.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Telvanni_Requirements
The emphasis on physical appearance for the women (and two of the men, the rest noted to be used for physical labor), makes it pretty obvious that they're going to be....used....a certain way in these "events".
As a side note, I've always wanted to kill Llarel Telvanni (the author of this note). It would be very nice to have him/her dead. Just saying.
EDIT: Forums giving me difficulty in posting an actual link, so you might have to copy/paste it in the url bar.
I'd argue that they would learn little from death.
On the other hand they don't get many visitors in the Halls of Torment, but there's always room for a few more … permanent residents.