Troodon80 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

I did a breakdown over here. I'm not going to copy paste it, if you want to read it you can head over there and see it.

In that post, I was using Burning Spellweave and Tzogvin and hitting on average 44k on Live. With the same overall build but one skill swapped out, I was on 38k.

I've been going at it all day with comparing builds from Live to PTS. Relequen and Tzogvin are getting the overall best for me given the penetration one needs to account for on the 3m dummy that they don't need to account for with the trial dummy. Bahsei/Riptide are close seconds over Relequen. I also use Slimecraw x1 piece with Kilt, but tried a few parses with Skoria x1 piece and Kilt. Not much of a difference.

On the back bar, tried Maelstrom Inferno Staff, Two-Hander, and Bow, with only negligible differences between them, but getting consistent 40k~45k parses now depending on the sets. On Live, it's a choice between Two-Hander and Inferno Staff, as the Bow's duration (and Maelstrom bonus, which makes it viable because of the extended DoT duration) just doesn't warrant running it for the cost. Two-Hander is the better of the two considering overall sustain of not using the trial atronach (for buffs and synergies). Front bar, tried using Inferno Staff or Dual Wield. There's about 2k in favour of dual wield. Still using Nirnhoned and Charged. Precise just didn't get the results since my critical rating was already around 65% average and ~70% maximum. The same setups on Live are hitting 50k~55k.

Overall, assuming exactly the same builds used between Live and PTS, it's an approximate 20% overall damage nerf with various factors on why that is. It's not just reduced "AoE damage and light attack damage," but tick frequency can also mean lower Berserker enchantment uptime; and in real content you'll see that much more readily, along with more downtime in, for example, Crusher from a tank or healer, which will also be a factor for your DPS in a group setting.

With a few tweaks here or there, you can bring the DPS difference down to around 15% DPS reduction from Live to PTS. Someone better at parsing would probably bring it down to maybe 11~13%.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Tested magden on 3 mil. Whorl + Tzogvin, ice staffs. 54k on live and 42 on pts.
Didn't have group on pts to test actual content so I went in vet Vateshran. On live I can do trifecta runs without much effort in about 30min. With no special setup, no Pale order or Oakensoul. On pts, it actually made me sweat. I only had time for 1 run and had 1 death but managed to clear couple of minutes to spare from 45. Also didn't use sigils.
So the content is still doable but with more effort. Because my dps was lower it made the fights longer and I had to heal more, avoid damage more and manage resources which all lowered dps even further. So for someone who can do certain content with their eyes closed, will now have to pay attention but still manage, but someone who's currently proging or struggling will have almost no chance at clearing next patch.
So get your achievements while you still can, you got 5 weeks.

Sounds about what I expected, unfortunately. You say you used warden though- how do beetles feel now to you, with the new timing of them?

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Is it a bad assumption to say that if the quoted losses are only 10 (maybe 20)% on 100k parse, and 50-60% on a 25-30k parse, then your LA and DOT were a relatively high proportion of the overall damage on the initial parse?

Treat me like a noob with little grasp for this sort of stuff.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Is it a bad assumption to say that if the quoted losses are only 10 (maybe 20)% on 100k parse, and 50-60% on a 25-30k parse, then your LA and DOT were a relatively high proportion of the overall damage on the initial parse?

Treat me like a noob with little grasp for this sort of stuff.

The basis of any rotation was to put down class aoe dot, weapon aoe dot of choice (wall of elements, crit rush, endless hail, etc), then single target dots, and then a few spammables before dots had to be reapplied. Nice and simple. Light attacks did count for a large portion of dps (too much, I will agree)... largely due to weapons like vma staff, buffs like empower, and the strongest sets requiring perfect weaving.

So.. changing dots so drastically, and class moves, is a grievous wound to dps. Nerfing light attacks would have been fair and fine, but the other nerfs are absolutely not.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Is it a bad assumption to say that if the quoted losses are only 10 (maybe 20)% on 100k parse, and 50-60% on a 25-30k parse, then your LA and DOT were a relatively high proportion of the overall damage on the initial parse?

Treat me like a noob with little grasp for this sort of stuff.

The basis of any rotation was to put down class aoe dot, weapon aoe dot of choice (wall of elements, crit rush, endless hail, etc), then single target dots, and then a few spammables before dots had to be reapplied. Nice and simple. Light attacks did count for a large portion of dps (too much, I will agree)... largely due to weapons like vma staff, buffs like empower, and the strongest sets requiring perfect weaving.

So.. changing dots so drastically, and class moves, is a grievous wound to dps. Nerfing light attacks would have been fair and fine, but the other nerfs are absolutely not.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was specifically talking about the post showing the far more drastic hit to a lower dps by @starkerealm (relative to the projected hit to a 100k dps). Is it evidence that lower dps will be far worse off than higher dps?

The values suggest to me that, for the initial 25-30k parse, dots and la were a much higher percentage of the damage than on the initial 100k parse. That's the only way I can imagine the damage hit being so so drastically different between different dps levels, though I very well could be missing something.

Yup, whilst everyone is getting hit with the nerf hammer, if you were way beyond the dps checks for that content, it still may be viable.

With the lower end players they will be close to, or under dps checks for some content. The reduction in dps is going to hit them hard as some content they only just had dps for before, will now be unattainable.

When I am referring to dps checks, I mean literal checks that can not be bypassed with mechanics. This will also apply to heal checks are are required in content too.

This is assuming that enemy health in challenging content remains the same after the nerfs though, right?

pklemming wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Is it a bad assumption to say that if the quoted losses are only 10 (maybe 20)% on 100k parse, and 50-60% on a 25-30k parse, then your LA and DOT were a relatively high proportion of the overall damage on the initial parse?

Treat me like a noob with little grasp for this sort of stuff.

The basis of any rotation was to put down class aoe dot, weapon aoe dot of choice (wall of elements, crit rush, endless hail, etc), then single target dots, and then a few spammables before dots had to be reapplied. Nice and simple. Light attacks did count for a large portion of dps (too much, I will agree)... largely due to weapons like vma staff, buffs like empower, and the strongest sets requiring perfect weaving.

So.. changing dots so drastically, and class moves, is a grievous wound to dps. Nerfing light attacks would have been fair and fine, but the other nerfs are absolutely not.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was specifically talking about the post showing the far more drastic hit to a lower dps by @starkerealm (relative to the projected hit to a 100k dps). Is it evidence that lower dps will be far worse off than higher dps?

The values suggest to me that, for the initial 25-30k parse, dots and la were a much higher percentage of the damage than on the initial 100k parse. That's the only way I can imagine the damage hit being so so drastically different between different dps levels, though I very well could be missing something.

Yup, whilst everyone is getting hit with the nerf hammer, if you were way beyond the dps checks for that content, it still may be viable.

With the lower end players they will be close to, or under dps checks for some content. The reduction in dps is going to hit them hard as some content they only just had dps for before, will now be unattainable.

When I am referring to dps checks, I mean literal checks that can not be bypassed with mechanics. This will also apply to heal checks are are required in content too.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

I'm a lower end player. I parsed 30k on live and 15k on PTS. I didn't screen shot them but I'm too disgusted to go back and do it again...

Bringing up the floor, eh Zos? 😒 Thank you for posting, Spyder. Everyone that contributes to this helps me know what to expect, as a console player.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

I'm very keen to understand the issue. Where, specifically, is the 50%-60% dps loss coming from? Nerf to dots? Changes to LA damage?

Dots are not only nerfed flatly, but their duration is also doubled, and they only tick once every two seconds.. meaning some of them, on fully geared out builds, will be showing tooltip values over just 400 damage a second or less. Combine that with class moves that were also gutted (see Templar jabs or stam sorc spammable, for instance... 40% nerfs or more, all tallied), and light attack nerfs... it's a wreck. Horrible wreck.

Is it a bad assumption to say that if the quoted losses are only 10 (maybe 20)% on 100k parse, and 50-60% on a 25-30k parse, then your LA and DOT were a relatively high proportion of the overall damage on the initial parse?

Treat me like a noob with little grasp for this sort of stuff.

The basis of any rotation was to put down class aoe dot, weapon aoe dot of choice (wall of elements, crit rush, endless hail, etc), then single target dots, and then a few spammables before dots had to be reapplied. Nice and simple. Light attacks did count for a large portion of dps (too much, I will agree)... largely due to weapons like vma staff, buffs like empower, and the strongest sets requiring perfect weaving.

So.. changing dots so drastically, and class moves, is a grievous wound to dps. Nerfing light attacks would have been fair and fine, but the other nerfs are absolutely not.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was specifically talking about the post showing the far more drastic hit to a lower dps by @starkerealm (relative to the projected hit to a 100k dps). Is it evidence that lower dps will be far worse off than higher dps?

The values suggest to me that, for the initial 25-30k parse, dots and la were a much higher percentage of the damage than on the initial 100k parse. That's the only way I can imagine the damage hit being so so drastically different between different dps levels, though I very well could be missing something.

danno8 wrote: »

My Templar parse went from 51k on the 3 mil dummy to around 38k.

My Stam Sorc went from 39k to around 26k on the 3 mil.