Are these the worst PVP scenarios yet?

MEBengalsFan2001 · April 2022

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

dont we all play the same game, with the same sets, skills and classes. how come that not everyone is an unkillable 1vxer who kills 20 ppl? i wonder what it is, does it involve personal skill lvl and basic understanding of the games mechanics... No that would be crazy wouldnt it

It is probably exploits, what I have learned that is available to exploit (cheat) on consoles explained a lot of why some players can do 1v20 and the 1 player isn't using towers etc... they are in the open field simply going toe to toe with the 20 and wiping the floor with them. I've seen some highly skilled players killed rather easily/quickly not because of gear or skill but simply from the other player not being able to be damaged but being able to kill players with 2-3 hits.

I've seen a tank who usually can take a beating was recently killed by a player with two simple hits. The tank had 5 hots on him and well over 35k resistance and ws blocking etc... two hits, somebody probably cheating.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

dont we all play the same game, with the same sets, skills and classes

Not at all. There's a massive power gap between the floor and ceiling for all of combat prowess, gear/class/spec, and group comp. Once you practice and optimize, you basically are playing a different game from those who don't. But shouldn't skill win? Sure, but the unoptimized players need a fighting chance, not for everything they do to be futile.

Iriidius · April 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

The game allows you to have very high dmg (especially burst) while having high mitigation and healing if you choose to build that way. Add on top of that the ridiculously OP buff sets available now and you get the situation described. Blame poor game design, not the players. There's also nothing stopping you running similar builds, as long as you have enough PVP experience to make the most of them. It's also perfectly OK to have a zergsweeping/bombing build that can't deal with good players, just avoid the sweaties and go hunt down the zerg.

I got hit last night by two surprise attacks and died. I had 31K resistance (was not debuffed), major protection, minor protection, and was blocking. The NB was right in front of me and not in stealth. Two hits each over 15K in damage were on my death recap. Said player was taken out by 5 players with one focused on group heals. My friend who was with me was like [snip] and saw the same thing.

Go back to my prior post about players using exploits and cheating. It is happening and making PVP very unenjoyable.

Probably a calculation error. I also regulary get hit with full damage while i am blocking, even with shield ulti.

If a player runs so fast and uses LoS so efficent that he becomes untargetable for players following him it doesnt make a differrnce if there are 3 players following him and failing to target him or 25 players failing to target him if nobody can target. It only makes difference how many can target him.
In real life it also doesnt matter if you are hunting an enemy with 1 or 25 men or if they use swords, spears or their fist as weapon if your enemy can run faster than them all and nobody can catch him.

[edited to remove quote]

malistorr · April 2022

Play Ravenwatch no CP/proc.

xFocused · April 2022

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here" when I don't see how that's not impossible. It's a video game and just about every video game in this era has some sort of cheating/glitching/hacking/exploiting taking place. I'm not trying to make excuses for the 25 players who failed to kill 2 players but I don't think that should be seen as "Well that's just not possible!" When it's definitely possible.

Silversmith · April 2022

I can make a Sorc or NB that can 1vx and be unkillable and then turn and burn to kill the weaker/newer players in a group with a proc and an ult.

Can a top gear skilled player kill me 1v1? No.

Can multiple top gear skilled players kill me? No.

Is it skill based? No. It's that ESO has designed it where EHP/Mobility/Sustain + proc damage is vastly greater than those that go a more traditional damage or healing route like in other games.

The best option you can do is just go with the flavor of the month meta that is presented.

Larcomar · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here" when I don't see how that's not impossible. It's a video game and just about every video game in this era has some sort of cheating/glitching/hacking/exploiting taking place. I'm not trying to make excuses for the 25 players who failed to kill 2 players but I don't think that should be seen as "Well that's just not possible!" When it's definitely possible.

Yeah it's a bit odd. People get really upset and go to huge lengths to deny there's any cheating, at all. In an online game... There's actually been some research done on this, and on why people cheat. Something to do with "gaming capital". People just get really invested in being "gud" at a video game. To the point they'll cheat to be better at it. And / or deny cheating takes place because they fell it diminishes their investment / achievement / sense of gudness. Irrational maybe. But when are human beings rational. Esp. when quite a few of them are probably kids.

Personally, I think it's slightly bizarre to claim that ESO is somehow - uniquely amongst online games - cheat free. I mean, leaving aside they can't even get the servers to work, just go look online for a "trainer." But there's so many weird and wacky things going on with the way it's set up it's extremely hard to disentangle what's lag, what's broken set combos, what's LOSing (which is huge adv), what's an exploit and what's an actual hack. Hell, people had a long debate a while back about which of those *was* actually cheating. Views varied surprisingly widely.

Ultimately who cares. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. And if it's not, go do something else. You come across someone who's just unkillable, it doesn't really make much difference if it's a skill, los, sets, exploit or hack. Or plain lag. Just go somewhere else. If they keep showing up, go do something else.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here"

Larcomar wrote: »

Personally, I think it's slightly bizarre to claim that ESO is somehow - uniquely amongst online games - cheat free.

It's weird to me that the first place many players' minds go when they lose is "impossible, must be cheats."

alberichtano · April 2022

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

dont we all play the same game, with the same sets, skills and classes. how come that not everyone is an unkillable 1vxer who kills 20 ppl? i wonder what it is, does it involve personal skill lvl and basic understanding of the games mechanics... No that would be crazy wouldnt it

If there are mechanics that make some unkillable, then the problem is the mechanics, not that not everyone is using said mechanics.

xFocused · April 2022

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here"

Larcomar wrote: »

Personally, I think it's slightly bizarre to claim that ESO is somehow - uniquely amongst online games - cheat free.

It's weird to me that the first place many players' minds go when they lose is "impossible, must be cheats."

So you definitely didn't read my comment, lol, all good, I'll explain it again. I never said that was the first thought that comes to mind is "Welp, they must have cheats". What I said is I don't know why everyone is so quick to dismiss the fact that cheating just can't exist in this game. Why can't it? Bigger AAA games all have cheaters/hackers/glitchers/exploiters etc...so why is it so impossible that ESO can't?

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

What I said is I don't know why everyone is so quick to dismiss the fact that cheating just can't exist in this game.

Most "cheating" accusations are made with no proof whatsoever and can easily be explained by the same busted mechanics these discussions are trying to get ZOS to address. The massive floor/ceiling power gap, class/spec imbalance, overtuned healing and heal stacking, lag... all of these things can and will make legitimate optimized players seem like unkillable "cheaters" compared to the disorganized and unoptimized.

Cases of actual cheating are also generally irrelevant to metagame discussions, the same observed defined problems will still be ongoing even after whatever cheating loophole is fixed.

PhoenixGrey · April 2022

Its certainly possible that the 2 EP players are better at the game than the 25+ dc players.

If so, they are probably reaping the rewards of having a superior skill set.

From my conclusion since everyone is playing the same game, it's certainly a L2P issue for the rest. Most PVP players fail to grasp the concept of burst damage and probably the downfall of those 25+ dc

maxjapank · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here"

Larcomar wrote: »

Personally, I think it's slightly bizarre to claim that ESO is somehow - uniquely amongst online games - cheat free.

It's weird to me that the first place many players' minds go when they lose is "impossible, must be cheats."

So you definitely didn't read my comment, lol, all good, I'll explain it again. I never said that was the first thought that comes to mind is "Welp, they must have cheats". What I said is I don't know why everyone is so quick to dismiss the fact that cheating just can't exist in this game. Why can't it? Bigger AAA games all have cheaters/hackers/glitchers/exploiters etc...so why is it so impossible that ESO can't?

ESO has and has had players who cheat and/or exploit. Period.

VarisVaris · April 2022

maxjapank wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I don't understand the whole "There's no cheating happening here"

Larcomar wrote: »

Personally, I think it's slightly bizarre to claim that ESO is somehow - uniquely amongst online games - cheat free.

It's weird to me that the first place many players' minds go when they lose is "impossible, must be cheats."

So you definitely didn't read my comment, lol, all good, I'll explain it again. I never said that was the first thought that comes to mind is "Welp, they must have cheats". What I said is I don't know why everyone is so quick to dismiss the fact that cheating just can't exist in this game. Why can't it? Bigger AAA games all have cheaters/hackers/glitchers/exploiters etc...so why is it so impossible that ESO can't?

ESO has and has had players who cheat and/or exploit. Period.

While this might be true, their number isn't anywhere remotely close to the made accusations on the forums and in game.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

[snip]

There's zero proof the players in the OP were cheating. You do not need to cheat to do what they did. This is an issue of floor/ceiling power gap and severely unbalanced mechanics, not cheating.

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy · April 2022

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Madhatten512 · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

[snip] Damage is so high this patch no one is immortal. 20 bad players chasing two good ones and not being able to kill them is not a balance issue. I can kite twenty bad players around all day, and I can instantly die to a couple good players that know how to combo. Just get better. Get out of your twenty man zerg, stop faction stacking, get into a smaller group and learn how to play the game. I am not trying to be toxic at all, even though I know it is coming off that way, but this is the problem with the large majority of pvp players in this community. Instead of taking responsibility for bad play they come to the forums and complain and beg for nerfs. [snip] There are no grossly overperforming sets this patch. A couple classes are a bit stronger than others like Dragonkight and Templar, but there is nothing overly absurd about either of them.

[edited for minor baiting]

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

Madhatten512 wrote: »

20 bad players chasing two good ones and not being able to kill them is not a balance issue.

Giving all the agency to the side trying to stall out fights is most definitely a balance issue. Stall metas are considered "unfun" in pretty much every game. The PvP population keeps declining. Those 20 "bad" players obviously aren't being inspired to git gud by these kind of scenarios. I don't know what the correct number for X is in 2vX for a healthy PvP environment that's not totally inaccessible to new/casual players, but fights need to be able to decisively end.

malistorr · April 2022

I played a NB brawler in no CP/proc and wasn't doing well. There are no gimmick sets/procs and it was very difficult to kill ppl. I'm sure I just wasn't very good with the class but the damage was well below average and heals as well. I just couldn't keep up with the templars, sorcs, and DKs. I switched to magplar and have a pretty good build and with a little bit of practice I'm now doing pretty well. I'd say I die a lot less and kill more. When I do die it's mostly when I'm fighting a well-organized ball group and my side is pretty undermanned. The point of this is that by simply switching classes to 1 with much better damage potential and heals I'm doing so much better. This is a clear sign of really bad class balance. Class definitely does matter.

Also I come across specific players who I know have been playing for years. They have many many times more experience than I do have must have their kill combo down cold. By the time I even see them on the screen they've already burst me down and I'm dead. To me it seems like a few of these players are cheating and maybe they are. But I figured they're just really good at sneaking up on ppl from behind and getting off their 2-4 moves before I really even have a chance to react. They must be a glass cannon build because there's no way people can be that fast and could be tanky also while being able to kill that quickly. So either they're cheating or just really good at glass cannon wiping people before the enemy has time to react. There's nothing I can do about it but try to get better and try to see them coming. If they're cheating, shame on ZOS for allowing it. If they're not, kudos to them for being such good players. I just keep playing and get my kills where I can. At least with magplar I'm doing much better than with stamblade.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

malistorr wrote: »

there's no way people can be that fast and could be tanky also while being able to kill that quickly

Yea, they can, and there's no need to cheat. They're running "stat-dense" sets, stacking speed buffs and damage reduction, are well-practiced with their ability bars and combos, and supplement survival with good positioning and use of LoS.

Mankeyyyyy · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

You play on xbox by any chance?

alberichtano · April 2022

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Its certainly possible that the 2 EP players are better at the game than the 25+ dc players.

If so, they are probably reaping the rewards of having a superior skill set.

From my conclusion since everyone is playing the same game, it's certainly a L2P issue for the rest. Most PVP players fail to grasp the concept of burst damage and probably the downfall of those 25+ dc

Yeah, I doubt that. Had they all fought without sets, it would probably have ended very differently.

alberichtano · April 2022

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Madhatten512 wrote: »

20 bad players chasing two good ones and not being able to kill them is not a balance issue.

Giving all the agency to the side trying to stall out fights is most definitely a balance issue. Stall metas are considered "unfun" in pretty much every game. The PvP population keeps declining. Those 20 "bad" players obviously aren't being inspired to git gud by these kind of scenarios. I don't know what the correct number for X is in 2vX for a healthy PvP environment that's not totally inaccessible to new/casual players, but fights need to be able to decisively end.

Agreed. When I was new to PvP I was mowed down by everyone from the leetst leets to the n00biest n00bs. I fell flat to the grass without a hint of a chance 99% of the time. But, I got better. Now I can hold my own against newbies and some non-leet people as well. I am far from good though, so I know to pick my fights if I can.

Lately though, things have changed. The really good ones, the leets, were always hard to kill, but it wasn't impossible. With enough people, perhaps a few siege engines if it was a siege, they could be taken down.

Now however... not so much. If you see a group with the strongest players coming at your keep, you can just as well evacuate, no matter how many you are. You won't be able to take them down. From being able to at least damage the strong players, I can throw all I have at them and barely make a dent, and what damage I can do is healed faster than I can blink. And I am not a slow blinker.

Not sure exactly what has changed, but it is not for the better. From being fairly positive to PvP, I am fast going into ennui. It just isn't fun right now. It is more aggrevation than excitement.

divnyi · April 2022

alberichtano wrote: »

Not sure exactly what has changed

AFAIK they lowered damage via battle spirit a bit before latest patch, and now they introduced hybrid thingy, which allows players to backbar healing staff on both mag and stam builds. Also stam builds now can use class magica heals at full efficiency.

While I do understand reductions in damage (because ganks), they should now reduce healing significantly. You should be only outhealing the DPS if you are full healer, slotting many HoTs and some heal boosting gear. You should not outheal DPS if you just slot some 3 heals on damage char. Yes, I'm talking about DPS, not burst. Because once you become familiar with the game, you can avoid most of the burst conditions or block through them.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

alberichtano wrote: »

Not sure exactly what has changed, but it is not for the better. From being fairly positive to PvP, I am fast going into ennui. It just isn't fun right now. It is more aggrevation than excitement.

Years worth of power creep and mechanical changes that buff the already strong players and strategies, while everything and everyone else gets left further and further behind. Repeated buffs to healing, mitigation, and mobility have raised the defensive power ceiling much higher than that for offense, which leads to these scenarios where competitive players seem "unkillable" and evenly matched fights stalemate. It makes the game feel pointless and futile.

It's not just casuals being driven away, on PC/NA many notable smallscalers and ballgroup guilds have disappeared or drastically cut their playtime in the past year. And it's not just Cyro performance, look at what's happened to BGs.

malistorr · April 2022

xylena_lazarow: I'm sure Zenimax knows. They can see and do analyze player metrics constantly. Of that I'm very sure. It is very obvious that the "decision makers" have not made updating the player base or communicating with them in any way (other than via marketing messaging about new DLC and crown store items you can buy) a priority or something they budget much of any money and effort to at all. The most we get is a message from Kevin or 1 of the other forum admins every few months occasionally acknowledging an issue that many players have complained about. And I mean every few months. There were a few posts about problems with heavy attacks from staves. Hundreds of people complained that ZOS broke basic game mechanics and it took them months to fix this. There were no posts or updates that I ever saw about it. The forum posts just went missing and I noticed in-game months later that things seemed mostly better. While I'm happy it's mostly fixed, the lack of communication is horribly disappointing.

ZOS knows PVP is pretty dead when the event isn't happening. I'm in Ravenwatch and last night at about 11 PM Pacific time there may have been 5-players total there. While this was the middle of the night for much of North America, it's a sign that players went elsewhere (other games). We'll see if ZOS really recodes the game or at least PVP. And by the time they do and it's improved (hopefully), ESO will already be 9-11 years old and it will be really darn hard to win players back to a game with decade-old tech vs. the thousands of competitors that will be available in the market.

I did have stalemates in no CP when using vamp3, Gaze, and Pariah with 1 offensive set. It would obviously be vs. another player with a similar setup. Also I was playing stamblade which in no CP is trash. Heals are bad and so is offense. It wasn't fun for me playing that way (defensively). I wasn't killing enough and I was still dying. So I'm using 2 offensive sets now on magplar and while I do die, at least I'm killing a lot as well. The game is more fun for me this way. There is too much defense and healing and bad class balance. I had to switch classes to be competitive.

Marginis · April 2022

In order for me to make a build that can survive more than one player indefinitely, by myself, I need to give up on a lot of damage. This should be the standard. Unfortunately, there are just some classes that can do everything and do it better than other classes. This is the problem, not that players are generally too tanky. Tanks should be a viable way to play too - but not everyone should be a tank in addition to the rest of their kit.

L_Nici · April 2022

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes indeed.

Madhatten512 · April 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

dont we all play the same game, with the same sets, skills and classes. how come that not everyone is an unkillable 1vxer who kills 20 ppl? i wonder what it is, does it involve personal skill lvl and basic understanding of the games mechanics... No that would be crazy wouldnt it

It is probably exploits, what I have learned that is available to exploit (cheat) on consoles explained a lot of why some players can do 1v20 and the 1 player isn't using towers etc... they are in the open field simply going toe to toe with the 20 and wiping the floor with them. I've seen some highly skilled players killed rather easily/quickly not because of gear or skill but simply from the other player not being able to be damaged but being able to kill players with 2-3 hits.

I've seen a tank who usually can take a beating was recently killed by a player with two simple hits. The tank had 5 hots on him and well over 35k resistance and ws blocking etc... two hits, somebody probably cheating.

I am sad you have Bengals fan in your name. I hate to tell all of you that constantly cry "cheater cheater" every time you get Xed there is not a cheating problem in ESO like there is in other online games. Zenimax made a decision to move everything server side to avoid cheating. So, and this goes out to all of you people that hate whisper "nice hacks" every time someone kills you no one is cheating. They are just better than you at the game.

TechMaybeHic · April 2022

I like how this thread is about worst case scenario and it's about classes healing themselves, using class abilities, and even cheating; yet nobody really mentioning the Darcy convergence covering lare swaths if land and the massive desync it helps cause and performance seems to get worse and worse. I guess if you can't kill with caltrops and time stop spam via larger numbers, then that's the real issue