The Oakensoul Ring has ended the PVP tank meta and ushered in another glorious damage meta
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auz✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Yes. The 2 bars and buff management is part of what makes this game interesting.
I would argue it's this game's greatest drawback. Would be so much better if we had multiple hotbars at the same time so most of our skills could be used without clunky weapon swapping.
You know, like most other MMORPGs.
But I'm also PC master race.
That is exactly why I play this game and not other mmos.2 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Forum People: I can't beat on new players or 1vx people so I'm going to cry on the forums until developers give in to my demands.
It's laughable, I haven't even been here this long and I've seen this same argument about multiple items. Always claiming people are quitting pvp, yet pvp is pop locked every single night. No one even talks about it in zone save maybe one or two people. No one really cares except the people who complain about literally every single thing. Maybe you should try some pve, it's a lot easier.
You are just assuming a lot of things. it's not just solo 1vXers that are not happy with the ring. Because like has been stated many times there are few of them left now. Actually, I believe the vocal majority are simply long-term players that often play in groups but have taken the time to learn mechanics well.
The ring isn't healthy for balanced pvp. Not for solo pvp and not for group pvp. It just raises the skill floor too much.
You said you were a new player and thats great. I'm not surprised you do better with the ring. But the fact is that it will only hinder you in the long run. If plan to improve at pvp( and I don't mean you specifically but all new players) you have to learn how to manage your buffs, learn when to risk not having one up if you are going for the kill. learn the timing for swapping between front and backbar. I don't see why improvement; especially in an mmo is a bad thing.7 -
Kory✭✭✭✭People going crazy about the new shiny ring meanwhile 2 bar builds are doing just fine to say the least...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gTr0nXt3w 4 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭People going crazy about the new shiny ring meanwhile 2 bar builds are doing just fine to say the least...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gTr0nXt3w
none of those clips are even from this patch with oaken releasedEdited by Alchimiste1 on 28 June 2022 02:4014 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I ran it tonight and while everyone is going damage or ulti uptime, I was just incredibly tanky and still gained damage from my 2 bar build. Had plenty of killing blows.
I guess if that's how they want to play this, then we will play it. Feel sorry for the people who cannot for whatever reason in this meta.Edited by TechMaybeHic on 28 June 2022 03:101 -
Ahk1lleez✭✭✭
2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, there are sets that let you get ults just as quick, but... They require either wearing a full 5 piece sets, which all mostly come with some sort of mechanic to activate, or a cooldown on activation, or in the case of bombers, they require you to kill people to activate class passives.
Oakensoul gives you permanent major heroism, something never avaiable in game permanently before, plus all the other buffs, plus the spots for two 5 piece sets that give even more ult gain if wanted. Oakensoul, in it's current form, would be too powerful if it were a two piece monster set. It would be too powerful as a 5 piece set. I mean, before this patch, people were complaining that Kynmarcher and Deadric Trickery provided too much, and they are nowhere near as powerful as Oakensoul.
That being said.. I think I just figured out my next build.
I'm going to have to go ahead and stop you right there. You must be in combat for major heroism to proc...it is not permanent. Major heroism on this mythic is necessary for pugs to have a slim chance of wiping the ball groups that run Cyrodiil. Let's not fool ourselves here, I'm willing to bet each ballgroup has at LEAST one person running Arkasis Genius, which is an INSTANT 44 ult for 3 members, not just the person wearing it. Even if it has a 30 second cooldown, major heroism doesn't compete with this. From a pure ultimate generation standpoint MH is better, but you get far more utility out of Arkasis. And before you go off and say "you're comparing a 5 piece set to a 1 piece mythic" just stop it. If pugs are wearing Arkasis it benefits nobody but themselves, and if they're running solo building with Arkasis is not viable. If you're going to have a set that specifically seeks to empower people running within a group with increased ult gen, then it makes sense to have a set that empowers those that don't without it having to be a 2 piece monster set, a 3 piece or a 5 piece.
This mythic has given those who aren't running in a ball group a chance to compete. And let us be perfectly honest here, it's a step in the right direction but until more is done like eliminating specific HOT stacking via battlespirit it must remain as is for the health of the game. I know we're going to go off in the weeds about balance among players that are playing solo, heavy attack builds, gankers and whatnot, but let's not forget what Cyrodiil was meant to be. Large scale war, not running around solo or in a small group looking to wreck new and bad players en masse. We seem to have forgotten that because playing the objectives is a waste of time being that the rewards for winning the campaigns are terrible. What's more, those builds will continue to exist long after a nerf to Oakensoul just as they did prior to it unless ZOS intends on reworking the abilities and sets that make them possible in the first place.Edited by Ahk1lleez on 28 June 2022 04:273 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, there are sets that let you get ults just as quick, but... They require either wearing a full 5 piece sets, which all mostly come with some sort of mechanic to activate, or a cooldown on activation, or in the case of bombers, they require you to kill people to activate class passives.
Oakensoul gives you permanent major heroism, something never avaiable in game permanently before, plus all the other buffs, plus the spots for two 5 piece sets that give even more ult gain if wanted. Oakensoul, in it's current form, would be too powerful if it were a two piece monster set. It would be too powerful as a 5 piece set. I mean, before this patch, people were complaining that Kynmarcher and Deadric Trickery provided too much, and they are nowhere near as powerful as Oakensoul.
That being said.. I think I just figured out my next build.
I'm going to have to go ahead and stop you right there. You must be in combat for major heroism to proc...it is not permanent. Major heroism on this mythic is necessary for pugs to have a slim chance of wiping the ball groups that run Cyrodiil. Let's not fool ourselves here, I'm willing to bet each ballgroup has at LEAST one person running Arkasis Genius, which is an INSTANT 44 ult for 3 members, not just the person wearing it. Even if it has a 30 second cooldown, major heroism doesn't compete with this. From a pure ultimate generation standpoint MH is better, but you get far more utility out of Arkasis. And before you go off and say "you're comparing a 5 piece set to a 1 piece mythic" just stop it. If pugs are wearing Arkasis it benefits nobody but themselves, and if they're running solo building with Arkasis is not viable. If you're going to have a set that specifically seeks to empower people running within a group with increased ult gen, then it makes sense to have a set that empowers those that don't without it having to be a 2 piece monster set, a 3 piece or a 5 piece.
This mythic has given those who aren't running in a ball group a chance to compete. And let us be perfectly honest here, it's a step in the right direction but until more is done like eliminating specific HOT stacking via battlespirit it must remain as is for the health of the game. I know we're going to go off in the weeds about balance among players that are playing solo, heavy attack builds, gankers and whatnot, but let's not forget what Cyrodiil was meant to be. Large scale war, not running around solo or in a small group looking to wreck new and bad players en masse. We seem to have forgotten that because playing the objectives is a waste of time being that the rewards for winning the campaigns are terrible. What's more, those builds will continue to exist long after a nerf to Oakensoul just as they did prior to it unless ZOS intends on reworking the abilities and sets that make them possible in the first place.
So the ring was needed to take on ball groups huh. I guess we can disable it in BGs then since there are no ball groups there.9 -
AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭[snip] PvP is a competitive environment and should remain that way. Ever since mythics and overtunned procs where introduced all this has diminished. Insane how wrong zenimax has PvP. Such a shame from the brilliance that was 1.6 patch.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 10:5811 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That is exactly why I play this game and not other mmos.
In fairness the game is balanced around this limited 2-bar setup, so to reverse it for PC and give us access to many more skill slots would be disastrous lol.
I'm not complaining too much you know. I do play the game after all. I just wish it wasn't designed like this.
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TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[[snip] PvP is a competitive environment and should remain that way. Ever since mythics and overtunned procs where introduced all this has diminished. Insane how wrong zenimax has PvP. Such a shame from the brilliance that was 1.6 patch.
You do have a point even if I am not actually bothered by it helping the lower-end do better, and even appreciate it being available for accessibility. The problem is that I don't really see that as much. It's the mid-level and above who are also using it to do some truly over-the-top things.
I started using it to keep up. There's nothing a back bar can give me to keep up with ultimate burst windows to match every 6 seconds of CC immunity, 90% crit damage modifiers, more raw damage, and no need to take 3 seconds at minimum to buff every few seconds. What's going to help me? A defensive and offensive ult option? Great. I can pick one and they'll use theirs twice in that time
The only downside to using this item is when it gets nerfed, it's going to be rough to go back and manage 2 bars again.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 11:022 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[snip] PvP is a competitive environment and should remain that way. Ever since mythics and overtunned procs where introduced all this has diminished. Insane how wrong zenimax has PvP. Such a shame from the brilliance that was 1.6 patch.
Do you think Cyrodiil is a competitive environment? Well it is competitive but maybe not in the way you think. It's competitive on a macro scale, capturing and holding keeps and resources while cutting off enemy keeps. It's not 1v1 competitive and never has been. It's designed for large scale PvP battles. It's designed to be about outmaneuvering the other two alliances and maximizing points per tick. Sure, individual builds contribute much to it but the overall cohesion of the alliance and proper strategy is what rules Cyrodiil. That's where the competition is. There are sets and build designed around exactly this macro strategy, to kill groups.
Unless your goals in Cyrodiil differ from mine. Victory in the campaign is what matters to me.
If you're talking BGs or duels, or maybe Imperial City you have a stronger point.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 11:031 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, there are sets that let you get ults just as quick, but... They require either wearing a full 5 piece sets, which all mostly come with some sort of mechanic to activate, or a cooldown on activation, or in the case of bombers, they require you to kill people to activate class passives.
Oakensoul gives you permanent major heroism, something never avaiable in game permanently before, plus all the other buffs, plus the spots for two 5 piece sets that give even more ult gain if wanted. Oakensoul, in it's current form, would be too powerful if it were a two piece monster set. It would be too powerful as a 5 piece set. I mean, before this patch, people were complaining that Kynmarcher and Deadric Trickery provided too much, and they are nowhere near as powerful as Oakensoul.
That being said.. I think I just figured out my next build.
I'm going to have to go ahead and stop you right there. You must be in combat for major heroism to proc...it is not permanent.
Wdym combat state in cyro is permanent, unlike 10s of natural ultgain on LA or heal. Oaken allows me to almost always open the fight with onslaught and just run around in sneak for the rest of the time.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭
2.) There are other sets that give people ults quickly as well. Like whatever the necro bombers are wearing or the ball groups. Look at ball groups before this ring and how they all get their ults back pretty quickly despite just bombing a whole group.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, there are sets that let you get ults just as quick, but... They require either wearing a full 5 piece sets, which all mostly come with some sort of mechanic to activate, or a cooldown on activation, or in the case of bombers, they require you to kill people to activate class passives.
Oakensoul gives you permanent major heroism, something never avaiable in game permanently before, plus all the other buffs, plus the spots for two 5 piece sets that give even more ult gain if wanted. Oakensoul, in it's current form, would be too powerful if it were a two piece monster set. It would be too powerful as a 5 piece set. I mean, before this patch, people were complaining that Kynmarcher and Deadric Trickery provided too much, and they are nowhere near as powerful as Oakensoul.
That being said.. I think I just figured out my next build.
I'm going to have to go ahead and stop you right there. You must be in combat for major heroism to proc...it is not permanent. Major heroism on this mythic is necessary for pugs to have a slim chance of wiping the ball groups that run Cyrodiil. Let's not fool ourselves here, I'm willing to bet each ballgroup has at LEAST one person running Arkasis Genius, which is an INSTANT 44 ult for 3 members, not just the person wearing it. Even if it has a 30 second cooldown, major heroism doesn't compete with this. From a pure ultimate generation standpoint MH is better, but you get far more utility out of Arkasis. And before you go off and say "you're comparing a 5 piece set to a 1 piece mythic" just stop it. If pugs are wearing Arkasis it benefits nobody but themselves, and if they're running solo building with Arkasis is not viable. If you're going to have a set that specifically seeks to empower people running within a group with increased ult gen, then it makes sense to have a set that empowers those that don't without it having to be a 2 piece monster set, a 3 piece or a 5 piece.
This mythic has given those who aren't running in a ball group a chance to compete. And let us be perfectly honest here, it's a step in the right direction but until more is done like eliminating specific HOT stacking via battlespirit it must remain as is for the health of the game. I know we're going to go off in the weeds about balance among players that are playing solo, heavy attack builds, gankers and whatnot, but let's not forget what Cyrodiil was meant to be. Large scale war, not running around solo or in a small group looking to wreck new and bad players en masse. We seem to have forgotten that because playing the objectives is a waste of time being that the rewards for winning the campaigns are terrible. What's more, those builds will continue to exist long after a nerf to Oakensoul just as they did prior to it unless ZOS intends on reworking the abilities and sets that make them possible in the first place.
First, doesn't matter if you have to be in combat to proc major heroism, because you're in combat more often than not.
Secondly, it does not magically make a bunch of solo pugs with no desire to organize able to defeat a ball group, who themselves are not only running arkasis, but also at least one healer+ running oak. Ball groups are stronger because of the ring. One healer can pop necro rez every 12 seconds. Another can pop rite of passage every 10 seconds.
This idea that the ring is some great weapon against ball groups who themselves can run it is just not accurate. I've seen plenty of ball groups since the ring's arrival and they are just as hard if not harder to bring down.
The only thing the ring has done for PUGs is make them more effective against other PUGs who don't want to use the ring.I drink and I stream things.4 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Nothing changed in cyro. A good healer or stacking RR will keep ppl alive. If you have to compete with a Oaken user be it PvE or PvP you really have to rethink your approach...lol2
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
How so exactly? Casual randoms are still getting wrecked by smaller groups or even solos. Fighting against a higher floor has made my fights more satisfying and decisive. I can sympathize with the argument that single bar PvP removes a layer of complexity (and thus skill and fun) from the game, but that's an issue of Oakensoul builds outperforming two bar builds at the ceiling, nothing to do with the floor. Optimized two bar builds will still beat unoptimized Oakensoul builds.Alchimiste1 wrote: »It just raises the skill floor too muchPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance2 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
How so exactly? Casual randoms are still getting wrecked by smaller groups or even solos. Fighting against a higher floor has made my fights more satisfying and decisive. I can sympathize with the argument that single bar PvP removes a layer of complexity (and thus skill and fun) from the game, but that's an issue of Oakensoul builds outperforming two bar builds at the ceiling, nothing to do with the floor. Optimized two bar builds will still beat unoptimized Oakensoul builds.Alchimiste1 wrote: »It just raises the skill floor too much
You literally answered part of it yourself. I don’t feel the need to elaborate more right now
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AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
How so exactly? Casual randoms are still getting wrecked by smaller groups or even solos. Fighting against a higher floor has made my fights more satisfying and decisive. I can sympathize with the argument that single bar PvP removes a layer of complexity (and thus skill and fun) from the game, but that's an issue of Oakensoul builds outperforming two bar builds at the ceiling, nothing to do with the floor. Optimized two bar builds will still beat unoptimized Oakensoul builds.Alchimiste1 wrote: »It just raises the skill floor too much
It literally doesn't matter if 2 bar builds will still out perform 1 bar builds. That is not our argument. Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged. It seems Zenimax is trying to balance to game with items and sets. Completely mind boggling how illogical that is. They are so lost for any sense of direction for this game. Id glady stand in full presentation of the combat team and educate them about there own game.4 -
Bloodgroove✭✭If they nerf the ring they need to look at cross-healing too. Resto hot stacking, and 10% to full heals, makes for really narrow burst windows. Healing is overtuned and needs to be addressed. Oakensoul helps with burst.0 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think opinions on this doing anything to tackiness or helping lower skill players will change as more players who feel they don't need the ring start using it. I have the last couple of nights and without being a troll tank build, have occupied full groups if 12 for a few minutes. More than I've ever done before because when I am getting merged, I'm all heals without having to also keep my buffs up. Then I have also seen duo DJs using this, running guard, and overlapping corrosive's.
We are still at the start. There are probably more ways people will find to maximize trolling with this. My opinions changed from wanting it nerfed to being ok with abusing it as long as it isn't. Doesn't change whether it should it shouldn't.
Then when the dust settles, we can talk about what really is impacting tackiness and making ball groups even stronger in occult overload.0 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged.
If people had followed the last 5 or 6 combat updates, none of these changes would come as a surprise. Multiple times they have stated, rather obliquely, that they want to close the gap between new/casual and sweaty players.
These changes might be bad for veteran players, for 1vxers, for skilled streamers, etc. But they are not bad for the health of the game. The sole reason this game is still around is that they have systematically catered to casual players.
The average ESO player is terrible at the game. And it doesn't seem like they care about getting better. All these changes ease and improve their experience. In pvp, they turn regular cannon fodder into a threat.6 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged.
If people had followed the last 5 or 6 combat updates, none of these changes would come as a surprise. Multiple times they have stated, rather obliquely, that they want to close the gap between new/casual and sweaty players.
These changes might be bad for veteran players, for 1vxers, for skilled streamers, etc. But they are not bad for the health of the game. The sole reason this game is still around is that they have systematically catered to casual players.
The average ESO player is terrible at the game. And it doesn't seem like they care about getting better. All these changes ease and improve their experience. In pvp, they turn regular cannon fodder into a threat.
It will be absolutely terrible for new players in pvp though. Getting hit by one shot gankers and builds. Quickly being a target in a zerg because killing them becomes a 12k AOE in their buddies, and guilds who might teach, won't want to carry that trap.
You guys keep making up a narrative that doesn't exist, but I really can't blame you as we do have players complaining their targets are harder as well. They're notEdited by TechMaybeHic on 29 June 2022 11:130 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭TechMaybeHic wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged.
If people had followed the last 5 or 6 combat updates, none of these changes would come as a surprise. Multiple times they have stated, rather obliquely, that they want to close the gap between new/casual and sweaty players.
These changes might be bad for veteran players, for 1vxers, for skilled streamers, etc. But they are not bad for the health of the game. The sole reason this game is still around is that they have systematically catered to casual players.
The average ESO player is terrible at the game. And it doesn't seem like they care about getting better. All these changes ease and improve their experience. In pvp, they turn regular cannon fodder into a threat.
It will be absolutely terrible for new players in pvp though. Getting hit by one shot gankers and builds. Quickly being a target in a zerg because killing them becomes a 12k AOE in their buddies, and guilds who might teach, won't want to carry that trap.
You guys keep making up a narrative that doesn't exist, but I really can't blame you as we do have players complaining their targets are harder as well. They're not
New players have been getting one shot and stomped by elaborate builds since forever. Now they feel like they contribute. You can find them yelling about it everywhere. They are here around in the forums, in reddit, in twitch chats, etc.
I'm not acting like this is the situation I'd like. It's just how this game goes. This is primarily a casual game, the pvp included. Now they've made egregious changes in a casual direction.Those who hope things were balanced around the minority of skilled players are simply out of the loop.1 -
DaisyRay✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Forum People: I can't beat on new players or 1vx people so I'm going to cry on the forums until developers give in to my demands.
It's laughable, I haven't even been here this long and I've seen this same argument about multiple items. Always claiming people are quitting pvp, yet pvp is pop locked every single night. No one even talks about it in zone save maybe one or two people. No one really cares except the people who complain about literally every single thing. Maybe you should try some pve, it's a lot easier.
You are just assuming a lot of things. it's not just solo 1vXers that are not happy with the ring. Because like has been stated many times there are few of them left now. Actually, I believe the vocal majority are simply long-term players that often play in groups but have taken the time to learn mechanics well.
The ring isn't healthy for balanced pvp. Not for solo pvp and not for group pvp. It just raises the skill floor too much.
You said you were a new player and thats great. I'm not surprised you do better with the ring. But the fact is that it will only hinder you in the long run. If plan to improve at pvp( and I don't mean you specifically but all new players) you have to learn how to manage your buffs, learn when to risk not having one up if you are going for the kill. learn the timing for swapping between front and backbar. I don't see why improvement; especially in an mmo is a bad thing.
Before the ring, I had been practicing all of that. However, despite playing this game for almost two years (so maybe I'm not that new), bar swapping remains a challenge. This is why I will continue to wear the ring even after it has been nerfed. It would be simpler if we only had one bar and more slots. The ring would no longer be that important to me. Trying to swap bars in the middle of a fight with experienced players who have been doing pvp for years never ends well. It's fine on my healer because I can usually heal through my mistakes, but on my sorc, I'm instantly melted. I know you're saying I should just keep trying, but I've tried and failed to learn how to properly bar swap. So, yeah, I'm going to take the easy route even if it means people think less of me.
I have nothing against people who are calling for the nerf though even if I disagree with some of your points. I don't think I'm better than someone with two bars just because I have the uptime on my buffs. You know, if they just took buffs out pvp all together and made the ring like it was originally, maybe no one would be upset. Idk.⭑･ﾟﾟ･*:༅｡.｡༅:*ﾟ:*:✼✿ DaisyRay ✿✼:*ﾟ:༅｡.｡༅:*･ﾟﾟ･⭑4 -
DaisyRay✭✭✭[snip] PvP is a competitive environment and should remain that way. Ever since mythics and overtunned procs where introduced all this has diminished. Insane how wrong zenimax has PvP. Such a shame from the brilliance that was 1.6 patch.
I'm sorry I haven't spent a hundred years in this game perfecting everything and predicting other players. I'm sure it must have been very upsetting for you to spend hours and hours learning how to do something only for an item to come along and teach new players how to do the same thing in a simpler fashion. [snip] Things are constantly changing and improving for those who come after you. That's the way it is. There are very few games that do things the same way they did when they first launched. Despite having few people willing to teach me, I've been learning how to pvp. I learned almost everything on my own, and I don't consider myself a bad player just because I can't utilize bar swapping. You all act as if it's something that anyone can learn overnight, without specifying how long it took you. I hope I am not still playing this game in eight years, so I may never learn to bar swap. This is why I'll continue to use it even if it's nerfed.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 11:15⭑･ﾟﾟ･*:༅｡.｡༅:*ﾟ:*:✼✿ DaisyRay ✿✼:*ﾟ:༅｡.｡༅:*･ﾟﾟ･⭑3 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It literally doesn't matter if 2 bar builds will still out perform 1 bar builds. That is not our argument. Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged. It seems Zenimax is trying to balance to game with items and sets. Completely mind boggling how illogical that is. They are so lost for any sense of direction for this game. Id glady stand in full presentation of the combat team and educate them about there own game.
Catering to the elites does not sell a MMORPG. You must cater to the masses, the "massive" in "massive multiplayer online roleplaying game" [snip]
This is also not a PvP MMORPG. It only has it as an option.
[snip]
I'll also tell you for me I generally can't bar swap in a battle, nor can I dodge roll or even fire off a skill sometimes. The servers cannot handle things anymore, even with the upgrade PC-NA got. It's a major hindrance not being able to react. Oakensoul at least takes care of the bar swapping.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on 29 June 2022 19:453 -
Cuddlypuff✭✭✭✭Since this thread is being derailed by what appears to be bruised egos dying to less skilled players, there's one key point I feel needs addressing. A damage meta is carried by easy access to damage. Let that sink in. If only the sweatiest players could do enough damage to kill, then we'd still be stuck in the same stale tank meta.
PVP does not have to be about having the most well-rounded build that can survive all threats and still put down anyone 1v1. That's an ego problem not a game design problem. I do not build against 1 shot ganking as I prefer to maintain my minmaxed bombing playstyle. I expect it to happen and sure enough all my deaths are 1 shot ganks. Dying to "bad" players isn't going to magically alter the fact that I'm better than 99% of Cyrodiil. Stop being insecure.10 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Forum People: I can't beat on new players or 1vx people so I'm going to cry on the forums until developers give in to my demands.
It's laughable, I haven't even been here this long and I've seen this same argument about multiple items. Always claiming people are quitting pvp, yet pvp is pop locked every single night. No one even talks about it in zone save maybe one or two people. No one really cares except the people who complain about literally every single thing. Maybe you should try some pve, it's a lot easier.
You are just assuming a lot of things. it's not just solo 1vXers that are not happy with the ring. Because like has been stated many times there are few of them left now. Actually, I believe the vocal majority are simply long-term players that often play in groups but have taken the time to learn mechanics well.
The ring isn't healthy for balanced pvp. Not for solo pvp and not for group pvp. It just raises the skill floor too much.
You said you were a new player and thats great. I'm not surprised you do better with the ring. But the fact is that it will only hinder you in the long run. If plan to improve at pvp( and I don't mean you specifically but all new players) you have to learn how to manage your buffs, learn when to risk not having one up if you are going for the kill. learn the timing for swapping between front and backbar. I don't see why improvement; especially in an mmo is a bad thing.
Before the ring, I had been practicing all of that. However, despite playing this game for almost two years (so maybe I'm not that new), bar swapping remains a challenge. This is why I will continue to wear the ring even after it has been nerfed. It would be simpler if we only had one bar and more slots. The ring would no longer be that important to me. Trying to swap bars in the middle of a fight with experienced players who have been doing pvp for years never ends well. It's fine on my healer because I can usually heal through my mistakes, but on my sorc, I'm instantly melted. I know you're saying I should just keep trying, but I've tried and failed to learn how to properly bar swap. So, yeah, I'm going to take the easy route even if it means people think less of me.
I have nothing against people who are calling for the nerf though even if I disagree with some of your points. I don't think I'm better than someone with two bars just because I have the uptime on my buffs. You know, if they just took buffs out pvp all together and made the ring like it was originally, maybe no one would be upset. Idk.
I actually support this helping players like yourself. My friends are not all elite, probably none would claim to be; nor even decent depending on the day. I've ran with literal zergs of players that are not PvPers even a little bit to get them AP and some fun, and if we are lucky; we get some of those players interested in more than just a casual night once a week.
Thing is, a little toning down and it still can make it easier for many. At the level it's at, as I run to try to assist these players, they can be instagibbed with no chance to even throw them a heal let alone force someone to deal with me first. If it's someone doing defensive stuff, they can't dent them at all. There can be frustration and turn off depending on how much of that happens, and there's always been some. The ring just makes much more.
All I'm saying Is there's some room where this ring can still help players do decent that need it, without making it so attractive for better players to abuse it. 1 on 1 it may not be that great outside some very cheese builds, but mass Cyrodiil you wind up with a battery for constant coordinated ulti-dumps on masses and that's going to really show more and more2 -
ArctosCethlenn✭✭✭✭
Why was he being pedantic and talking about oak's major hero not being permanent because you have to be in combat for it to work, then bringing up arkasis even though that also has a combat requirement?TheEndBringer wrote: »First, doesn't matter if you have to be in combat to proc major heroism, because you're in combat more often than not.
Secondly, it does not magically make a bunch of solo pugs with no desire to organize able to defeat a ball group, who themselves are not only running arkasis, but also at least one healer+ running oak. Ball groups are stronger because of the ring. One healer can pop necro rez every 12 seconds. Another can pop rite of passage every 10 seconds.
This idea that the ring is some great weapon against ball groups who themselves can run it is just not accurate. I've seen plenty of ball groups since the ring's arrival and they are just as hard if not harder to bring down.
The only thing the ring has done for PUGs is make them more effective against other PUGs who don't want to use the ring.
Items to introduce a handicap to help lower skilled players fight higher skilled ones do not work and have never worked. Anything a less skilled player can use is going to be more effectively utilized by a high skill player, it doesn't matter if the ring raises the skill floor if balls or 1vx types can run it to raise the skill ceiling too. Look at sets like Converge and Plaguebreak, both introduced to, in zos's own words, "target large groups". The groups all realized hey, nothing stops us from using those too, and we can use them better.1 -
Dem_kitkats1✭✭✭✭I'm sorry I haven't spent a hundred years in this game perfecting everything and predicting other players. I'm sure it must have been very upsetting for you to spend hours and hours learning how to do something only for an item to come along and teach new players how to do the same thing in a simpler fashion. [snip] Things are constantly changing and improving for those who come after you. That's the way it is. There are very few games that do things the same way they did when they first launched. Despite having few people willing to teach me, I've been learning how to pvp. I learned almost everything on my own, and I don't consider myself a bad player just because I can't utilize bar swapping. You all act as if it's something that anyone can learn overnight, without specifying how long it took you. I hope I am not still playing this game in eight years, so I may never learn to bar swap. This is why I'll continue to use it even if it's nerfed.
Players wouldn't be so mad at the ring if it only acted only as a substitute for 2 bar builds and provided similar buffs. However, it far exceeds that. Of course new players are feeling more competitive, because 1 item is providing them with permanent buffs that were very difficult to obtain in the game in the first place. 2 bar builds don't give you those kinds of buffs without sacrifice. This is not a case of it being an item that only helps players with bar swapping and maintaining buffs. Let's not kid ourselves.
Like you, I've only been playing the game for few years, pretty casually, outside of the U.S. on unstable internet. It’s also been a couple years of the worst perfomance that the game has seen so I can sympathize with issues with bar swapping. However, even to me this ring spells easy mode; especially when performance is supposedly getting fixed and has improved (PC NA). Sure it raises the skill floor, but at what cost? Pushing players to buy DLCs to band aid fix issues (performance) and broken mechanics (healing) in the game, further perpetuate gear based and not skilled based play, strengthening and narrowing metas even more, leaving imbalanced classes even further in the dust.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 11:223 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
How so exactly? Casual randoms are still getting wrecked by smaller groups or even solos. Fighting against a higher floor has made my fights more satisfying and decisive. I can sympathize with the argument that single bar PvP removes a layer of complexity (and thus skill and fun) from the game, but that's an issue of Oakensoul builds outperforming two bar builds at the ceiling, nothing to do with the floor. Optimized two bar builds will still beat unoptimized Oakensoul builds.Alchimiste1 wrote: »It just raises the skill floor too much
It literally doesn't matter if 2 bar builds will still out perform 1 bar builds. That is not our argument. Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged. It seems Zenimax is trying to balance to game with items and sets. Completely mind boggling how illogical that is. They are so lost for any sense of direction for this game. Id glady stand in full presentation of the combat team and educate them about there own game.[snip]
[snip]
But, reducing the number of skills you have to activate, in half, to get the same power as 10 skills, is literally carrying a player.
And also, I just put together an Oaken build on my sorc. With the skills having the same damage as my two bar build. However, that build now has Major force (something I would never have in a two bar build), Major Heroism (also wouldn't have), Major Courage (again, wouldn't have), Protection, Brutality (wouldn't have), etc.
I am literally running Ult Gen sets (Corsair, Bloodspawn, Potentates) and getting the same power from my skills as running 2 full damage sets and a damage mythic and even a monster set.
So, same damage, but now I am generating 10+ ult per second. I can cast Shooting Star, at a maximum, once every 14 seconds, and even quicker the more targets I hit with it.
Meteor every 14 seconds is absurd. And my build literally loses nothing important from the two bar build.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 4 July 2022 11:191