Healing is out of control

Minno

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

you can't go past 70% total mit without stacking block passives with sword and shield and when you do you lack the dmg to kill anything.

Arcanasx

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

You know this could also be used as an argument for why heals shouldn't be as strong because everyone already has other ways to mitigate damage to keep themselves alive, and adding over the top cross heals could increase TTK to obnoxious levels.

Healing doesn't get mitigated the same way that damage does either. Also consider the values of major berserk and vulnerability and compare them with major mending and vitality. Resto heavy attacks also conveniently help a lot with sustaining healing output. These variables alone are good enough reasons that cross heals should be toned down to make up that difference.

Putting more agency on players having to pay attention to their own survival is a positive thing. Cross healing can still be very useful, but they shouldn't be strong enough so that those who are receiving those heals can start playing on autopilot and begin playing like they can afford to constantly make mistakes and not get punished for them.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

Active damage mitigation eats through resources. Idk why we would talk about that, except for extremes of mitigation and cost reductions. It is fair mechanic.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Healing is out of control.



Are we done with this thread yet?

Idk what your screenshot should prove. That group of players can be bursted by ultidump? Yes, but that's toughness check, not HoT check.

Amottica

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

Correct answer to the question @xylena_lazarow asked should be zero. Healer should not fully neutralize a DD. And not because it's bursted down (because this has counterplay in toughness), but because HPS should be lower than DPS, taking two characters of equal tankiness.

Amottica wrote: »

Players should not have skills that cannot be healed. It means groups would have guaranteed one-shots which would make the solo player even weaker and less viable.

Not true. Can reduce the damage over the board to remove all oneshots and make HP bar matter. Reduce healing even deeper than that.

People build for burst only because DPS is laughably easy to outheal.

I find it odd that my comment was called out as not true but nothing was pointed out that was not true. The reply appears to be in agreement.

So again, there is no reason for a player to have a skill that cannot be healed. It does not make sense to have such a skill as it means it is a guaranteed one-shot or somehow the lost HP is permanently lost until death.

So to "reduce the damage over the board (assume it is across the board) to make HP bar matter more is very much in line with my comment.

divnyi

.Ok, then I didn't understand your message ^^'

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

So again, there is no reason for a player to have a skill that cannot be healed. It does not make sense to have such a skill as it means it is a guaranteed one-shot or somehow the lost HP is permanently lost until death

Not one-shots, more like those flame channeler npcs that deal escalating damage until interrupted or killed.

One of the core mechanics of popular Battle Royale style open-world PvP games is a shrinking battlefield that prevents players from stalemating or avoiding combat. Stall strats are widely considered unfun in games (including sports).

In casual PvP games, there are always going to be trolls that think forcing their outcome or taking agency away from other players is just as good (or better) than actually winning as designed. This often leads to a toxic game environment.

There is no good reason for this PvP's mechanics to empower stall strats or encourage yet more trolling. The other extreme of one-shot ganking is just as bad. One-sided un-interactive encounters don't make for compelling PvP.

Emmagoldman

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

Dem_kitkats1

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

Thats the thing. People praise oakensoul for the damage, but they don't think about the inverse. Especially when healing is connected to damage. By buffing damage so much, you've also buffed healing, making it even more power and easier than before. The more players burst people down in 2 shots, the more group compositions will change and players will build for the other extreme. Hence there being several healing builds in a BG match.

SkaraMinoc

That resto ult build isn't even meta. You can get 100% uptime if you build for it.



With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

HiImRex

I think the following changes might help:

1. decrease damage
2. increase the cost of healing, especially burst heals that can target other players
3. increase the cost of defensive ultimates

Burst damage at the top end is obviously too high and free. It's too easy to chunk someone for 90-100% of their hp in a single global and there's no real opportunity cost to it.

Turtling should gas you out, but it pretty much never does. If somebody negates a full offensive combo by spamming a big burst heal, you should have some assurance that you're winning the resource war by a significant margin and can reasonably expect to win with 1 or 2 more attempts.

To that point, cheap defensive ultimates exacerbate the problem, making healing too cost efficient relative to dealing damage. An aggressive ultimate should always be significantly cheaper than a defensive ultimate.

BTW I think without this kind of rebalance, next patch we'll see the problem get worse. With DOTs and HOTs getting weaker and buffs and debuffs increasing in duration, resource management (which is already extremely forgiving) will be even easier and we'll really enter into a meta where we're trading burst damage and heals until somebody makes a mistake or gets bored and takes their hand off the keyboard to scratch their nose or something.

FrankonPC

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

That resto ult build isn't even meta. You can get 100% uptime if you build for it.



With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

Not at all. Pretty sure we've been in a few bgs together with me running that build and it's effective with no real downside. Healing is extremely overtuned imo.

Emmagoldman

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

That resto ult build isn't even meta. You can get 100% uptime if you build for it.



With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

You're for sure correct, he even stated that the build isn't even fine tuned. So running two similar healers in a ballgroup and fun times!

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

With Bloodspawn it's 5 seconds. Otherwise 7 seconds. Keep in mind that you sacrifice a lot of healing power and mitigation to achieve this. It's only good for 1vX, 2v2, and sometimes 3v3. It falls apart in 4v4 Deathmatch.

It's more of a meme build really.

Correct, but Practiced Incantation is top MMR meta. The only downside of it is that it's VERY BORING for the person who plays it.

divnyi

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

Thats the thing. People praise oakensoul for the damage, but they don't think about the inverse. Especially when healing is connected to damage.

Oaken buffs damage way more than healing. Let's check:

Major Berserk - doesn't buff healing
Major Force - doesn't buff healing
Major Courage - buffs healing
Major Heroism - buffs healing

Since everyone agree that Major Heroism needs to go, I don't see oaken be anywhere close to healer meta in the future. Even bruiser would be problematic because less skills = less HoT.

I don't mind oaken be squishier DPS item.

FrankonPC

divnyi wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Healing is about skillz. Great video showing how poor this current meta is

https://youtu.be/F53Lrl9PpVY

Thats the thing. People praise oakensoul for the damage, but they don't think about the inverse. Especially when healing is connected to damage.

Oaken buffs damage way more than healing. Let's check:

Major Berserk - doesn't buff healing
Major Force - doesn't buff healing
Major Courage - buffs healing
Major Heroism - buffs healing

Since everyone agree that Major Heroism needs to go, I don't see oaken be anywhere close to healer meta in the future. Even bruiser would be problematic because less skills = less HoT.

I don't mind oaken be squishier DPS item.

Heroism is so strong you can leverage oaken into a healer spec with just that major buff alone and life giver.

fizzylu

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills when you have a strong healer on your team. This is similar to WoW and GW2 and that's the intended design for ESO.

The only difference here though is that WoW and GW2 healers can be killed rather easily compared to an ESO healer. WoW doesn't protect against stun lock at all so burning down a healer with well timed CC is rather easy. With GW2, you have to slot stun break or immunity abilities if you want to be able to avoid being stun locked and those usually have a long CD. But for ESO, that is not the case. WoW and GW2 also plays way more with class restrictions to playstyle, casting times, and cooldown times on abilities.... where in ESO you can basically just spam HOTs, burst heals, shields, CC, legit everything and anything instantly. And again, in WoW.... most big healing abilities are single target while some of the most powerful heals in ESO are multi target.... so when an ESO healer is healing ONE person, they're actually healing three and a lot of the time that includes their self. I see healers in BGs all the time that just NEVER die. Some will once or twice, but I'm never surprised to see a healer have zero deaths. To me, this is just a problem of how ESO combat functions.... but healing does seem to have gotten a little OP over the years. I can see two solo builds going at it and both jump back up to full health in under two seconds like 5+ times in a 1v1 haha

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So again, there is no reason for a player to have a skill that cannot be healed. It does not make sense to have such a skill as it means it is a guaranteed one-shot or somehow the lost HP is permanently lost until death

Not one-shots, more like those flame channeler npcs that deal escalating damage until interrupted or killed.

One of the core mechanics of popular Battle Royale style open-world PvP games is a shrinking battlefield that prevents players from stalemating or avoiding combat. Stall strats are widely considered unfun in games (including sports).

In casual PvP games, there are always going to be trolls that think forcing their outcome or taking agency away from other players is just as good (or better) than actually winning as designed. This often leads to a toxic game environment.

There is no good reason for this PvP's mechanics to empower stall strats or encourage yet more trolling. The other extreme of one-shot ganking is just as bad. One-sided un-interactive encounters don't make for compelling PvP.

I think this would be a bad design for PvP.

Assuming the build that "take agency away from other players" is a tank build then a skill that would ramp up in damage fast enough to be effective against a build that is extremely hard to kill would be a virtual one-shot against most other players making it bad for PvP. If speaking of those that run circles around towers and other structures such a skill would be worthless due to the constant LoS.

Such things are easy to conceive but the unintended consequences can be more devastating.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

Such things are easy to conceive but the unintended consequences can be more devastating.

Yea I'm not saying that specifically is the solution, just that there are things they could do that aren't one-shots. If you think indefinitely out-healing damage to stall out fights is fun or good for PvP then we can just agree to disagree.

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Such things are easy to conceive but the unintended consequences can be more devastating.

Yea I'm not saying that specifically is the solution, just that there are things they could do that aren't one-shots. If you think indefinitely out-healing damage to stall out fights is fun or good for PvP then we can just agree to disagree.

Restating, a skill that could kill a tank fast enough will pawn a DPS in a blink. There is no getting around that since much of the time there has been a huge difference between what a tank build can handle and what the average DPS can handle.

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

Yes that's one of many problems trying to balance both extreme damage and extreme survivability. As it is now we've got the worst of both worlds dealing with unkillable heal stacking in one fight and un-interactable one-shots in the next, no surprise after 8 years of power creep and removal of balancing factors. It's probably not even possible to solve.

Cuddlypuff

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

Yes that's one of many problems trying to balance both extreme damage and extreme survivability. As it is now we've got the worst of both worlds dealing with unkillable heal stacking in one fight and un-interactable one-shots in the next, no surprise after 8 years of power creep and removal of balancing factors. It's probably not even possible to solve.

We struggled with this for a long time but our solution is a bomb duo. Sure 1 in 10 fail due to too many heals and 1 in 10 fail due to 1 shot ganks but that still leaves 80% quality zergbusting gameplay. I personally feel that Oakensoul 1 bar healers are more problematic than 1 bar gankers to overall Cyrodiil health. Not enough people in this game actively farm ball groups to realize how broken crit healing and 10 sec cooldown defensive ultis are. But still nowhere near as broken as Earthgore and Snow Treaders for the heal + tank + stall groups. Remove those 2 and every ball group disbands overnight.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So to kill the tank in a reasonable time the skill is pretty much a one-shot for much of the rest of the players.

Yes that's one of many problems trying to balance both extreme damage and extreme survivability. As it is now we've got the worst of both worlds dealing with unkillable heal stacking in one fight and un-interactable one-shots in the next, no surprise after 8 years of power creep and removal of balancing factors. It's probably not even possible to solve.

Well it's not impossible.

Bruisers and tanks stack toughness.
Stacking toughness makes you have less DPS and less HoT.

Several issues today:
1. HoT is too strong, even reduced HoT of a tank combined with damage mitigation is enough to suppress any DPS, even extreme values.
2. Burst is way too strong. This makes players value toughness over DPS/heals.

This is it, it's all the problems. Well ok not all, but main ones. Solve them, and you will see how most players choose to be 26k fighters because they can do more pressure and more healing this way, and you die without it no matter how many HP you had initially.

And jokingly, solution is also dead easy. Change two or three values in battle spirit.

CompM4s

I don't know why anyone is surprised that healers keep their team healed. That is literally their purpose. You cant just spam buttons and expect to win all the time. If you take the time to learn, you'll realize that there are plenty of ways to kill groups, even if they have a healer.

xylena_lazarow

CompM4s wrote: »

You cant just spam buttons and expect to win all the time

Straight spam healing is pretty effective in PvP though. Spam RR on your zerg. Spam burst heal if focused.

I don't know why some players in this thread seem to think they should literally never die.

WuffyCerulei

I think BGs need more environmental risks instead, outside of fall damage, like the Foyada Quarry. The lava is a huge risk to slip into and easily get killed in because you either couldn't get out fast enough or someone took advantage of your slip up. The only other two who have that kind of environmental risk is the Orc and Aylied ones, and those are just risk of falling off the edge. Which is easy to avoid edges. I don't count the dwemer blades one as that's procced by a player pulling the lever, and it has a cooldown. Foyada's lava is ever present and has no cooldown.

Firstmep

Both damage and healing are kinda too high atm, so either nerfs or battlespirit adjustments should happen. They've done it before so it should be okay.

Iriidius

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PvE has mechanics that can't be healed through. PvP should too. Make players kill or be killed.

One-shot mechanics in PvP can be avoided easily. Even then, players do not have mechanics. They use skills. Players should not have skills that cannot be healed. It means groups would have guaranteed one-shots which would make the solo player even weaker and less viable.

As a solo player healing is too low anyway when fighting multiple enemy players except they are really bad.
Mechanics like this should also be useable by solo players against organized groups and ball groups, then they would help solo players more than group players.
Caalurion gankers and especially Heavy attack gankers already can instakill people, so that healing doest matter, but unlike real mechanics they are not really counterable and dont work against ballgroup members because rallying cry, transmutation and other group buff sets make bal group members too tanky. And it is really annoying if you get instakilled from behind while having a 1v1/1vX.
Mechanics like this are difficult to balance, but if they get implemented they should kill everybody's and not depend on numbers. Maybe make them AOE.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

Organized group members can completely ignore your attacks thanks to crosshealing and still survive, but (re)active defense that requires reacting to enemy attacks and stoping your offense
is the problem? Of course your attacks deal lower dmg if they only hit enemys raised shield and deal no dmg if they miss him. It is completely realistic and also worlks like this in almost all other games.
What game would it be if an enemy would attack you and you could do nothing to counter his attacks, only outheal them? whoever has higher stats or strikes first would win. I think using active defense against enemy attacks at the right time and attacking them when they dont is skillfull combat like in dark souls.

Arcanasx wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

In ESO competitive Deathmatch you typically only want 1 healer and 3 DPS. Off heals can help during burst windows but you risk losing kills by not having enough DPS.

You literally stated the problem here. You need 3 DPS to make a single kill (with coordinated burst), when opponent's team has 1 healer and 3 dds.

There's no problem with 3 DPS required to get kills

There is a problem that healer+selfheals negate 2dds and 3dds needed to kill.

When every player in the game gets a base 50% mitigation from block, 100% non-aoe mitigation from dodge, and can also line of sight then it becomes obvious why you need that many dd/dps. But let's hate on healers and not talk about that.

You know this could also be used as an argument for why heals shouldn't be as strong because everyone already has other ways to mitigate damage to keep themselves alive, and adding over the top cross heals could increase TTK to obnoxious levels.

Healing doesn't get mitigated the same way that damage does either. Also consider the values of major berserk and vulnerability and compare them with major mending and vitality. Resto heavy attacks also conveniently help a lot with sustaining healing output. These variables alone are good enough reasons that cross heals should be toned down to make up that difference.

Putting more agency on players having to pay attention to their own survival is a positive thing. Cross healing can still be very useful, but they shouldn't be strong enough so that those who are receiving those heals can start playing on autopilot and begin playing like they can afford to constantly make mistakes and not get punished for them.

I agree with you, especially with the 3rd paragraph.