The Actual Dps Loss?

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

TPishek · July 2022

6 mill dummy parses are still ~25% lower.

FluffWit · July 2022

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

starkerealm · July 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Pevey · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Companies do that when they think [snip] enough of them will buy the spin and ultimately just accept and move on. And they are often right. Occasionally wrong.

[edited for bashing]

Artim_X · July 2022

Artim_X wrote: »

Consistent 30k + on 3million Dummy with Elemental Susceptibility active (top right corner)

Artim_X wrote: »

While Elemental Susceptibility is active, Kinras is only able to help me get a consistent 25k+ if I swap out my crit sets (one-piece Slimcraw and Mora's Whispers) for the new Archdruid Devyric monster set, my damage becomes a consistent 26k+ if I change out Kinras for the new set that grants empower after dealing damage with a heavy attack (Rage of the Ursauk) while still wearing the new monster set, and finally I put back on my crit sets while still wearing Ursauk which still got me past the 26k mark. Overall, what felt best was the 3rd setup, since my crit with a spell crit pot active was still around 60% which is where I feel most comfortable at.

If I use the same gear with my new rotation, the damage ranges from around 22-24k. I elaborate more on my full post. For my playstyle, the overall DPS loss on my parse is 4k on the 3 million dummy. However, it'll probably be more when you consider bosses that do not stay in place.

starkerealm · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Companies do that when they think [snip] enough of them will buy the spin and ultimately just accept and move on. And they are often right. Occasionally wrong.

Yep, and in this case, it would appear they are correct.

[edited to remove quote]

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

Yes, I was so done when I saw that. Trying to staunch the displeasure and mask the true losses. It's incredibly irritating.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

TPishek wrote: »

6 mill dummy parses are still ~25% lower.

Ouch, thank you. I suspected as much. That means true dps loss on the 21 mil is far greater...

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Yes, because massive blanket nerfs suddenly make content easy for people who were struggling before, right? 😆

starkerealm · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Yes, because massive blanket nerfs suddenly make content easy for people who were struggling before, right? 😆

Yeah, because if you can't get to the boss you were struggling on because the group can't clear the DPS checks to get there, then you're no longer struggling on that boss.

(._.)

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

So does the livestream. We've got them putting GIl front and center (okay, lower right, but still), telling people how this will make the game more accessible to new players... which, it does the exact opposite, and pushes the low DPS players out of the content they're doing entirely.

Yes, because massive blanket nerfs suddenly make content easy for people who were struggling before, right? 😆

Yeah, because if you can't get to the boss you were struggling on because the group can't clear the DPS checks to get there, then you're no longer struggling on that boss.

(._.)

Perfect logic

MudcrabAttack · July 2022

My warden had around 20-25% loss on the 3 million dummy, that’s with the new penetration debuff for each pet skill on a bar

starkerealm · July 2022

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

My warden had around 20-25% loss on the 3 million dummy, that’s with the new penetration debuff for each pet skill on a bar

Yeah, remember you give up 2% damage for each slotted ability to get that pen bonus. And, it's never going to work out in your favor. 990 Pen works out to about 1.5% mitigation bypass, so you give up 2% damage to deal 1.5% more. Worse, it does nothing to enemies who've already been stripped of their resistances.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Based on everything I see in the patch notes and the devs explanation I'm guessing a 10% DPS loss on average is what a highly skilled DPS should see. The changes will help decrease the gap between a player that is very good a LA weaving and players who are simply horrible at it. However, there should still be a gap between top end players and the average player.

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

starkerealm · July 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Part of it is, a lot of these nerfs just slice out huge chunks of your damage, right off the top, and that applies to everyone for the same value. So, when LAs are suddenly fixed, now it doesn't matter if you had good damage or okay damage, on your LAs. Everyone's LAs are critically low.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Based on everything I see in the patch notes and the devs explanation I'm guessing a 10% DPS loss on average is what a highly skilled DPS should see. The changes will help decrease the gap between a player that is very good a LA weaving and players who are simply horrible at it. However, there should still be a gap between top end players and the average player.

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

There won't be a gap at all if no one is completing the content, at this rate.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Based on everything I see in the patch notes and the devs explanation I'm guessing a 10% DPS loss on average is what a highly skilled DPS should see. The changes will help decrease the gap between a player that is very good a LA weaving and players who are simply horrible at it. However, there should still be a gap between top end players and the average player.

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

There won't be a gap at all if no one is completing the content, at this rate.

I was told ZYZ content needed ABC DPS check. It didn't need the DPS it simply need players to learn the mechanic that was there all along that most groups simply by pass by doing more damage. This is probably that same type of adjustment that needs to be done.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Based on everything I see in the patch notes and the devs explanation I'm guessing a 10% DPS loss on average is what a highly skilled DPS should see. The changes will help decrease the gap between a player that is very good a LA weaving and players who are simply horrible at it. However, there should still be a gap between top end players and the average player.

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

There won't be a gap at all if no one is completing the content, at this rate.

I was told ZYZ content needed ABC DPS check. It didn't need the DPS it simply need players to learn the mechanic that was there all along that most groups simply by pass by doing more damage. This is probably that same type of adjustment that needs to be done.

In many dlc trials and hardmodes, there are indeed dps checks, especially trials hardmodes.

pklemming · July 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

As it was stated in the patch notes, the 21 million health dummies were buffed significantly, now featuring a full 6k Alkosh debuff, minor and major courage, and major slayer. Needless to say, this would incur a notable dps increase. But it also tells me nothing about how impactful the actual nerfs are, as these dummy buffs are masking them heavily. This is very frustrating for me in trying to understand the changes and measure them.

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Based on everything I see in the patch notes and the devs explanation I'm guessing a 10% DPS loss on average is what a highly skilled DPS should see. The changes will help decrease the gap between a player that is very good a LA weaving and players who are simply horrible at it. However, there should still be a gap between top end players and the average player.

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

There won't be a gap at all if no one is completing the content, at this rate.

I was told ZYZ content needed ABC DPS check. It didn't need the DPS it simply need players to learn the mechanic that was there all along that most groups simply by pass by doing more damage. This is probably that same type of adjustment that needs to be done.

No, there are literal DPS checks in game. These are not bypassable through mechanics. If you were close or just in that range before, you have no hope after.

Not sure of your level, though, so would be interesting in knowing what content you are referring to, specifially, rather than giving a generalisation.

merpins · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

Yes, I was so done when I saw that. Trying to staunch the displeasure and mask the true losses. It's incredibly irritating.

Yeah that seems like a tactical choice so they can later say the losses aren't so bad while pointing at trial dummy parses. It's pretty gross.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Good question!

And good lord changing the dummies right now looks shady.

Yes, I was so done when I saw that. Trying to staunch the displeasure and mask the true losses. It's incredibly irritating.

Yeah that seems like a tactical choice so they can later say the losses aren't so bad while pointing at trial dummy parses. It's pretty gross.

Absolutely. Right when we needed familiar comparisons the most.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

Any new 3 mil parses to share? I'm still curious if anyone wants to share theirs.

xaraan · July 2022

Changing the dummy now (these changes could have been done last patch or next patch) look very fishy to me and comes off like they are trying to hide the real effect of the changes. You already see people trying to post parses and saying - see DPS isn't that much lower.

IMO, no parses mean a thing unless done on the OG target dummies at this point for comparing live and pts.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

xaraan wrote: »

Changing the dummy now (these changes could have been done last patch or next patch) look very fishy to me and comes off like they are trying to hide the real effect of the changes. You already see people trying to post parses and saying - see DPS isn't that much lower.

IMO, no parses mean a thing unless done on the OG target dummies at this point for comparing live and pts.

Exactly. It is truly just to mask the true devastation. I am only interested in 3 mil or 6 mil parses from this point on. I do not trust the 21 mil.

It's also interesting how the current dummies on live are all bugged to show a far higher number than what people are actually hitting. Hmmm.

starkerealm · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Any new 3 mil parses to share? I'm still curious if anyone wants to share theirs.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I haven't had the stomach to parse on a dummy since Monday evening. I've spent some time with content on the PTS but, it feels terrible.

That's also where my 50-60% damage loss on a DK line is coming from. I did parsing with a StamKnight on the PTS, and... I just can't. End result was ~15.6k On live that character pulls 32k-35k. This was before we realized the dummy had been... I almost just typed, "sabotaged," without thinking about it.

But, like I said, just couldn't bring myself to parse, I've been doing content testing, worrying more about feel than hard numbers since then, and, like I've said many times, I have yet to find a character that feels good on the PTS. My Stamblade main is the least abused, but it's still way less satisfying than on live.

lordspyder · July 2022

I'm a lower end player. I parsed 30k on live and 15k on PTS. I didn't screen shot them but I'm too disgusted to go back and do it again...

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Any new 3 mil parses to share? I'm still curious if anyone wants to share theirs.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I haven't had the stomach to parse on a dummy since Monday evening. I've spent some time with content on the PTS but, it feels terrible.

That's also where my 50-60% damage loss on a DK line is coming from. I did parsing with a StamKnight on the PTS, and... I just can't. End result was ~15.6k On live that character pulls 32k-35k. This was before we realized the dummy had been... I almost just typed, "sabotaged," without thinking about it.

But, like I said, just couldn't bring myself to parse, I've been doing content testing, worrying more about feel than hard numbers since then, and, like I've said many times, I have yet to find a character that feels good on the PTS. My Stamblade main is the least abused, but it's still way less satisfying than on live.

Thank you for posting, and I feel you

Was the 32-35k on the 3 mil dummy then?

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

lordspyder wrote: »

I'm a lower end player. I parsed 30k on live and 15k on PTS. I didn't screen shot them but I'm too disgusted to go back and do it again...

Bringing up the floor, eh Zos? 😒 Thank you for posting, Spyder. Everyone that contributes to this helps me know what to expect, as a console player.

starkerealm · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Any new 3 mil parses to share? I'm still curious if anyone wants to share theirs.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I haven't had the stomach to parse on a dummy since Monday evening. I've spent some time with content on the PTS but, it feels terrible.

That's also where my 50-60% damage loss on a DK line is coming from. I did parsing with a StamKnight on the PTS, and... I just can't. End result was ~15.6k On live that character pulls 32k-35k. This was before we realized the dummy had been... I almost just typed, "sabotaged," without thinking about it.

But, like I said, just couldn't bring myself to parse, I've been doing content testing, worrying more about feel than hard numbers since then, and, like I've said many times, I have yet to find a character that feels good on the PTS. My Stamblade main is the least abused, but it's still way less satisfying than on live.

Thank you for posting, and I feel you Was the 32-35k on the 3 mil dummy then?

I parsed 30 on a 21 dummy live immediately after the parse on PTS, but I was going through the motions. The character actually pulls around 32-35k in content on live, and can parse higher than that if I was paying attention and actually doing my rotation effectively.

I realize I haven't directly stated this, and I apologize, I have not created a solid data set for these nerfs. After the first two parses on a 21 on PTS, I switched to content testing, because I realized it was going to be less demoralizing.

Troodon80 · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Has anyone parsed on PTS on the 3 or 6 mil dummies and would be willing to share your findings in differences from live? I would absolutely do so myself, but unfortunately I have no access to PTS. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

I did a breakdown over here. I'm not going to copy paste it, if you want to read it you can head over there and see it.

In that post, I was using Burning Spellweave and Tzogvin and hitting on average 44k on Live. With the same overall build but one skill swapped out, I was on 38k.

I've been going at it all day with comparing builds from Live to PTS. Relequen and Tzogvin are getting the overall best for me given the penetration one needs to account for on the 3m dummy that they don't need to account for with the trial dummy. Bahsei/Riptide are close seconds over Relequen. I also use Slimecraw x1 piece with Kilt, but tried a few parses with Skoria x1 piece and Kilt. Not much of a difference.

On the back bar, tried Maelstrom Inferno Staff, Two-Hander, and Bow, with only negligible differences between them, but getting consistent 40k~45k parses now depending on the sets. On Live, it's a choice between Two-Hander and Inferno Staff, as the Bow's duration (and Maelstrom bonus, which makes it viable because of the extended DoT duration) just doesn't warrant running it for the cost. Two-Hander is the better of the two considering overall sustain of not using the trial atronach (for buffs and synergies). Front bar, tried using Inferno Staff or Dual Wield. There's about 2k in favour of dual wield. Still using Nirnhoned and Charged. Precise just didn't get the results since my critical rating was already around 65% average and ~70% maximum. The same setups on Live are hitting 50k~55k.

Overall, assuming exactly the same builds used between Live and PTS, it's an approximate 20% overall damage nerf with various factors on why that is. It's not just reduced "AoE damage and light attack damage," but tick frequency can also mean lower Berserker enchantment uptime; and in real content you'll see that much more readily, along with more downtime in, for example, Crusher from a tank or healer, which will also be a factor for your DPS in a group setting.

With a few tweaks here or there, you can bring the DPS difference down to around 15% DPS reduction from Live to PTS. Someone better at parsing would probably bring it down to maybe 11~13%. It can also be much higher than 15~20%, as in my first parse was roughly 40% different from Live to PTS.