Healing is out of control

HiImRex

3 healers with unwhippable levels of healing.



I haven't seen healing like this since oh wait healing has been broken for years

xylena_lazarow

PvE has mechanics that can't be healed through. PvP should too. Make players kill or be killed.

Dem_kitkats1

Yeah...well... that's what happens when you don't deal with broken game imbalances and introduce op items that just exacerbate them. Allow more players to build to one extreme more easily and more will build to the other extreme to counter.

Wolfpaw

BG PvP...

I wish ZOS would separate this mini game from the rest of the game, it's and has been terrible to balance from.

Hopefully someday BG's will be No proc/mythic.

OnGodiDoDis

I don't see the problem. They're healers, they can't kill anyone. There are unkillable tanks. There are glass cannons. It's like complaining about not being able to solo a tank.

SkaraMinoc

It's a huge shock for some players when they discover that healers are designed to keep their teammates alive.

I'm actually surprised that team died at all with 3 healers.

xylena_lazarow

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

healers are designed to keep their teammates alive

Assuming equal skill, how many damage dealers should a healer be able to neutralize?

I think it should be 1 for 1, but that's definitely not the balance we're in...

SkaraMinoc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

healers are designed to keep their teammates alive

Assuming equal skill, how many damage dealers should a healer be able to neutralize?

I think it should be 1 for 1, but that's definitely not the balance we're in...

That depends entirely on team size and it's basically the same for every major MMO that has competitive small-scale PvP.

2v2: 0 to 1 healer
3v3: 1 healer
4v4: 1 healer + optional off heals
5v5: 1 healer + required off heals

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

In high MMR WoW 5v5 arenas you have 1 primary healer with 1 secondary healer. For example, in Burning Crusade Classic the meta consists of a Druid/Paladin healer with Discipline Priest or Elemental Shaman backup. In ESO this is equivalent to having a Warden/Templar primary healer and a Mag Sorc off healing with Matriarch.

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PvE has mechanics that can't be healed through. PvP should too. Make players kill or be killed.

One-shot mechanics in PvP can be avoided easily. Even then, players do not have mechanics. They use skills. Players should not have skills that cannot be healed. It means groups would have guaranteed one-shots which would make the solo player even weaker and less viable.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

Correct answer to the question @xylena_lazarow asked should be zero. Healer should not fully neutralize a DD. And not because it's bursted down (because this has counterplay in toughness), but because HPS should be lower than DPS, taking two characters of equal tankiness.

Amottica wrote: »

Players should not have skills that cannot be healed. It means groups would have guaranteed one-shots which would make the solo player even weaker and less viable.

Not true. Can reduce the damage over the board to remove all oneshots and make HP bar matter. Reduce healing even deeper than that.

People build for burst only because DPS is laughably easy to outheal.

divnyi

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully someday BG's will be No proc/mythic.

This doesn't eliminate the issue with healing in any way.
Also, I really doubt existing BG community will accept that.

Wolfpaw

divnyi wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully someday BG's will be No proc/mythic.

This doesn't eliminate the issue with healing in any way.
Also, I really doubt existing BG community will accept that.

Actually it would help by a lot.

& if the bg community wants healthier smallscale pvp they would be for this.

Dem_kitkats1

Wolfpaw wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Hopefully someday BG's will be No proc/mythic.

This doesn't eliminate the issue with healing in any way.
Also, I really doubt existing BG community will accept that.

Actually it would help by a lot.

& if the bg community wants healthier smallscale pvp they would be for this.

I proposed changes to gear for BGs only in another thread. Although players grumble about imbalances, the smallscale community doesn't like the idea of their gear and builds being limited in any way lol.

Supershutze

The problem isn't healers having powerful heals; if you want to build for powerful heals, that's fine.

The problem is everyone else having powerful heals.

Cut healing in *half* in all content. Buff sets and CP that improve healing to compensate.

If you want powerful heals, you should have to build for it. It shouldn't be something you just get by default.

olsborg

(pvp pov)Healing is too easy now, yes, but the fact that you can stack rapid regeneration is the biggest issue....specially if they run a ballgroup.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

Correct answer to the question @xylena_lazarow asked should be zero. Healer should not fully neutralize a DD.

If a healer can't outheal a single player's damage then there's no point in having healers in PvP.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Correct answer to the question @xylena_lazarow asked should be zero. Healer should not fully neutralize a DD.

If a healer can't outheal a single player's damage then there's no point in having healers in PvP.

Incorrect.
If a healer extends life expectancy of a team member from 4s to 20s, the group with healer will win the group without healer.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills when you have a strong healer on your team. This is similar to WoW and GW2 and that's the intended design for ESO.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

Incorrect.
If a healer extends life expectancy of a team member from 4s to 20s, the group with healer will win the group without healer.

Sure, you can tweak the dials on healing and it will change the PvP experience. In fact, ZOS does this periodically with the Battle Spirit healing penalty. I'm sure they'll adjust it again when needed.

I support special BG game modes where they experiment with different Battle Spirit penalties in addition to disabling cross heals altogether. This seems like a good way to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if ZOS hasn't already done this internally.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

SkaraMinoc

olsborg wrote: »

(pvp pov)Healing is too easy now, yes, but the fact that you can stack rapid regeneration is the biggest issue....specially if they run a ballgroup.

Ball groups don't stack rapid, they stack radiating.

katorga

Hmmm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610101/molten-whip-is-out-of-control

Holycannoli

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Ball groups don't stack rapid, they stack radiating.

That's probably what he meant.

Healing is an overlooked problem. It's spammable and some effects stack. Everyone keeps talking about the evil Oakensoul but nobody addresses just how out of control healing is.

There are AP-earning guides that tell you basically to just spam heals lol.

Meatbags help to a point.

BG's are an entirely separate issue. I don't think anything needs to be done there. It can be a pain if a healing+tank team gets the chaos ball but otherwise healing is not the issue it is in Cyrodiil, and Cyrodiil is where it counts. Just like I don't think PvP should be balanced if it affects PvE, BG's shouldn't be balanced if it affects Cyrodiil.

divnyi

Holycannoli wrote: »

Healing is an overlooked problem. It's spammable and some effects stack. Everyone keeps talking about the evil Oakensoul but nobody addresses just how out of control healing is.

I mean Practiced Incantation plars in any 4+ ppl group is the healing issue Oakensoul created.

Minno

the healing is prob too smart for this game for pvp. Meaning there isn't enough nuance existing to create interesting ways to heal in multiple forms of grouped combat. So what ends up happening is you have healers that can heal for more than they should, because the heals are balanced around large scale social combat instead of the smaller venues like BGs.

New world has the same issue. 1 healing option means it needs to be completely OP in order to function across multiple avenues of play. ESO is no exception; 2 classes with healing trees, 1 healing weapon. Compared to 1-2 dmg trees for each class, 5 dmg based weapons, world/guild trees with utility dps or raw dps abilities. Can't have a conversation on healing without adding more ways to slot healing spells because you have no way to offer alternatives to healing when you need to nerf it.

Durham

the healing is prob too smart for this game for pvp.

This is very true! This has been an ongoing problem. Healing in this game becomes extremally boring due to the lack of any skill basically.

Holycannoli

No skill, just spam healing in ball groups along with half the other players.

OBJnoob

Supershutze wrote: »

The problem isn't healers having powerful heals; if you want to build for powerful heals, that's fine.

The problem is everyone else having powerful heals.

Cut healing in *half* in all content. Buff sets and CP that improve healing to compensate.

If you want powerful heals, you should have to build for it. It shouldn't be something you just get by default.

I agree with this… only I’d leave self healing alone, for now, and cut anything on anyone else in half. That way players can still solo and reasonably 1vX. Actually that’d be a pretty big buff to Xers wouldn’t it? I’m fine with it… still seems fair to me.

The only other thing that makes sense to me and comes up often enough is to separate the stats for damage and healing. Which I think might upset people too much… but you could just turn the dial on it a hefty bit. So dmg still contributes but maxstat contributes more.

Urvoth

Durham wrote: »

the healing is prob too smart for this game for pvp.

This is very true! This has been an ongoing problem. Healing in this game becomes extremally boring due to the lack of any skill basically.

The skill for healers in eso isn't really healing, it's buff/debuff management.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

SkaraMinoc

Healing is out of control.



Are we done with this thread yet?