SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

You know this could also be used as an argument for why heals shouldn't be as strong because everyone already has other ways to mitigate damage to keep themselves alive, and adding over the top cross heals could increase TTK to obnoxious levels.

Healing doesn't get mitigated the same way that damage does either. Also consider the values of major berserk and vulnerability and compare them with major mending and vitality. Resto heavy attacks also conveniently help a lot with sustaining healing output. These variables alone are good enough reasons that cross heals should be toned down to make up that difference.

Putting more agency on players having to pay attention to their own survival is a positive thing. Cross healing can still be very useful, but they shouldn't be strong enough so that those who are receiving those heals can start playing on autopilot and begin playing like they can afford to constantly make mistakes and not get punished for them.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Healing is out of control.



Are we done with this thread yet?

Idk what your screenshot should prove. That group of players can be bursted by ultidump? Yes, but that's toughness check, not HoT check.

.Ok, then I didn't understand your message ^^'

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

That resto ult build isn't even meta. You can get 100% uptime if you build for it.



With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

That resto ult build isn't even meta. You can get 100% uptime if you build for it.



With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

Not at all. Pretty sure we've been in a few bgs together with me running that build and it's effective with no real downside. Healing is extremely overtuned imo.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

Correct, but Practiced Incantation is top MMR meta. The only downside of it is that it's VERY BORING for the person who plays it.

divnyi wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

Thats the thing. People praise oakensoul for the damage, but they don't think about the inverse. Especially when healing is connected to damage.

Oaken buffs damage way more than healing. Let's check:

Major Berserk - doesn't buff healing
Major Force - doesn't buff healing
Major Courage - buffs healing
Major Heroism - buffs healing

Since everyone agree that Major Heroism needs to go, I don't see oaken be anywhere close to healer meta in the future. Even bruiser would be problematic because less skills = less HoT.

I don't mind oaken be squishier DPS item.

Heroism is so strong you can leverage oaken into a healer spec with just that major buff alone and life giver.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So again, there is no reason for a player to have a skill that cannot be healed. It does not make sense to have such a skill as it means it is a guaranteed one-shot or somehow the lost HP is permanently lost until death

Not one-shots, more like those flame channeler npcs that deal escalating damage until interrupted or killed.

One of the core mechanics of popular Battle Royale style open-world PvP games is a shrinking battlefield that prevents players from stalemating or avoiding combat. Stall strats are widely considered unfun in games (including sports).

In casual PvP games, there are always going to be trolls that think forcing their outcome or taking agency away from other players is just as good (or better) than actually winning as designed. This often leads to a toxic game environment.

There is no good reason for this PvP's mechanics to empower stall strats or encourage yet more trolling. The other extreme of one-shot ganking is just as bad. One-sided un-interactive encounters don't make for compelling PvP.

I think this would be a bad design for PvP.

Assuming the build that "take agency away from other players" is a tank build then a skill that would ramp up in damage fast enough to be effective against a build that is extremely hard to kill would be a virtual one-shot against most other players making it bad for PvP. If speaking of those that run circles around towers and other structures such a skill would be worthless due to the constant LoS.

Such things are easy to conceive but the unintended consequences can be more devastating.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Such things are easy to conceive but the unintended consequences can be more devastating.

Yea I'm not saying that specifically is the solution, just that there are things they could do that aren't one-shots. If you think indefinitely out-healing damage to stall out fights is fun or good for PvP then we can just agree to disagree.

Restating, a skill that could kill a tank fast enough will pawn a DPS in a blink. There is no getting around that since much of the time there has been a huge difference between what a tank build can handle and what the average DPS can handle.

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

Yes that's one of many problems trying to balance both extreme damage and extreme survivability. As it is now we've got the worst of both worlds dealing with unkillable heal stacking in one fight and un-interactable one-shots in the next, no surprise after 8 years of power creep and removal of balancing factors. It's probably not even possible to solve.

We struggled with this for a long time but our solution is a bomb duo. Sure 1 in 10 fail due to too many heals and 1 in 10 fail due to 1 shot ganks but that still leaves 80% quality zergbusting gameplay. I personally feel that Oakensoul 1 bar healers are more problematic than 1 bar gankers to overall Cyrodiil health. Not enough people in this game actively farm ball groups to realize how broken crit healing and 10 sec cooldown defensive ultis are. But still nowhere near as broken as Earthgore and Snow Treaders for the heal + tank + stall groups. Remove those 2 and every ball group disbands overnight.

I don't know why anyone is surprised that healers keep their team healed. That is literally their purpose. You cant just spam buttons and expect to win all the time. If you take the time to learn, you'll realize that there are plenty of ways to kill groups, even if they have a healer.

I think BGs need more environmental risks instead, outside of fall damage, like the Foyada Quarry. The lava is a huge risk to slip into and easily get killed in because you either couldn't get out fast enough or someone took advantage of your slip up. The only other two who have that kind of environmental risk is the Orc and Aylied ones, and those are just risk of falling off the edge. Which is easy to avoid edges. I don't count the dwemer blades one as that's procced by a player pulling the lever, and it has a cooldown. Foyada's lava is ever present and has no cooldown.

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PvE has mechanics that can't be healed through. PvP should too. Make players kill or be killed.

One-shot mechanics in PvP can be avoided easily. Even then, players do not have mechanics. They use skills. Players should not have skills that cannot be healed. It means groups would have guaranteed one-shots which would make the solo player even weaker and less viable.

As a solo player healing is too low anyway when fighting multiple enemy players except they are really bad.
Mechanics like this should also be useable by solo players against organized groups and ball groups, then they would help solo players more than group players.
Caalurion gankers and especially Heavy attack gankers already can instakill people, so that healing doest matter, but unlike real mechanics they are not really counterable and dont work against ballgroup members because rallying cry, transmutation and other group buff sets make bal group members too tanky. And it is really annoying if you get instakilled from behind while having a 1v1/1vX.
Mechanics like this are difficult to balance, but if they get implemented they should kill everybody's and not depend on numbers. Maybe make them AOE.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

Organized group members can completely ignore your attacks thanks to crosshealing and still survive, but (re)active defense that requires reacting to enemy attacks and stoping your offense
is the problem? Of course your attacks deal lower dmg if they only hit enemys raised shield and deal no dmg if they miss him. It is completely realistic and also worlks like this in almost all other games.
What game would it be if an enemy would attack you and you could do nothing to counter his attacks, only outheal them? whoever has higher stats or strikes first would win. I think using active defense against enemy attacks at the right time and attacking them when they dont is skillfull combat like in dark souls.

Arcanasx wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

You know this could also be used as an argument for why heals shouldn't be as strong because everyone already has other ways to mitigate damage to keep themselves alive, and adding over the top cross heals could increase TTK to obnoxious levels.

Healing doesn't get mitigated the same way that damage does either. Also consider the values of major berserk and vulnerability and compare them with major mending and vitality. Resto heavy attacks also conveniently help a lot with sustaining healing output. These variables alone are good enough reasons that cross heals should be toned down to make up that difference.

Putting more agency on players having to pay attention to their own survival is a positive thing. Cross healing can still be very useful, but they shouldn't be strong enough so that those who are receiving those heals can start playing on autopilot and begin playing like they can afford to constantly make mistakes and not get punished for them.

I agree with you, especially with the 3rd paragraph.