xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why...

There's 0 point fighting someone who stands 0 chance. We need casuals to stand a fighting chance because most of this game is casual randoms pugging or zerg surfing, and if they keep quitting, PvP dies. Competitive ESO does not stand on its own, look at what's happened to BGs and dueling...

Yall seem to think that just by making casuals better that suddenly will make PVP thrive but that's far from the case. Let's assume this ring magically makes all pugs, zerg surfers, and faction stack players match ball groups in skill level. What becomes of that?
The zerg players and faction stackers just become the problem instead of ball groups. If ball groups are unable to stop random pugs running 30 deep they're just gonna blob zerg the map out of control again and be unstoppable. The only counter to faction stacking/zerg surfing the map until you gate everything is ball groups or other zergs but zerg fights usually depend on who has more. And that's ASSUMING each faction has a zerg population to counter other faction zergs, which is not always true. Usually one faction dominates way harder than the others. And whichever faction has more typically steamrolls everything.

It seems people just want PVP that's dependent on rolling over people with more numbers which just sounds like we're gonna have faction stacking PVDoor meta again or PVP that's 30 vs 5 because no one wants to fight an entire faction so severely outnumbered.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

It seems people just want PVP that's dependent on rolling over people with more numbers which just sounds like we're gonna have faction stacking PVDoor meta again or PVP that's 30 vs 5 because no one wants to fight an entire faction so severely outnumbered.

Surely there is a balance possible between the two extremes?

In the current meta, a competitive 5-man will stall out the 30 pugs but won't be able to flip the flags or fully wipe the pugs. I'm advocating continuing pushing more pressure damage into the meta, so the 5 can decisively beat the 30 if they are willing to risk being wiped by the 30, rather than heal and kite for the next hour.

One thing I would su

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'm sorry I haven't spent a hundred years in this game perfecting everything and predicting other players. I'm sure it must have been very upsetting for you to spend hours and hours learning how to do something only for an item to come along and teach new players how to do the same thing in a simpler fashion. [snip] Things are constantly changing and improving for those who come after you. That's the way it is. There are very few games that do things the same way they did when they first launched. Despite having few people willing to teach me, I've been learning how to pvp. I learned almost everything on my own, and I don't consider myself a bad player just because I can't utilize bar swapping. You all act as if it's something that anyone can learn overnight, without specifying how long it took you. I hope I am not still playing this game in eight years, so I may never learn to bar swap. This is why I'll continue to use it even if it's nerfed.

Players wouldn't be so mad at the ring if it only acted only as a substitute for 2 bar builds and provided similar buffs. However it far exceeds that. Of course new players are feeling more competitive, because 1 item is providing them with permanent buffs that were very difficult to obtain in the game in the first place. 2 bar builds don't give you those kinds of buffs without sacrifice. This is not a case of it being an item that only helps players with bar swapping and maintaining buffs. Let's not kid ourselves.

Like you, I've only been playing the game for few years, pretty casually, outside of the U.S. on unstable internet. It’s also been a couple years of the worst perfomance that the game has seen so I can sympathize with issues with bar swapping. However, even to me this ring spells easy mode; especially when performance is supposedly getting fixed and has improved (PC NA). Sure it raises the skill floor, but at what cost? Pushing players to buy DLCs to band aid fix issues (performance) and broken mechanics (healing) in the game, further perpetuate gear based and not skilled based play, strengthening and narrowing metas even more, leaving imbalanced classes even further in the dust.

Maybe some of the buffs yeah. Though before the ring came out I had a lot of skills on my bars with the very same buffs. Like the ones from the fighters guild. I do think some of them shouldn't be 100% uptime, but the ones that have always been 100% uptime should stay that way. I will admit I am not familiar with all the buffs because I mostly just use the ones that give me damage, if they keep those then I'd be fine. I looked back at my old set up and I always had 100% prophecy and the savage one. They can take the others off, I really don't need them.

I can't speak for any other players but myself and how it has helped me. I don't see it as easy mode because I was still killing just as many people with my runes and crystal frags before the ring. I still die just as much too. I didn't know there was a buff to make your ult tick faster. That can also go, I didn't even know it existed.

[edited to remove quote]

Okay, folks. Let's pull this back and remember to be respectful, lest the thread get locked.

The issue isn't that it helps less experienced players perform at a higher level, and thus enjoy aspects of the game, PvE or pvp, they may have not previously enjoyed.

The issue is that there is nothing stopping elite players using it to create God troll builds. If one or two buffs were removed from the ring, sweaty players would be less inclined to use it while still being very useful for players who can't or don't want to work on bar swapping and keeping buffs active.

If you removed heroism and changed major force to minor, while leaving everything the same you'd make this ring more equal to what a 2 bar player has access to. Yes some people will get made and decry nerfs, but it should've been that way from the start.

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'd fully support that. I don't even know what the buffs you named do. I don't think I've used them, at least not intentionally.

For the most part you couldn't use them before, not with 100% uptime like with the ring and not without explicitly building for it or having a support friend build for it. Same for major berserk.

I'm sorry but if you don't even know what the ring gives you, how can you judge if it's balanced or not?

Hexquisite wrote: »

Now that the people have had a couple weeks with this ring, they are building tankier. Seeing lots of 40 to 45 k health bars, and old sets/traits coming back. I myself will prob tank up as well.

You can try to tank up but it won't work because half the zerg is now running triple damage set oakensoul gank builds. Any single one of them will trigger multiple on-death procs and easily blow up even the most optimized permablock tanks. This is not speculation by the way - ask any bomber or just look at the massive body stacks created.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You can try to tank up but it won't work because half the zerg is now running triple damage set oakensoul gank builds. Any single one of them will trigger multiple on-death procs and easily blow up even the most optimized permablock tanks. This is not speculation by the way - ask any bomber or just look at the massive body stacks created.

That's a whole other issue lol. Occult Overload is doing a lot of damage, and paired with VD it's pretty good at wiping groups.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Something needs to be able to punch through all that healing.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'd fully support that. I don't even know what the buffs you named do. I don't think I've used them, at least not intentionally.

For the most part you couldn't use them before, not with 100% uptime like with the ring and not without explicitly building for it or having a support friend build for it. Same for major berserk.

I'm sorry but if you don't even know what the ring gives you, how can you judge if it's balanced or not?

I know that the ring gives you buffs. I know that buffs can be acquired through skills and armor. I may not know exactly every single buff without looking it up, but I'm aware how they work. Furthermore, I just stated and I've stated multiple times that buffs that aren't usually 100% uptime probably shouldn't be on the ring or at least not always at 100%. So isn't that me agreeing with you all? Unless you prefer to disagree just for fun.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This happens in every meta shift. At first people build for damage, then they realize they can push tankiness and still do damage.

Haha yes, I should've put "again". I remember when we used to run around with 26K health lol

DaisyRay wrote: »

I know that the ring gives you buffs. I know that buffs can be acquired through skills and armor. I may not know exactly every single buff without looking it up, but I'm aware how they work. Furthermore, I just stated and I've stated multiple times that buffs that aren't usually 100% uptime probably shouldn't be on the ring or at least not always at 100%. So isn't that me agreeing with you all? Unless you prefer to disagree just for fun.

Mate ofc I was talking about knowing the specific benefits of said buffs. If you don't know the specifics how can you judge if the item actually improves your character, or by how much?

jaws343 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'd fully support that. I don't even know what the buffs you named do. I don't think I've used them, at least not intentionally.

For the most part you couldn't use them before, not with 100% uptime like with the ring and not without explicitly building for it or having a support friend build for it. Same for major berserk.

I'm sorry but if you don't even know what the ring gives you, how can you judge if it's balanced or not?

I know that the ring gives you buffs. I know that buffs can be acquired through skills and armor. I may not know exactly every single buff without looking it up, but I'm aware how they work. Furthermore, I just stated and I've stated multiple times that buffs that aren't usually 100% uptime probably shouldn't be on the ring or at least not always at 100%. So isn't that me agreeing with you all? Unless you prefer to disagree just for fun.

But, that is like every buff on the ring..

Major Berserk: Oakensoul is the only thing in game that gives this buff 100% uptime
Major Brutality: You either need to run a full 5 piece set, or you need to slot and activate a skill to maintain uptime
Major Courage: You need to either run with a healer running this, or you have to maintain your own healing with this to keep uptime, and most of the sources have cooldowns on it
Major Force: Only offered through a few ultimates or through minimal uptime sets.
Major Heroism: At best, a 66% uptime on this using other sources of it, which require full 5 piece sets, or being a warden casting a skill and taking damage


Some middle ones that are kind of permanent but not really, and not really a problem on Oaken
Major Resolve: Requires keeping buffs up on class skills, or slotting a 2 piece set.
Major Sorcery: Requires Keeping buffs up on class skills, or slotting a 5 piece set.
Minor Endurance/Fortitude/Intellect: Very spread out set of buffs that are limitedly available on certain classes or with certain weapon usage. Should probably be in the first category, but not really a problem set of buffs on the ring.

The only ones that have 100% uptime from just slotting a skill are:
Major Prophecy
Major Protection


Everything in that first category are where most of the problems with the ring lie. And there isn't a single two bar build that is getting every buff in that list, nor is there a single two bar build that is getting every buff in that list with 100% uptime.

When I say not 100% uptime, I mean buffs that can't be added through skills. Because that is usually what the bar swap would usually be used for? At least for me.

For example...

I have a skill on my healer's back bar that gives her Major Protection for a certain amount of time. This should not be 100% on the ring because it is not always on my character, just on there for a few seconds. (Though you say it is, so maybe I just don't know what skill or armor is used for that 100%.)

However, Major Prophecy and Sorcery is always on my character so long as it's slotted. Therefore I would keep that one at 100%.

That's just to name a few. Like I said, I don't mind them making adjustments. I just don't want the ring to end up so nerfed that it was pointless to get it in the first place. The whole point of it is to use one bar. So keeping the buffs that you would normally use a skill to get makes sense. Then you have bar space for the actual attacks.

DaisyRay wrote: »

Buffs are made to "buff" your character. Of course it improves your character. Unless they suddenly make buffs that gives negative effects? While I may not be as learned on it, I'm pretty sure none of them take away from your character. As for how much, again it's in the name. Major and Minor.

I guess arguing is just funsies for you. Are we going to be best friends that never agree on anything?

If you don't know *how* the item improves your character how are you going to compare it to a different build which does not utilize the item. It isn't rocket surgery, how do you decide to equip something if you don't know what it does (beyond give you mythical, unknown buffs) vs. equipping something else?

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

If you don't know *how* the item improves your character how are you going to compare it to a different build which does not utilize the item. It isn't rocket surgery, how do you decide to equip something if you don't know what it does (beyond give you mythical, unknown buffs) vs. equipping something else?

Uh like everyone else? I compared it to my build with the ring and without the ring. To see how much more damage my skills did and just how buffed I was versus not wearing it. Not much has changed for me. I am not a deity that just goes around absolutely slaughtering people nor am I absolutely unkillable. It might be different based on how one makes their build, their class, and their race. This is just based on my own tests when I got the ring.

I also tested some of the other new mythics out. One of them being the sea serpent. I honestly didn't see a big change with that either, but it could have just been with my build.

On my tank I found it does help with sustain, but not by much. I was still able to be murdered by two guys in IC frequently despite having the ring on and using block.

On my healer, I found it did very little to help my healer. I know Isthernooneelse did a video on using the ring on his healer, but I've found it difficult. I think two bars are better for a healer that way you can have one bar for just heals and the other for just defense. It's really hard to merge those for me. Since I don't focus on damage with her, I don't really see the need to use the ring.

On my sorc, it seemed the best. As mentioned before I usually need to put mage and fighter guilds on my front bar to boost my damage. Now that I no longer need those skills, I can my heal and shield on my front bar. Which is also why I said I didn't mind if buffs that aren't usually 100% are removed or at least lowered in how much it can be used.

On my nightblade I can't say if I do more damage now because I don't usually gank people, it's boring. I've always had a crit build of 60% crit even before the ring.


Usually when I'm comparing sets and skills, I look on websites and youtube videos to understand what each thing is. That's how I build my sets, I research. In fact, I used to go so far to make numerous builds, gold them out, and then decide I don't like it or that the golding didn't really make that much of a difference. I don't think you need to know exactly what everything does when you can just look it up. Honestly there are so many buffs, so I mostly just remember the ones I liked and use often. I've listed those above in previous comments.

DaisyRay wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Even if you can get a buff through a skill, you cannot gaurantee it has 100% uptime.

Maybe you run out of resources so you cannot reapply the buff, maybe you are pressured and have to heal, or put up a shield, or roll dodge, or go on the offensive to secure a close kill.

So many factors play into your uptime of buffs acquired through skill usage. And the ring eliminates all of that. So, a perfect player may be able to keep 100% uptime on a few of these, but not all. And zero 2 bar players will have every one of these buffs on a build at the same time.

[While slotted you gain Major Savagery and Prophecy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629. ]

That's one that I usually use and is always active when I attack. It's why it's the one I recall the most. That could be the only one, I'm not sure unless I look it up. Though I honestly don't want to spend time to look it up when you guys are just going to disagree. Lol even when I'm agreeing with you, you find things to argue about. In the end, Zos will do whatever they think is best and we'll all live with it.

If they nerf it, I'll still use it and adjust my bar. If they don't, I'll keep my build as is. I'm not upset about either, I try not get upset about things that are not in my hands. This is just me sharing my opinion.

The issue is, you keep saying that you agree to remove or lessen anything that isn't usually 100% uptime on a two bar build without actually knowing what that is. You have repeatedly argued in this post that it isn't that strong, when people are really only saying like 2 of the buffs need to be adjusted, and the ring would still provide more buffs than a 2 bar build could possible have up. This is a direct quote from you earlier in this thread:

"Oakensoul doesn't carry anyone as it gives you the same thing you would have on a two bar setup."

My entire reply earlier detailed out how literally only like 3 of the buffs were possible to have 100% uptime on a two bar build. So effectively, the entire ring provides something not possible to two bar builds. What you have stated is provably false. And the frustration here by players who actually want to see this balanced in a meaningful way, without making it useless, is that players who don't really understand the buffs the ring provides are offering balance advice.

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

Now that the people have had a couple weeks with this ring, they are building tankier. Seeing lots of 40 to 45 k health bars, and old sets/traits coming back. I myself will prob tank up as well.

This is the problem when op gear is used to fix game imbalances instead of fixing the root problems. High burst metas lead to tank metas and the cycle continues with nothing in between.

Unless something could be invented which completely differentiates a "tank" and a "DD", forever resolving the issue you describe.

Like an item which gives you 100% uptime on Major Force, Berserk, and Courage, at the expense of being able to run a SnB or Resto backbar.