The Oakensoul Ring has ended the PVP tank meta and ushered in another glorious damage meta

Nightwiish

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Nightwiish wrote: »

If they change Oakensoul in any way shape or form, I will ask for a 100% refund that I spent for High Isle.

The reason why Oakensoul is so popular is because majority of players don't find juggling 10 different buffs with such short durations *fun* gameplay. If they increase the buff durations on buffs like Major Protection, Mending, Vitality and others to be 30+ secs then sure go ahead and change Oakensoul.

It does 5 more buffs beyond what most people keep up. Taking down 2 or 3 of those and you would still have the gameply you want and be fine

No you don't get my point. Either increase the buff durations to 30 sec min or keep the ring as it is. I don't find managing 3-4 10 secs buffs and that type of gameplay fun. Oakensoul to me solves that problem and makes the game more fun.

TechMaybeHic

Nightwiish wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Nightwiish wrote: »

If they change Oakensoul in any way shape or form, I will ask for a 100% refund that I spent for High Isle.

The reason why Oakensoul is so popular is because majority of players don't find juggling 10 different buffs with such short durations *fun* gameplay. If they increase the buff durations on buffs like Major Protection, Mending, Vitality and others to be 30+ secs then sure go ahead and change Oakensoul.

It does 5 more buffs beyond what most people keep up. Taking down 2 or 3 of those and you would still have the gameply you want and be fine

No you don't get my point. Either increase the buff durations to 30 sec min or keep the ring as it is. I don't find managing 3-4 10 secs buffs and that type of gameplay fun. Oakensoul to me solves that problem and makes the game more fun.

I get your point. I'm saying that it takes care of those buffs AND 5 more in too of it people are already not managing. It would still do what you like without needing as much extra. Just a little of the extra to make up for the missing bar

DaisyRay

I do think this ring brings balance. I can't tell you how many times I've died because my bar didn't flip like I told it to or I pressed the wrong button. It's so much easier to have one bar because I know where everything is and I can focus on my actual attacks and defense without needing to switch bars midfight and praying I don't mess up.

It might be easy to do that for those of you who have been playing since the start, but I'm just finishing my first year in pvp and I am always at a disadvantage to those who are more skilled in bar flipping.

ShadowProc

The ring has brought balance to the force.

DrSlaughtr

This is really just confirmation bias. You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

Players are just as tanky with just as ridiculous heals. Are we joking ourselves? The ring drastically increases damage and ultimate up time, meaning you can easily run a defensive set.

It's like people forget you can still run 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 set ups like every other mythic.

DaisyRay

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

Aren't you kind of doing the same? You want to take it away because you either can't get it/don't want it or you don't want to adjust the build you already have. So to make things easier for you, you just want it gone or nerfed. When there are actual player like me who uses to ring to keep up with the more experienced players.

Cuddlypuff

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is really just confirmation bias. You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

Players are just as tanky with just as ridiculous heals. Are we joking ourselves? The ring drastically increases damage and ultimate up time, meaning you can easily run a defensive set.

It's like people forget you can still run 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 set ups like every other mythic.

Not true. Players could not reliably solo gank or bomb in the last patch so they just resorted to bruiser builds or ball zergs. The fact that it is possible now with Oakensoul means that players are building glass cannons again (because it works). These glass cannons are now walking VD/Occult grenades that then blow up any group still trying to build for tankiness, which will hopefully discourage the practice.

Like I said in the OP, our duo does not use the ring and we don't even own high isle. It's not a punishment at all to not use it, in fact our combo is the strongest it's ever been. The only change we had to make in the Oakensoul meta is crutching on cheesy damage mitigation like mist form.

xDeusEJRx

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is really just confirmation bias. You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

Players are just as tanky with just as ridiculous heals. Are we joking ourselves? The ring drastically increases damage and ultimate up time, meaning you can easily run a defensive set.

It's like people forget you can still run 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 set ups like every other mythic.

This.
Sets never should balance pvp, they should be trying to make the game balance on it's own. Not slapping sets on the game to fix balance. Zos needs to stop introducing sets to balance the game and fix busted balance

Dark convergence didn't fix game balance, Plaguebreak didn't fix balance, Crimson didn't, malacath didin't, Sload's didn't.
Oakensoul doesnt either. It's just OP in pvp for the sake of OP.

Zos needs to actually try to fix game classes and not [snip] slap sets in the game and call that balance

[edited for minor bashing]

DrSlaughtr

DaisyRay wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

Aren't you kind of doing the same? You want to take it away because you either can't get it/don't want it or you don't want to adjust the build you already have. So to make things easier for you, you just want it gone or nerfed. When there are actual player like me who uses to ring to keep up with the more experienced players.

I'll answer all your points on order.

1. No, I'm not doing the same. I'm advocating for the game to function as designed with this mythic being useful for players who need it, rather than competely taking over PVP. Players of all skill levels flock to easy mode. If the ring didn't make you better than a 2 bar setup, this would be a different conservation.

2. I don't need the ring to run my builds. However there's nothing I can do to stop a DK from hitting corrosives back to back or a templar spamming rite of passage every 10 seconds. Are we really pretending like this isn't an issue? Ultimate costs are balanced to prevent this for a reason.

3. I don't want it gone, nor will it make things "easier" for me if it were to disappear. The only people getting easy moded by the ring are it's users. I think the idea of the ring is great. I know a guy who plays with a prosthetic hand. The issue is that a one bar set up shouldn't out perform a 2 bar set up when comparing equally skilled players on the same class. You can find many YouTube videos of players comparing classes with and without the ring.

4. "It lets me keep up with more experienced players" is all well and good if it didn't also exponentially benefit those same experienced players.

NordSwordnBoard

What have we learned from using a set to change a meta, or bring balance to the farce?

Cuddlypuff

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

What have we learned from using a set to change a meta, or bring balance to the farce?

To be fair, I'd say balance has been restored. Recall that we only lost the damage meta when Mechanical Acuity was nerfed from it's instant 100% crit version, effectively nullifying tether bombing and ganking overnight. This led to such a dreary tank meta that many PVPers simply just quit rather than consistently stall / stalemate every fight.

DrSlaughtr

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

What have we learned from using a set to change a meta, or bring balance to the farce?

To be fair, I'd say balance has been restored. Recall that we only lost the damage meta when Mechanical Acuity was nerfed from it's instant 100% crit version, effectively nullifying tether bombing and ganking overnight. This led to such a dreary tank meta that many PVPers simply just quit rather than consistently stall / stalemate every fight.

The point is a 1 piece set that you can wear on top of a 5/5/1 or 5/4/2 set up shouldn't be the thing to restore balance, because that is inherently not balanced. On it's own this ring is more powerful than any 5 piece set or monster set in the game while also nullifying the necessity to manage 2 bars and buffs.

Everyone who is in love with this ring is just ignoring the reality of it's overuse. It could reduce it's function and still be viable with a few changes.

xDeusEJRx

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

What have we learned from using a set to change a meta, or bring balance to the farce?

To be fair, I'd say balance has been restored. Recall that we only lost the damage meta when Mechanical Acuity was nerfed from it's instant 100% crit version, effectively nullifying tether bombing and ganking overnight. This led to such a dreary tank meta that many PVPers simply just quit rather than consistently stall / stalemate every fight.

That's not even remotely true. Bombers and gankers never dictate the landscape of pvp lol. Gankers have been universal throughout every patch. Tell me a single patch you haven't seen snipe ganks on your recap or people attempting to snipe you. They never go away. Only bombers became more scarce but again bombers don't dictate the state of pvp. There's always more non-bombers than bombers in pvp.

Also mechanical acuity was just the easy man's way to bomb and gank. Anyone could slap on MA and be a ganker or bomber. I've ran regular new moons and deadlands assassins during that time period and could hit 13k surprise attacks/ 10k+ incaps the same way a MA acuity ganker could. MA just made it painfully easy to do through accessibility

DaisyRay

1.) Lol it's not completely taking over pvp. I use it and I'm not a monstrous killing machine that just absolutely murders everything in my path. Nor are the other people who use it. That is just grossly exaggerating. So what, a few people died from some big attacks. That was happening before the ring existed and will continue to happen. This does not make it better than a two bar, easier yes, but not better. You still lack a lot of things that a two bar has. Like more skills. If anything, only on nbs would I consider it being better than a two bar because you don't need too much with that class.

2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.

3.) Are you sure you don't want it gone? Complaining on the forums about how awful it is to the developers might come off that way. It's not better than a two bar, it's more of a sacrifice in my opinion. See above.

4.) Possibly, but as I said the only real difference for me is the navigation. You can still apply all those same buffs with other skills, sets, and so on. So I don't see how an experienced player without the ring would do horribly against an experienced player with the ring. The only difference is one of them just has it on one bar while the other has it on two. And if you are skilled with using two bars then this really shouldn't be a problem. It would be one thing if these buffs did not exist outside the ring, then I could see the problem.

jaws343

DaisyRay wrote: »

2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.

This is incredibly disingenuous.

Yes, there are sets that let you get ults just as quick, but... They require either wearing a full 5 piece sets, which all mostly come with some sort of mechanic to activate, or a cooldown on activation, or in the case of bombers, they require you to kill people to activate class passives.

Oakensoul gives you permanent major heroism, something never avaiable in game permanently before, plus all the other buffs, plus the spots for two 5 piece sets that give even more ult gain if wanted. Oakensoul, in it's current form, would be too powerful if it were a two piece monster set. It would be too powerful as a 5 piece set. I mean, before this patch, people were complaining that Kynmarcher and Deadric Trickery provided too much, and they are nowhere near as powerful as Oakensoul.

That being said.. I think I just figured out my next build.

Cuddlypuff

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

What have we learned from using a set to change a meta, or bring balance to the farce?

To be fair, I'd say balance has been restored. Recall that we only lost the damage meta when Mechanical Acuity was nerfed from it's instant 100% crit version, effectively nullifying tether bombing and ganking overnight. This led to such a dreary tank meta that many PVPers simply just quit rather than consistently stall / stalemate every fight.

That's not even remotely true. Bombers and gankers never dictate the landscape of pvp lol. Gankers have been universal throughout every patch. Tell me a single patch you haven't seen snipe ganks on your recap or people attempting to snipe you. They never go away. Only bombers became more scarce but again bombers don't dictate the state of pvp. There's always more non-bombers than bombers in pvp.

Also mechanical acuity was just the easy man's way to bomb and gank. Anyone could slap on MA and be a ganker or bomber. I've ran regular new moons and deadlands assassins during that time period and could hit 13k surprise attacks/ 10k+ incaps the same way a MA acuity ganker could. MA just made it painfully easy to do through accessibility

Haha you haven't seen our bombers then

But in all seriousness, bombers have always been relevant, even mandatory in any objective fight. They are the only role capable of consistently and single handedly turning the fight around. Good bombers literally spook zergs so badly that they can fake out ultis and panicked retreats without even committing anything.

Holycannoli

auz wrote: »

Yes. The 2 bars and buff management is part of what makes this game interesting.

I would argue it's this game's greatest drawback. Would be so much better if we had multiple hotbars at the same time so most of our skills could be used without clunky weapon swapping.

You know, like most other MMORPGs.

But I'm also PC master race.

Wolfpaw

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

After PVPing for a solid week this patch, I've come around to the realization that Oakensoul is the best thing to ever happen to Cyrodiil. For the record, I don't even use it. Thanks to Oakensoul, the tank/heal/stall meta is officially dead. Even if people still try to build as tanks, they will simply get VDed or Occulted by several nearby Oakengankers. I couldn't even care less if the ring goes on unchanged. Players are actually dying all over the place now in Cyrodiil and it is truly wonderful.

Agree.

The internet doesn't hear this much, but my initial jump to judgement pre release was wrong. I am really enjoying PvP right now.

xylena_lazarow

I'm enjoying this meta more than the previous one, since it feels like overall players are doing more damage and playing more aggressively. There are still a lot of stalemated duels, brick tanks, and high mobility heal stack groups. The extreme ends of damage and survivability are still obnoxious to play against.

Holycannoli

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Agree.

The internet doesn't hear this much, but my initial jump to judgement pre release was wrong. I am really enjoying PvP right now.

I agree too. I do have to figure out new builds because my characters are entirely too squishy now but I like the pace.

Still wishing it took longer to break into and capture keeps though, like in the very old days when you actually had to use Siege Shield and work on capturing and defending and it took time.

Dem_kitkats1

FluffWit wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

[snip]

In a way that's a good thing it's really hurt the more organized groups and made a fairer playing field for the pug groups.

After all Zenimax's failed efforts to nerf ball groups that just made them strongly they've ended up doing it by accident and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

[edited to remove quote]

I don't know where you've been playing, but I don't see ball groups struggling anymore than usual. They still have an abundance of healing and now access to all major buffs in which they can min max their roles even better. And now bombers don't have to sacrifice a 5 piece or monster to build ulti.

DrSlaughtr

Holycannoli wrote: »

auz wrote: »

Yes. The 2 bars and buff management is part of what makes this game interesting.

I would argue it's this game's greatest drawback. Would be so much better if we had multiple hotbars at the same time so most of our skills could be used without clunky weapon swapping.

You know, like most other MMORPGs.

But I'm also PC master race.

If you don't like the bar system because it's not like other mmos, then why play it? It's built to work on a controller and not being able to just lazily run down your hot bar is what sets it apart from the usual suspects.

MEBengalsFan2001

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

[snip]

In a way that's a good thing it's really hurt the more organized groups and made a fairer playing field for the pug groups.

After all Zenimax's failed efforts to nerf ball groups that just made them strongly they've ended up doing it by accident and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

That's not what its done at all. It's made pretty much just tower jumping oakensoul players, and being ganked driving more players to stacking and/or ball groups. Moderate groups either waste time chasing humpers and cloakers, or get zerged down when it run into full faction stacks or ball groups. Ball groups are stronger than ever

[edited to remove quote]

It has driven many players to QUIT PVP until this is fixed. I've given up on PVP. Going 1v1 I usually am ok even against gankers, but against anyone with Oakensoul I'm dead rather easily even on my full defensive backbar. Not even worth playing PVP unless you have the ring yourself. And if you try to farm the ring, good luck trying to get it.

The ring should be for PVE only IMO. For PVP, it should be turned off.

Urzigurumash

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

So you're trying to say a set is balancing pvp? Sounds like the set is overperforming.

Sets never should balance pvp, they should be trying to make the game balance on it's own. Not slapping sets on the game to fix balance. Zos needs to stop introducing sets to balance the game and fix broken crap.

Dark convergence didn't fix game balance, Plaguebreak didn't fix balance, Crimson didn't, malacath didin't, Sload's didn't.
Oakensoul doesnt either. It's just OP in pvp for the same of OP

They need to actually make the game balanced and stop using sets to balance pvp that is terribly balanced

Yeah well everything is grey, balance is never entirely "fixed" or "broken" and never will be.

This ring creates new imbalances while resolving old ones. Like Plaguebreak did with Purges.

TechMaybeHic

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

[snip]

In a way that's a good thing it's really hurt the more organized groups and made a fairer playing field for the pug groups.

After all Zenimax's failed efforts to nerf ball groups that just made them strongly they've ended up doing it by accident and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

That's not what its done at all. It's made pretty much just tower jumping oakensoul players, and being ganked driving more players to stacking and/or ball groups. Moderate groups either waste time chasing humpers and cloakers, or get zerged down when it run into full faction stacks or ball groups. Ball groups are stronger than ever

[edited to remove quote]

It has driven many players to QUIT PVP until this is fixed. I've given up on PVP. Going 1v1 I usually am ok even against gankers, but against anyone with Oakensoul I'm dead rather easily even on my full defensive backbar. Not even worth playing PVP unless you have the ring yourself. And if you try to farm the ring, good luck trying to get it.

The ring should be for PVE only IMO. For PVP, it should be turned off.

I actually just gave in and got the ring and it only took me 30 minutes. Took 3 vents, 1 Crab boss, 1 time mining, 1 loot box, then like a dozen mobs. Probably just has to do with timing.

It will get nerfed eventually. Question is when. Really not worth arguing with people as they are mostly irrational.

Holycannoli

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't like the bar system because it's not like other mmos, then why play it? It's built to work on a controller and not being able to just lazily run down your hot bar is what sets it apart from the usual suspects.

Because despite this game being obviously developed for consoles it's still a fun game, and it's Elder Scrolls which I've been familiar with since Daggerfall.

I'm just not naive enough to think it's biggest drawback is actually one of its strengths. What it is is a limitation for the sake of consoles. We all have to deal with it and so it's not a major drawback, so it's overall acceptable.

DaisyRay

Forum People: I can't beat on new players or 1vx people so I'm going to cry on the forums until developers give in to my demands.

It's laughable, I haven't even been here this long and I've seen this same argument about multiple items. Always claiming people are quitting pvp, yet pvp is pop locked every single night. No one even talks about it in zone save maybe one or two people. No one really cares except the people who complain about literally every single thing. Maybe you should try some pve, it's a lot easier.

Urzigurumash

I definitely play in the "Tanklet" style traditionally, as some have called it, i.e. Half-Tank / Half-DD. This ring is not useable with this playstyle, but now it's clear that I can't deal as much damage playing in that way as a "Full DD" can, i.e. somebody with 100% uptime on Force and Berserk. So it appears a bit more "Trinity" has been introduced to PvP.

Of course a few Ultimates violate this possibly newly struck balance. Whether this ring has really struck this balance or not in the absence of those Ults, I'm quite sure yet, seems it may have.

Why couldn't they just give us some sets that allow you to have more uptime on Force and Berserk in PvP and 2 bars? Because then you could have that and also sit on a defensive backbar, for better blocking / healing / evasion.

Urzigurumash

Holycannoli wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't like the bar system because it's not like other mmos, then why play it? It's built to work on a controller and not being able to just lazily run down your hot bar is what sets it apart from the usual suspects.

Because despite this game being obviously developed for consoles it's still a fun game, and it's Elder Scrolls which I've been familiar with since Daggerfall.

I'm just not naive enough to think it's biggest drawback is actually one of its strengths. What it is is a limitation for the sake of consoles. We all have to deal with it and so it's not a major drawback, so it's overall acceptable.

You see it as a drawback, not all of us do. I want limitations to force one to work harder. In general I don't want add-ons in PvP, you should have to train hard enough you gain an intuitive feel for skill durations, etc. I want less UI, not more. So I like this game on console. Simply a matter of taste.

And neither is really more "skillful", I guess you could say data-rich UIs favor "skill", and data-poor UIs favor "talent", I guess, but again one can hypothetically gain enough "understanding" (skil in Icelandic, i.e. the root meaning of "skill" in English) of how things are timed in this game that they could play without any UI.

DrSlaughtr

Holycannoli wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't like the bar system because it's not like other mmos, then why play it? It's built to work on a controller and not being able to just lazily run down your hot bar is what sets it apart from the usual suspects.

Because despite this game being obviously developed for consoles it's still a fun game, and it's Elder Scrolls which I've been familiar with since Daggerfall.

I'm just not naive enough to think it's biggest drawback is actually one of its strengths. What it is is a limitation for the sake of consoles. We all have to deal with it and so it's not a major drawback, so it's overall acceptable.

You do realize plenty of people on PC also use a controller, right?