The Actual Dps Loss?

danno8

mmmmmmmmmmmmmimimimimimimt

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

My Templar parse went from 51k on the 3 mil dummy to around 38k.

My Stam Sorc went from 39k to around 26k on the 3 mil.

Oh ouch Sounds like, as a 50k's parser on 3 mil on live, I can expect to be "glad" to hit in the 30k's then on average with update 35... these are dps levels from 2015. Vmol release dps levels. Quite catastrophic actually...

I'm confident my Stam Sorc can go very 30k by switching Crystal Weapon out for Crushing Weapon then morphing it to Crystal Frags and getting rid of Bound Armaments. Also his gear is pretty bad. Matching sets of course but mostly blue.

But that doesn't really matter. It's the relative change. My Templar is my main and saw a 20% drop with good gear. Stam Sorc saw a drop of 40% (25% if I switched stuff up pretty sure) but it's the Stam Sorc that is more indicative of an "average" players gear.

ZoS has work to do. I hope they read all this feedback, reassess and not just go headlong through the PTS cycle.

EozZoe1989

multiplaying is at aloss beacuse solo players being over powered it was games fualt for over powering people now they fixing it,.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

danno8 wrote: »

mmmmmmmmmmmmmimimimimimimt

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

My Templar parse went from 51k on the 3 mil dummy to around 38k.

My Stam Sorc went from 39k to around 26k on the 3 mil.

Oh ouch Sounds like, as a 50k's parser on 3 mil on live, I can expect to be "glad" to hit in the 30k's then on average with update 35... these are dps levels from 2015. Vmol release dps levels. Quite catastrophic actually...

I'm confident my Stam Sorc can go very 30k by switching Crystal Weapon out for Crushing Weapon then morphing it to Crystal Frags and getting rid of Bound Armaments. Also his gear is pretty bad. Matching sets of course but mostly blue.

But that doesn't really matter. It's the relative change. My Templar is my main and saw a 20% drop with good gear. Stam Sorc saw a drop of 40% (25% if I switched stuff up pretty sure) but it's the Stam Sorc that is more indicative of an "average" players gear.

ZoS has work to do. I hope they read all this feedback, reassess and not just go headlong through the PTS cycle.

I would say I hope they do read the feedback as well, but judging by Lambert's rude tweet... I doubt they will.

KMarble

Theoretically I'm the type of player ZOS is trying to help. In practice though, I'm not. I have the knowledge and means to get better (and that was the plan until this year's updates began to be applied. I decided my time and money were better spent learning to play another game).

I don't do better DPS because 1. I'm lazy, 2. it is (so far) not necessary, 3. keeping a rhythm is both boring and hard for me.

I fought the WB near Hammerdeath Bungalow yesterday. I did 14k and change on live. Then I used the same character, without changing anything on the PTS and repeated the fight. 11k and change on PTS.

A few things that I think are relevant:
1. I haven't been playing much, so I'm rusty. Fighting that boss on live was the first thing I did yesterday. My brain needs to "warm up" so I can push the right buttons at the right time. I made way more mistakes than I'd normally do because I of that.
2. By the time I got to the PTS my brain and fingers were in agreement about what to do. I even managed to get some animation cancelling on a few of my heavy attacks which isn't something I do often.
3. The boss on live spawned 2 batches of mobs. On PTS there were no mobs nor crabs.

From my little test yesterday I lost about 22% of my DPS.

I'll post the combat metrics details on the PTS thread later today when I get to my desktop.

One last thing. In the combat preview thread it was said that the devs want to make combat better so players don't need to be looking at their bars and instead concentrate on the fight.
I seldom look at my bars on this character because I'm very well acquainted with how combat happens and what I need to do when playing her. I'll be forced to look at her bar if this change goes live (for example, I know when to reapply my wall of elements because I see it explode. When I do my rotation right, it explodes just in time for me to re-apply it. On PTS I cannot tell anymore when it is about to explode*).

Here you go. The experience of a filthy casual who enjoyed almost all aspects of the game and was planning, until last January, to finally git gud.


*Yes, I know. It's a matter of remembering how long it will last. But if you read the reason 1 why I don't do better DPS you'll see that I'm lazy.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

KMarble wrote: »

Theoretically I'm the type of player ZOS is trying to help. In practice though, I'm not. I have the knowledge and means to get better (and that was the plan until this year's updates began to be applied. I decided my time and money were better spent learning to play another game).

I don't do better DPS because 1. I'm lazy, 2. it is (so far) not necessary, 3. keeping a rhythm is both boring and hard for me.

I fought the WB near Hammerdeath Bungalow yesterday. I did 14k and change on live. Then I used the same character, without changing anything on the PTS and repeated the fight. 11k and change on PTS.

A few things that I think are relevant:
1. I haven't been playing much, so I'm rusty. Fighting that boss on live was the first thing I did yesterday. My brain needs to "warm up" so I can push the right buttons at the right time. I made way more mistakes than I'd normally do because I of that.
2. By the time I got to the PTS my brain and fingers were in agreement about what to do. I even managed to get some animation cancelling on a few of my heavy attacks which isn't something I do often.
3. The boss on live spawned 2 batches of mobs. On PTS there were no mobs nor crabs.

From my little test yesterday I lost about 22% of my DPS.

I'll post the combat metrics details on the PTS thread later today when I get to my desktop.

One last thing. In the combat preview thread it was said that the devs want to make combat better so players don't need to be looking at their bars and instead concentrate on the fight.
I seldom look at my bars on this character because I'm very well acquainted with how combat happens and what I need to do when playing her. I'll be forced to look at her bar if this change goes live (for example, I know when to reapply my wall of elements because I see it explode. When I do my rotation right, it explodes just in time for me to re-apply it. On PTS I cannot tell anymore when it is about to explode*).

Here you go. The experience of a filthy casual who enjoyed almost all aspects of the game and was planning, until last January, to finally git gud.


*Yes, I know. It's a matter of remembering how long it will last. But if you read the reason 1 why I don't do better DPS you'll see that I'm lazy.

Thank you for posting. I am hoping to get feedback from all levels of experience, and I am seeing my fears confirmed in all.

Necrotech_Master

if the dots nerf extends to all gear sets that arent mentioned in the patch notes, i think i would be looking at least 30% dps loss (i dont have the pts installed to confirm with live builds)

the most important thing about dots is tick rate and dmg per tick, and both are getting reduced to the point dps using a dot is going to go down the drain

then all the class nerfs on top of the dot nerfs arent helping

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the dots nerf extends to all gear sets that arent mentioned in the patch notes, i think i would be looking at least 30% dps loss (i dont have the pts installed to confirm with live builds)

the most important thing about dots is tick rate and dmg per tick, and both are getting reduced to the point dps using a dot is going to go down the drain

then all the class nerfs on top of the dot nerfs arent helping

That is quite true... there are far more repercussions to this than are written in the patch notes. Proc sets will either be a crutch, or obsolete altogether, depending on what is done with them. Hopefully someone with pts access can check some proc sets and provide feedback.

KMarble

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Thank you for posting. I am hoping to get feedback from all levels of experience, and I am seeing my fears confirmed in all.

You're welcome. I wanted to post my results because I've been seeing/reading some comments claiming the changes will only affect those at the very top.

As odd as this might sound, I like the combat in ESO. I really like the idea that those who put more time, effort and practice get to be better.

The way combat is allowed me to be competitive the way I enjoy it. I don't compete with others. My challenge is to become better - I compete with myself. I can still admire and learn from those who are at the top without needing to get there myself. I can also complete increasingly harder content, if I apply myself.

I don't know if what I wrote in the above paragraph will remain true if the changes go live.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

KMarble wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Thank you for posting. I am hoping to get feedback from all levels of experience, and I am seeing my fears confirmed in all.

You're welcome. I wanted to post my results because I've been seeing/reading some comments claiming the changes will only affect those at the very top.

As odd as this might sound, I like the combat in ESO. I really like the idea that those who put more time, effort and practice get to be better.

The way combat is allowed me to be competitive the way I enjoy it. I don't compete with others. My challenge is to become better - I compete with myself. I can still admire and learn from those who are at the top without needing to get there myself. I can also complete increasingly harder content, if I apply myself.

I don't know if what I wrote in the above paragraph will remain true if the changes go live.

Well spoken, and that is an excellent way to enjoy an mmo. How sad that this is being intentionally destroyed by this patch.

mercadion

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

That is insane... they'll have to nerf content to compensate at that rate, at which point the initial nerfs to players become even more pointless.

Grandchamp1989

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Nor sure why anyone would be surprised at that, considering that in real content, enemies aren't nice enough to stand still in 30 seconds dots that tick at less than 400 a second.

Holycannoli

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

and the dummy has been buffed depending on the dummy used so it might be reporting more damage.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Holycannoli wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

and the dummy has been buffed depending on the dummy used so it might be reporting more damage.

Quite so, which is why in this thread I'm hoping to see as many 3 mil or 6 mil parses as possible. I know those at least, whereas the new trial dummy on pts, I do not know anymore.

Necrotech_Master

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

in live content thats what i expect, in a "friendly" parse scenario with a low mobility boss i would think 20-30%

dots provide quite a lot more dps than most people think and these nerfs are pretty huge

if these changes go through i might get rid of all ground based dots and only use sticky dots

Grandchamp1989

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Nor sure why anyone would be surprised at that, considering that in real content, enemies aren't nice enough to stand still in 30 seconds dots that tick at less than 400 a second.

Yeah but 40-50% ?
I don't know man. I'll have to see it to believe that.

Not saying it's wrong I just need to see it before making my mind up.

What I'm a bit more interested in tho is how the 2s healing ticks hold up in content like newer vet trials and new dungeon DLC hardmodes like Stone Garden. Anyone familiar with people who've played those yet on PTS?

Pevey

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

in live content thats what i expect, in a "friendly" parse scenario with a low mobility boss i would think 20-30%

dots provide quite a lot more dps than most people think and these nerfs are pretty huge

If these changes go through i might get rid of all ground based dots and only use sticky dots

If these changes go through, anyone left playing this game will use one aoe spammable and one single target spammable for 99% of content. ZOS might as well delete 90% of the skills in the game.

Then in future patches they will be looking at data and wondering why so many skills are never used and trying to tweak them so that they have some purpose.

If this game still exists in 2 years, they might well be right back where they started.

They fail to ever see the big picture which is why they zig zag all over the place with their "vision."

MidniteOwl1913

I only have one comment. Like DoT healing will also get a nerf. I would like to point out that a dead DPS doesn't do much damage... ;-)

starkerealm

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Nor sure why anyone would be surprised at that, considering that in real content, enemies aren't nice enough to stand still in 30 seconds dots that tick at less than 400 a second.

Yeah but 40-50% ?
I don't know man. I'll have to see it to believe that.

Not saying it's wrong I just need to see it before making my mind up.

What I'm a bit more interested in tho is how the 2s healing ticks hold up in content like newer vet trials and new dungeon DLC hardmodes like Stone Garden. Anyone familiar with people who've played those yet on PTS?

Figure that almost every groundlay in the game soaked a 50% loss before we even get started. (Because of their tick rate going to 1:2s, instead of 1:1s.) Then remember how much of your damage comes from DoTs. Remember the brutal nerfs to Light and Heavy attacks. Remember that the boss will move or hit an immunity phase before the 20s is up. Yeah, 40-50% starts to sound pretty credible, even when you're not picking through smaller details like the issue with Crusher enchants.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

starkerealm wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Nor sure why anyone would be surprised at that, considering that in real content, enemies aren't nice enough to stand still in 30 seconds dots that tick at less than 400 a second.

Yeah but 40-50% ?
I don't know man. I'll have to see it to believe that.

Not saying it's wrong I just need to see it before making my mind up.

What I'm a bit more interested in tho is how the 2s healing ticks hold up in content like newer vet trials and new dungeon DLC hardmodes like Stone Garden. Anyone familiar with people who've played those yet on PTS?

Figure that almost every groundlay in the game soaked a 50% loss before we even get started. (Because of their tick rate going to 1:2s, instead of 1:1s.) Then remember how much of your damage comes from DoTs. Remember the brutal nerfs to Light and Heavy attacks. Remember that the boss will move or hit an immunity phase before the 20s is up. Yeah, 40-50% starts to sound pretty credible, even when you're not picking through smaller details like the issue with Crusher enchants.

Exactly

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I only have one comment. Like DoT healing will also get a nerf. I would like to point out that a dead DPS doesn't do much damage... ;-)

The healing nerfs are just.. spitting on the grave tbh

KMarble

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mercadion wrote: »

Logs from those running trials on the pts are showing an avg of 40-50% dmg loss in content. About 30% loss on dummy.

40-50% ?! You sure?

Doesn't that seem like.. A lot?

Nor sure why anyone would be surprised at that, considering that in real content, enemies aren't nice enough to stand still in 30 seconds dots that tick at less than 400 a second.

That reminds me of a detail I forgot to add. When I fight alone, I kite the enemy to make sure it remains in the AoE/DOT(s). In group content (if you ever ran group content with a tank who moves too much, you'll know why) and/or multiple enemies coming in from different areas I might not be able to do the same.

Edited because I was being unfair of my representation of tanks.

Necrotech_Master

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the dots nerf extends to all gear sets that arent mentioned in the patch notes, i think i would be looking at least 30% dps loss (i dont have the pts installed to confirm with live builds)

the most important thing about dots is tick rate and dmg per tick, and both are getting reduced to the point dps using a dot is going to go down the drain

then all the class nerfs on top of the dot nerfs arent helping

That is quite true... there are far more repercussions to this than are written in the patch notes. Proc sets will either be a crutch, or obsolete altogether, depending on what is done with them. Hopefully someone with pts access can check some proc sets and provide feedback.

to come back to this point, there was some information posted about some sets in the main feedback thread

something like winters respite already has 2 sec ticks, same with pillar of nirn

(in the example of pillar of nirn, that only was registering a 2% dmg loss over where it is now, but that could be due to other factors like buffs the person had while parsing)

if this is the case though with most sets remaining virtually unchanged i would be more inclined to believe that dot procs will potentially become important for higher end gameplay (or as you say, a crutch because they are gear procs and not your own skill use)

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the dots nerf extends to all gear sets that arent mentioned in the patch notes, i think i would be looking at least 30% dps loss (i dont have the pts installed to confirm with live builds)

the most important thing about dots is tick rate and dmg per tick, and both are getting reduced to the point dps using a dot is going to go down the drain

then all the class nerfs on top of the dot nerfs arent helping

That is quite true... there are far more repercussions to this than are written in the patch notes. Proc sets will either be a crutch, or obsolete altogether, depending on what is done with them. Hopefully someone with pts access can check some proc sets and provide feedback.

to come back to this point, there was some information posted about some sets in the main feedback thread

something like winters respite already has 2 sec ticks, same with pillar of nirn

(in the example of pillar of nirn, that only was registering a 2% dmg loss over where it is now, but that could be due to other factors like buffs the person had while parsing)

if this is the case though with most sets remaining virtually unchanged i would be more inclined to believe that dot procs will potentially become important for higher end gameplay (or as you say, a crutch because they are gear procs and not your own skill use)

I don't see procs as crutches now on live, but if a set offered a strong proc that operated on the current 1 second damage increments, I would be definitely clinging to that, lol. I agree with you. Thanks for the info also!

Dysturbed

True balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play.

TaSheen

Dysturbed wrote: »

True balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play.

*WINCE*

Cadbury

Dysturbed wrote: »

True balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play.

Pevey

Dysturbed wrote: »

True balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play.

You're a dev, aren't you? Tell the truth.

/s

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Pevey wrote: »

Dysturbed wrote: »

True balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play.

You're a dev, aren't you? Tell the truth.

/s

Lol!