Currently a weird meta...

PhoenixGrey

Crow_IX wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Necro is one of the weaker classes right now
Nb is one of the stronger

How do you figure? In what sense?

I figure as every single extremely skilled and knowledgeable pvper I know says the same thing.

I'm not going to break down the passives and bonuses of each class, but if you took a look at them you'd understand why.

Also, recently necro has even received survival/healing nerfs while nb has received offensive and defensive buffs.

Bottom line necro is one of the weaker classes and nb is one of the stronger. This isn't remotely up for debate.

so your argument is based off what you hear and who you deem "good player"? how interesting. in what way has nb survivability been buffed? nb may be high damage and in a good spot, so long as you use the magika version of the abilities. in which why should i be forced to play magika or hybrid? I'm not sure who these "good players" are but necro is still very survivable, very sustain able and damage feels just fine. where as nb is just squishy and relies on a hit and run playstyle this meta, which is difficult because myself and a few others have been experiencing what i assume to be dots or maybe proc dots pulling us out of stealth instantly making 1-2vX kind of impossible (in a non gank fight).

I am still not seeing what all the fuss is about a million counters to cloak

If you use cloak and shade properly you are pretty much unkillable in open world.

Guess what, even if you aren’t able to use 2 simple skills properly, you have the 2nd best burst heal in the game

IMO nb is the best class for offense, defense and mobility and several leagues above any other class

There is nothing another class can do which nb cannot do better

OBJnoob

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

I disagree with you a lot, but you are nicer than I am lol. You are right though. NB, even a brawler; feels different than other classes it's ultimately what I'm running alternating with Necro since I no longer find what I want from Templar

Crow_IX

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Necro is one of the weaker classes right now
Nb is one of the stronger

How do you figure? In what sense?

I figure as every single extremely skilled and knowledgeable pvper I know says the same thing.

I'm not going to break down the passives and bonuses of each class, but if you took a look at them you'd understand why.

Also, recently necro has even received survival/healing nerfs while nb has received offensive and defensive buffs.

Bottom line necro is one of the weaker classes and nb is one of the stronger. This isn't remotely up for debate.

so your argument is based off what you hear and who you deem "good player"? how interesting. in what way has nb survivability been buffed? nb may be high damage and in a good spot, so long as you use the magika version of the abilities. in which why should i be forced to play magika or hybrid? I'm not sure who these "good players" are but necro is still very survivable, very sustain able and damage feels just fine. where as nb is just squishy and relies on a hit and run playstyle this meta, which is difficult because myself and a few others have been experiencing what i assume to be dots or maybe proc dots pulling us out of stealth instantly making 1-2vX kind of impossible (in a non gank fight).

I am still not seeing what all the fuss is about a million counters to cloak

If you use cloak and shade properly you are pretty much unkillable in open world.

Guess what, even if you aren’t able to use 2 simple skills properly, you have the 2nd best burst heal in the game

IMO nb is the best class for offense, defense and mobility and several leagues above any other class

There is nothing another class can do which nb cannot do better

Cloak and shade are good but by no means make you unkillable. Not even close. Especially with the game being as low performance as it is, you'll often find yourself getting hit by single target abilities mid dodge roll and in the first second of cloak which will bring you out of stealth, rending that cloak useless as a defensive tool doing that moment in the fight, where most people would use it to let the hots tic or create distance.

I'm not sure where you get the idea abilities are being used wrong? However you're again leaning towards forcing a magika or hybrid build. Which is the problem here. "Best or second best heal", okay, so I slot a high burst magika heal but then I have to account for sustaining for that. On top of that you completely ignored the fact that the better morphs for nbs this meta are again, magika morphs. "Nb's are the best damage" okay? But the problem is I can't effectively play a stamina nightblade. Yet here you are making all these claims with no real solution or even compelling arguments. All your claims are just that, claims.

I'm glad you are able to state it as an opinion but NBs are very lack luster in defense. Escape tools, are not defense. You're not even trying to be convincing at this point. Were are the builds, the combos, the examples? If I didn't know any better I'd say you were just annoyed that nbs escape from you or gank you and called them "the best".

Streak, darkdeal - cloak, shade. vamps stealth sprint - cloak. two examples of other classes being able to do exactly what nbs do. "How, it's not the same skill therefore it's not the same?", well I'm glad you asked. They are both ways to regain some resources and or create distance, the same exact reason cloak and shade are used. Plus every class has things theyre good at. DKs are godly crowd controllers, wardens are really good at playing both support and offense and so on. Although templars seem to be in a bit of a rough patch but I hope they get things turned around soon.

Crow_IX

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

PhoenixGrey

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

OBJnoob

@Crow_IX I can sympathize. Like I said I'm a really bad NB. The only time that wasn't true I was playing a brawler. But then they nerfed Dark Cloak -sniff-

TechMaybeHic

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

Didn't you post In Reacts thread where he killed 65 players? You know he wasn't using cloak or shadow image, right?

I'm using similar with just different sets. No problem. Far above viable

PhoenixGrey

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

Didn't you post In Reacts thread where he killed 65 players? You know he wasn't using cloak or shadow image, right?

I'm using similar with just different sets. No problem. Far above viable

I am not as good as you or React to play without cloak and do incredibly well

However, ZOS has lowered the nb ceiling so low like giving a burst heal and Uber damage that even noobs like me can perform decently.

I have 1vx’d with my sorc without streak or dark conversion back in murkmire when shields actually worked. Doesn’t mean it was optimal for newer players

TechMaybeHic

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

Didn't you post In Reacts thread where he killed 65 players? You know he wasn't using cloak or shadow image, right?

I'm using similar with just different sets. No problem. Far above viable

I am not as good as you or React to play without cloak and do incredibly well

However, ZOS has lowered the nb ceiling so low like giving a burst heal and Uber damage that even noobs like me can perform decently.

I have 1vx’d with my sorc without streak or dark conversion back in murkmire when shields actually worked. Doesn’t mean it was optimal for newer players

I shouldn't be in the same sentence as React, honestly. I generally don't play other than when hanging out with friends and that's usually 3-7 and up to a lot more particularly during guild events. Think I've only been out solo once in the past month. Still works well for me

Now for the OP, who sounds like they want to run solo regularly; they'll need to be closer to as good as React or others. And yes; if you are not using LOS, you're better off with cloak and shadow image

Elendir2am

I think that a lot of players misunderstood gankblade power. It isn't about jumping and kill anyone. It is about be the one, who choose with whom and in any circumstance to fight. There is a lot of NB I see only one time, because they discard me from their target list.

I tested NB one time in past without proper build. I failed at first with it because I expected too much from cloak, but when I fully understand that cloak is about strategy, not about easy kill, I started to kill stronger player then I was, because I prepared favourable circumstances for me.

Crow_IX

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

Nb was indeed not built to be a brawler. However good players were capable of making it one. And that is where the issue lies. The whole "play how you want to play is one of our core combat beliefs" or what ever. Meanwhile solo play, brawler nb and many other playstyles were completely destroyed.

This is true, Nb and sorc have tools that make for similar mobility. But Not everyone wants to play a hit and run playstyle.

I think that is the issue, what is viable this patch and even the past few how really narrowed down the game to specific playstyles which makes the game hard for people who don't dont to play certain ways i.e. running a ton of proc sets, or running a overperforming set like rallying cry due to the fact that it is overperforming.

Crow_IX

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Crow_IX wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX Honestly some people are better at some classes than others. Your natural playstyle and just... What makes sense to you to do and when... Can synergize much better with some toolsets than others.

Myself? I'm a pretty terrible NB. But I know I'm trash so I don't judge the class on how well I do I judge it by how well I see others do.

You? Might be a very good necromancer. Honestly I'd focus on that if I were you. It is much more rewarding to be good on a non-meta class than on a meta class anyway.

This is a fair point but my issue lies with not being able to play the way I want or even the way I used to play. I really enjoyed being the brawliing nb who didn't run from fights. Now the game just feels more like you're out matched if you're not playing a specific way, a way that everyone else is playing.

Nb was never built to be a brawler

Nb without cloak and shade is a sorc without streak and dark deal

Both are suboptimal and not viable imo

Didn't you post In Reacts thread where he killed 65 players? You know he wasn't using cloak or shadow image, right?

I'm using similar with just different sets. No problem. Far above viable

I am not as good as you or React to play without cloak and do incredibly well

However, ZOS has lowered the nb ceiling so low like giving a burst heal and Uber damage that even noobs like me can perform decently.

I have 1vx’d with my sorc without streak or dark conversion back in murkmire when shields actually worked. Doesn’t mean it was optimal for newer players

I shouldn't be in the same sentence as React, honestly. I generally don't play other than when hanging out with friends and that's usually 3-7 and up to a lot more particularly during guild events. Think I've only been out solo once in the past month. Still works well for me

Now for the OP, who sounds like they want to run solo regularly; they'll need to be closer to as good as React or others. And yes; if you are not using LOS, you're better off with cloak and shadow image

Be as good as? the whole situation is "why am I forced to play this way" or "why am I forced use certain builds". Pay attention to React's video, he is running rallying cry a very over performing set this current patch and he is also a "hybrid" but he uses all the magika morphs, which are the better morphs this time around. My issue is that stamina night blade feels very lack luster, almost to the point where its not good at all.

Crow_IX

Elendir2am wrote: »

I think that a lot of players misunderstood gankblade power. It isn't about jumping and kill anyone. It is about be the one, who choose with whom and in any circumstance to fight. There is a lot of NB I see only one time, because they discard me from their target list.

I tested NB one time in past without proper build. I failed at first with it because I expected too much from cloak, but when I fully understand that cloak is about strategy, not about easy kill, I started to kill stronger player then I was, because I prepared favourable circumstances for me.

I've been messing with nb for a while now and I have yet to figure out how to make a dw/2h brawler viable this patch. It worked very well before although was a challenge but this time around it just feels like it's not viable at all. Sure you can get a kill, but mobility and survivability feel so low and single target abilities or maybe the dots seem to pull you from stealth makes it very hard to play in outnumbered situations. Which is my issue. Why would ZOS come out with a core combat values post stating "play the way you want to play" is important to them yet solo play and other playstyles have nearly been gutted.

Crow_IX

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Crow_IX I can sympathize. Like I said I'm a really bad NB. The only time that wasn't true I was playing a brawler. But then they nerfed Dark Cloak -sniff-

I do miss the old dark cloak. Made Nb much more interesting.

Casul

Coming back to PS/NA recently, damage feels huge. Lag too.

MEBengalsFan2001

Being a NB, DK, and Warden with a frost staff are the new meta.

My templar that isn't using a singular piece of defensive gear can't compete with any of these class because they have better tools for CC or higher damage. Rarely am I alive going 1v1 against these class. And the players I run against run 1 defensive and 1 offensive.

When I go 1 offensive and 1 defensive I stay alive longer but due to DK and Warden great heals, recovery and CC it ends in a stale mate or I am dead.

Going against a NB I'm dead unless I have someone else to help detect them and provide buffs/heals.

NB is the strongest damage wise. DK does good damage but also has some nice CC effects. Wardens are the best with healing and CC effects.

Sergykid

it's so cringe whenever these 1v2000 are arguments when supposedly these 2000 are 1k cp or lower, probably 20k hp snipe spammers.

show real enemies 1vX and then use that as argument, show proper enemies.
for example a nb, or anyone actually, can't survive two good players, and that's good.

exception right now may be the dk with his mobile meditate that also aoe slows, which allows him to survive 2 or even 3 around a pillar.

katorga

Sergykid wrote: »

it's so cringe whenever these 1v2000 are arguments when supposedly these 2000 are 1k cp or lower, probably 20k hp snipe spammers.

show real enemies 1vX and then use that as argument, show proper enemies.
for example a nb, or anyone actually, can't survive two good players, and that's good....
.

To be honest, not many people can 1vX a coordinated ball group, no matter how good they are.

1xX between equal caliber players, numbers will always win.

"Real Enemies" means the majority of players, that means at minimum the bottom 51%, realistically bottom 80%, of population. A 1vX build that decimates those players is smart and efficient.

Crow_IX

katorga wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

it's so cringe whenever these 1v2000 are arguments when supposedly these 2000 are 1k cp or lower, probably 20k hp snipe spammers.

show real enemies 1vX and then use that as argument, show proper enemies.
for example a nb, or anyone actually, can't survive two good players, and that's good....
.

To be honest, not many people can 1vX a coordinated ball group, no matter how good they are.

1xX between equal caliber players, numbers will always win.

"Real Enemies" means the majority of players, that means at minimum the bottom 51%, realistically bottom 80%, of population. A 1vX build that decimates those players is smart and efficient.

Ever since roughly 4 years ago maybe, 1vXing has become increasingly difficult against even non coordinated ball groups. Almost every solo player should know by now to avoid the coordinated groups. Anyone who can 1vX in this current meta is very much using a meta bis build. i.e. hybrid nb using magika morphs because stam morphs aren't as good. Or players running rallying cry due to the fact it is overperforming. It's not smart or efficient, its just players using everything they can with nothing in mind other than performing better than other players, completely disregard how the current state of the game is bad and how all these changes have negatively effected PvP.

Sergykid

katorga wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

it's so cringe whenever these 1v2000 are arguments when supposedly these 2000 are 1k cp or lower, probably 20k hp snipe spammers.

show real enemies 1vX and then use that as argument, show proper enemies.
for example a nb, or anyone actually, can't survive two good players, and that's good....
.

1xX between equal caliber players, numbers will always win.

in bgs not always. Occasionally there is 1v2-3 good players where the 1 wins, also even a stalemate in a 1v3 is a soft win because i alone survive 3 of strong u

TechMaybeHic

I've seen better players than me get Xed because they tunnel visioned or something and if we're talking about Reacts video; I've seen him make a lot of players I think are good look silly. Sure; not 65 of them obviously, but that's a very extreme end of a wide randge of "X"

Hesperax79

Elendir2am wrote: »

I think that a lot of players misunderstood gankblade power. It isn't about jumping and kill anyone. It is about be the one, who choose with whom and in any circumstance to fight.

Absolutely agree! The gankblade are not a knight in shiny armour, who shout a challenge and attack you face-to-face. If you play with gankblade you are a hunter. And as every hunter we seek the vulnerable pray.

Like this:
https://youtu.be/_l98VwDC5zg

OBJnoob

I disagree that Xing is harder than before. On one hand perhaps there are less new players and more vets (of varying skill levels,) than there used to be. So finding people to X might be slightly more rare. But the DOING is arguably easier. The nerf to light attacks and DoTs helps a lot actually in weathering the storm, keeping resources up while kiting. Also the options for snare removal and speed are higher than theyve ever been-- which help the solo player quite a bit.

The combination of those two things coupled with the lag and performance issues that have always been around make it difficult for the X to land single target abilities on the 1. You can run through large swarms of players relatively untouched, lure them up a staircase, and AoE them 3 at a time.

I'm not trying to construe it that the 1 has an advantage over the X I'm just saying the playstyle is still fine if you're good enough. And the tank meta helps as well. Sure, there are people that aren't necessarily great players who tank up to the point where 1 person can't kill them. And this hurts an Xing attempt. But it's a little silly complaining about people being so tanky when you yourself are running around 15 players who can't kill you. It is the 1 benefitting from the tank meta not the X.

MEBengalsFan2001

Best way to resolve the current meta...

Make roles based adjustment to stats in PVP zones.
Enforce armor type restriction based on role selected - For instance damage dealers cannot have more than 1 heavy piece of armor equipped.
Make it so healing is only based on the player resource pool
Update CC immunity to include soft CC
Update CC immunity abilities to include Soft and Hard CC and update all cost of all CC immunity abilities to cost 4.5K resource per a use.
.

OBJnoob

Blanketed restrictions and strict role enforcement are not the way to fix anything-- it is the way to ruin creativity, build crafting, and playing how you want.

We must continue to slog through the same bull crap balancing act as we always have, hoping things get better. We should not throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say.

I am interested in fixing THIS game, not in turning this game into something that doesn't resemble itself.

People need to calm WAY down about things they don't like.

TechMaybeHic

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Best way to resolve the current meta...

Make roles based adjustment to stats in PVP zones.
Enforce armor type restriction based on role selected - For instance damage dealers cannot have more than 1 heavy piece of armor equipped.
Make it so healing is only based on the player resource pool
Update CC immunity to include soft CC
Update CC immunity abilities to include Soft and Hard CC and update all cost of all CC immunity abilities to cost 4.5K resource per a use.
.

There are a lot of trinity based games for you to chose from and play if that's what you want. I'd rather not

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

Blanketed restrictions and strict role enforcement are not the way to fix anything-- it is the way to ruin creativity, build crafting, and playing how you want.

We must continue to slog through the same bull crap balancing act as we always have, hoping things get better. We should not throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say.

I am interested in fixing THIS game, not in turning this game into something that doesn't resemble itself.

People need to calm WAY down about things they don't like.

If you believe it or not, there were way more options to play your character in pvp few years back than right now

All these recent changes including hybridization have started pigeonholing players more than ever

It’s also one of the reasons for a low skill ceiling which has made 1vX harder.

NB is the only class which can 1vX effectively at this point. When the rest catch up to this point there will be no reason to play another class

OBJnoob

I think Wardens and DKs can X just fine, and some really good players can do it on other classes as well. But my post about the state of Xing isn't what you quoted.

As for the rest-- I don't disagree with you-- and I don't think what you said contradicts what I said. I agree that there was more diversity a while ago than there is now. But I still think the person who I was responding to proposed an idea that would make it even worse.

olsborg

Proccsets seem to be all ZOS wants to be meta, its terrible.