olsborg wrote: »

Proccsets seem to be all ZOS wants to be meta, its terrible.

It's been like that for a while now and I believe it has a lot to do with wanting "newer" players to not feel so overwhelmed. They've been constantly trying to close the skill gap and it is nothing but annoying to the PvP community.

I think I misunderstood @Crow_IX at first in this thread. But they are not wrong with a lot of what they are saying, IMO

OBJnoob wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I disagree that Xing is harder than before. On one hand perhaps there are less new players and more vets (of varying skill levels,) than there used to be. So finding people to X might be slightly more rare. But the DOING is arguably easier. The nerf to light attacks and DoTs helps a lot actually in weathering the storm, keeping resources up while kiting. Also the options for snare removal and speed are higher than theyve ever been-- which help the solo player quite a bit.

The combination of those two things coupled with the lag and performance issues that have always been around make it difficult for the X to land single target abilities on the 1. You can run through large swarms of players relatively untouched, lure them up a staircase, and AoE them 3 at a time.

I'm not trying to construe it that the 1 has an advantage over the X I'm just saying the playstyle is still fine if you're good enough. And the tank meta helps as well. Sure, there are people that aren't necessarily great players who tank up to the point where 1 person can't kill them. And this hurts an Xing attempt. But it's a little silly complaining about people being so tanky when you yourself are running around 15 players who can't kill you. It is the 1 benefitting from the tank meta not the X.

How do you figure? They've nerfed self heals and sustain to the point where you damn near need at least a small group. They added cast times because apparently ani canceling was too good then they tried nerfing bash canceling and then they tried nerfing weaving. All of which damages action per minute so fights are unnecessarily dragged on longer for no reason other than giving lower level players a bit more of a chance. CC removals don't matter when there are so many thing that snare and cc you now. Especially with ice wardens and dks being verry good at cc'ing right now. Even worse, removing cc's also removes cc immunity so you just instantly get cc'd again, what sense does that even make?

Performance isn't something that needs to be addressed, we all know how bad that is. It's just an become a part of the game at this point.

The tank meta has nothing to do with it. As a 1vX'er the players should be very familiar with choosing their target and picking their fights. When an ex'r dies because of a wrong decision they should be self-aware of it. What sucks about ex'ing now is the meta builds lower level players will use make the game so much easier for them and harder for an ex'er. Proc damage and cc sets especially when fighting more than one player at a time becomes very difficult to deal with. I'm sure the debate of whether or not 1vX'ing is easier now may boil down to class and build. Do you want to run the same high tier cheese and build as other players or do you want to rely on skill and experience, but even in a high performing build, I'd say 1vX'ing is still very difficult due to the tools available to all players.

They nerfed self heals? How? Class burst heals have gotten stronger and stronger-- you can't spit around here without hitting someone complaining about wardens, dks, and nbs healing to full with one click. Or maybe you spit on someone complaining about vigor instead.

But that's hardly the point since MY point was that due to lag and other performance issues an Xer can run right through a group of 5 or 10 people and take hardly any damage. It's really less about healing and more about moving so fast people can't hit you.

CC isn't out of control for those that know what they're doing. For every person complaining about lack of CC immunity or having to break free multiple times there's another DK or Warden that seems to run 100mph and can't be slowed down. Guess what? The people who can't break free are the Xed. The guy who can't be stopped is the Xer.

Performance is very much a part of Xing it always has been. People that go out there solo and pull off Xes every night... They probably have less issue with performance than others. Have you watched X clips? Do you see them get bogged down in endless CCs? Do you see them missing combos because they pressed a button but nothing happened? No. You don't. So you already know I'm right. You can either let me explain how I'm right or you can just keep fighting me on it. The Xers will still X.

My final point to address is the "tank meta" and the "cheese builds." Like YOU already said, any Xer should be familiar with their targets. So that's 75% of the answer right there. But here's the other 25%, and what I hope will be a humbling experience for some people. 50% of skill in this game is knowing how to build and the other 50% is reaction time and pushing right buttons. The Xer is already using a meta or near-meta build. Always. ALWAYS. That's how they do what they do. The very most talented players in this game are also the ones that discover bugs and OP combinations first. And they use them. It wasn't a bunch of crappy players using savage werewolf that got stamsorc nerfed and the gear set fixed-- it was excellent players deleting people. It isn't crappy players wearing DC that made it a problem it's good ones deleting people. It isn't crappy players with near 100% uptime on Corrosive that's the problem... It's good ones deleting people.

If you put a crappy players in good gear and now you can't deal with them then guess what? They weren't as crappy as you thought, and you were giving yourself entirely too much credit. Go find someone else to X, because this person has a build now, and you can't "out play" them anymore.

There are still bad players out there though... And also ones for whom the game doesn't work as well. You can find them right here on the forums. They're the ones complaining that healing isn't good. Saying siege is too strong. Saying CC is out of control.

Class heals? So you're saying it's okay for everything else to be bad i.e. vigor and rally, so long as we have a class burst heal? WHICH by the way, is a magika morph and further forcing the hybrid meta. Is that what you are saying? The whole point of this original post is that being forced to play into this bs hybrid meta is stupid and almost nothing makes sense. Why is a combat core value "play the way you want" yet we cant efficiently play stamblade brawler. No, not gank blade. No, not hybrid with healthy offering, merciless resolve and concealed weapon, which I don't understand how that's a hybrid it's really just a magblade.

Lag and performance issues have never benefited anyone, especially 1vX'ers. In what way does moving fast avoid getting hit? In a 1vX situation you think there will not be ranged abilities or gap closers? CC's and snares? "just move fast don't get hit"? Do you mean kite and run away? Because the game has become a lot more "run away" than before when it comes to numbers and that is an issue. While the game continues to go through its changes constantly closing the skill gap the amount of players that forces you to run is reducing.

Do you even understand the mechanics of CC and snares and immunity? CC and snares do not share immunity and the immunity only last 6 seconds which honestly never seems to actually last 6 seconds but I'll do some testing on that for you. Other than that we have cc immunity pots which are the best way to counter it but also force you to run specific said immovable pots which are also considerably cheese considering fights all rely on being able to cc your opponent. But I guess a much lighter cheese. I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of the game at this point.

If performance is working properly that is the only time all, let me say again, ALL players are benefited by performance. However 1vX'ers do not gain an upper hand, not in the slightest. I'm not sure where or how you came up with this, but it's by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen. I need hard evidence that lag benefits a 1vX'er. That's all I can say about performance

Your final thoughts are very skewed. You think these over performing sets only over performed for good players? I know some good players who would run them because they over performed but also made it a point to prove that it was over performing. There were many good players who would not run them as well because they were over performing. Nothing was nerfed because of good player other then bugs and exploits i.e. skills or cp not working as intended. These sets you are talking about were nerfed do to their excessive use by a mass population and the fact that it was over performing. Your idea of "good players" also seem fairly skewed as I would not define a player who goes out of their way to find a build where the sets essentially do all the damage for them or nullify the opponents ability to fight back as a "good player". With all this being said, it was in fact because bad players were running certain sets or builds that got them nerfed, due to how easy it made the game for them. The game will always have over performing sets and it is just a theory but I personally believe that the devs intentionally have these so that way inexperienced players can try to keep up with good players. Considering how long we have been dealing with these issues now.

All in all it was never my intention to fight you on this. 1vX is in a weird state and its no secret that the devs have been trying to cater to the less skilled player base. 1vX is not impossible for the right class and build but allow me to reinstate the original topic of this whole post, why should I as a player, a consumer, be forced into playing a hybrid or meta build and why can't I play the way I want to? For example a dw/2h stamblade without spin to win. Can I actually? Sure, i guess? But its not effective. Performance and bis meta builds are all obstacles for players who want to play a certain way. Is it my fault for not following meta? Sure, but didn't ZOS just say that playing the way you want to play is a core value? In the past the build and play style was very effective and fun and I cant understand why devs would take options like that away from us. (I mean its not like it was a overly popular playstyle for nb. taking into account how many gankers there are).

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX There was a video posted recently of a NB doing a 1v65 and I don't think he was using invisibility at all. So... There's that. If you want to see it you can find it in the "nerf assassin's will" thread. The video was posted a week or two ago.

You're misunderstanding him the same way I was. When he's saying brawler blade, he's meaning a primarily stamina NB brawler. He's talking about being forced to hybrid and use specific sets in order to be competitive, and he's not wrong. The meta is really quite narrow right now

Sahidom wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

As a mag sorc main. I jumped on stam nb and immediately felt how overpowered it is in comparison. I was destroying people in 2 to 3 hits. I have no idea how are not doing enough damage. What are you currently using

balorgh, night mother, and third set changes around. sprigs, order's wrath, shieldbreak, automatons, senche, stunhs, briarheart, and i'm sure there are a few more that i commonly swap around mix and match. but its usually raw damage sets stacked up.

I have a real-life friend who's main PVP character has been a Nightblade since 2014. He is probably in the top 3% of players that know the class intimately, as well as an uncanny talent to identifying animations on what his opponent is doing during combat for immediate counters. I am not dressing the guy up either; I would bet my buddy knows the class better than ZOS's own developers.

All those sets you listed are not used. You could but the results may be disappointing. I could tell you with fact after the years of playing with this guy's Nightblade that you do not need proc damage sets to land the killing blow.

Cauldron's Legacy is really a crutch given to you by ESO while the proc damage does hit hard. Some players are using Stygian to boost their damage coming out of stealth, whereas Archer's Mind delivers much better results from Stealth than this set.

What I could tell you without disclosing my friend's build is this, the guy can dirt nap players with 2-3 GCD without reliance on proc set damage. Even while watching him stream his gameplay on discord with me. I could tell you that having 30k+ health, max resistance, and buffed with any protection buffs does not protect you enough. He can and frequently does send people to the grave by the third global cooldown. Those who "attempt to block damage" will have their Stamina pool crushed than immediately ganked. He laughs at "Werewolf" boys that come out strong trying to kill him but end up running away to be killed from a "knife in the back."

I am not joking or boasting either, it's scary how well he knows the class. He knows what sets are being used against him by the performance of his opponent, and when he discovers a player is using a meta PVP build than he enjoys killing them over and over, as he believes he's teaching them to be a better player than relying on a streamer's build. He is also against those who were running macro combat combos, he would target them and keep them in the BG res spot to let the other players have a fair match - my friend believes macros are cheating and should be "timed" out to sit on the bench.

The point to this long post is that Nightblade class is not overperforming. They do perform very well when you've learned and know the class intimately, and how to pull passive synergy into gameplay with sets. Anyone who's still using proc damage to be competitive in PVP relies on the crutch. There are only two areas of focus any Nightblade should be pushing on their sheet, and those who learn it will understand how overperforming they become on a Nightblade. ESO would break their entire game to correct the overperformance, and none of their past combat changes impacted how fast my buddy can kill you.

I can share with fact that my friend does not need proc damage to kill the target whether he uses one or two bars for skill choices, he does not need but 3. Anymore just makes him that damn slippery to catch.

That's cool and all and I'm happy for your friend. I'm sure he is enjoying his time in PvP. But allow me to reiterate that my issue lies with not being able to play how you want to play. We cant even play half the way we used to be able to play. I'm not trying to play some high burst hit n run gank blade, I would love to be able to play a brawling nb again. Not to assume your friend relies on ganks but by the sounds of it he heavily relies on stealth. The game just isn't what it used to be and it continues to get worse and worse. We've had a lot taken away from us meanwhile the players less skilled at the game are given more options, i.e. proc sets as you've mentioned, and it's overly frustrating at this point. I can tell you that I have been playing ESO since it's launch on console and only a year later came to PC and I can't tell you how disheartening it is to see this game's massive decline.