Rowjoh wrote: »

The point here is that it's not right that 2 players or an individual can intentionally take on a very large number of opponents and out sustain, out heal, out run, yet still kill at will.

Of course there is an element of skill to it, and kudos to players who have figured out the right gear/rotation etc to take advantage, and I can see that it's probably a lot of fun. The problem isnt the players, its the totally skewed balance that facilitates it.

Just to be clear:

The 25+ players who couldn't lay a glove on 2 enemy players were a mix of skill levels and abilities.

There were quite a few Negates, Time Stops, and a whole host of other stuns and snares going off - I'm an experienced Stamina NB and fired everything at them, including a couple of juicy Dawnbreakers, in combination with everyone else without much effect at all, then narrowly avoided being burst down myself.

They were able to double back and kill a player or two at will - they were not those ridiculous tanks who just stand there for 10 mins before eventually dying, which is another serious balance flaw by the way !

It's pretty obvious that this really isn't the PVP experience ZoS intended.

The 25+ players are definitely not as skilled as the 2 players. If they were, this wouldn't be a thread.
Doesn't matter if you are an experienced player. You aren't going to kill someone who is slightly to significantly better than you, when there are 2 of them with optimized builds and they are cross healing.
If your group did a rush of agony + streak + immobilizes and snares in a negate with a necro smash, a meteor or 2, a destro ult or 2, and several dawnbreakers all at the EXACT same time, you will kill 2 players like this.
You guys did not. There are no 2 players and build combinations that can survive that unless they are build purely into tank, which you have stated they were not.
These players rely on being fast, high healing, high sustain, good damage mitigation but still with enough burst that together they can kill someone who doesn't keep buffs + heals up, quickly at an opportune moment.

maxjapank wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

The point here is that it's not right that 2 players or an individual can intentionally take on a very large number of opponents and out sustain, out heal, out run, yet still kill at will.

Of course there is an element of skill to it, and kudos to players who have figured out the right gear/rotation etc to take advantage, and I can see that it's probably a lot of fun. The problem isnt the players, its the totally skewed balance that facilitates it.

Just to be clear:

The 25+ players who couldn't lay a glove on 2 enemy players were a mix of skill levels and abilities.

There were quite a few Negates, Time Stops, and a whole host of other stuns and snares going off - I'm an experienced Stamina NB and fired everything at them, including a couple of juicy Dawnbreakers, in combination with everyone else without much effect at all, then narrowly avoided being burst down myself.

They were able to double back and kill a player or two at will - they were not those ridiculous tanks who just stand there for 10 mins before eventually dying, which is another serious balance flaw by the way !

It's pretty obvious that this really isn't the PVP experience ZoS intended.

The 25+ players are definitely not as skilled as the 2 players. If they were, this wouldn't be a thread.
Doesn't matter if you are an experienced player. You aren't going to kill someone who is slightly to significantly better than you, when there are 2 of them with optimized builds and they are cross healing.
If your group did a rush of agony + streak + immobilizes and snares in a negate with a necro smash, a meteor or 2, a destro ult or 2, and several dawnbreakers all at the EXACT same time, you will kill 2 players like this.
You guys did not. There are no 2 players and build combinations that can survive that unless they are build purely into tank, which you have stated they were not.
These players rely on being fast, high healing, high sustain, good damage mitigation but still with enough burst that together they can kill someone who doesn't keep buffs + heals up, quickly at an opportune moment.

A long time ago, when SypherPK was playing, there was a clip of him killing 20+ using basically caltrops. It was fun for a while, but even he stopped and just laughed on his stream. Not because he was killing so many, but because it was soo stupid to be able to kill so many as one player. He encouraged the Devs to do something.

For 2 players to be unkillable, and yet be able to instantly kill tells me that either something is broken or the Devs need to take a serious look at what's causing such an imbalance.

The devs made the game significantly worse and unfun when attempting to raise the floor and lower the ceiling.
There is no reason to hand out free candies to players who aren't able to win such a fight.

Players who aren't able to win a 25v2 should never be taken into consideration when it comes to balance because they frankly don't care about their performance enough to put in minimum effort to be able to do something as trivial as zerging two players with 25 players.

maxjapank wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

The point here is that it's not right that 2 players or an individual can intentionally take on a very large number of opponents and out sustain, out heal, out run, yet still kill at will.

Of course there is an element of skill to it, and kudos to players who have figured out the right gear/rotation etc to take advantage, and I can see that it's probably a lot of fun. The problem isnt the players, its the totally skewed balance that facilitates it.

Just to be clear:

The 25+ players who couldn't lay a glove on 2 enemy players were a mix of skill levels and abilities.

There were quite a few Negates, Time Stops, and a whole host of other stuns and snares going off - I'm an experienced Stamina NB and fired everything at them, including a couple of juicy Dawnbreakers, in combination with everyone else without much effect at all, then narrowly avoided being burst down myself.

They were able to double back and kill a player or two at will - they were not those ridiculous tanks who just stand there for 10 mins before eventually dying, which is another serious balance flaw by the way !

It's pretty obvious that this really isn't the PVP experience ZoS intended.

The 25+ players are definitely not as skilled as the 2 players. If they were, this wouldn't be a thread.
Doesn't matter if you are an experienced player. You aren't going to kill someone who is slightly to significantly better than you, when there are 2 of them with optimized builds and they are cross healing.
If your group did a rush of agony + streak + immobilizes and snares in a negate with a necro smash, a meteor or 2, a destro ult or 2, and several dawnbreakers all at the EXACT same time, you will kill 2 players like this.
You guys did not. There are no 2 players and build combinations that can survive that unless they are build purely into tank, which you have stated they were not.
These players rely on being fast, high healing, high sustain, good damage mitigation but still with enough burst that together they can kill someone who doesn't keep buffs + heals up, quickly at an opportune moment.

A long time ago, when SypherPK was playing, there was a clip of him killing 20+ using basically caltrops. It was fun for a while, but even he stopped and just laughed on his stream. Not because he was killing so many, but because it was soo stupid to be able to kill so many as one player. He encouraged the Devs to do something.

For 2 players to be unkillable, and yet be able to instantly kill tells me that either something is broken or the Devs need to take a serious look at what's causing such an imbalance.

The devs made the game significantly worse and unfun when attempting to raise the floor and lower the ceiling.
There is no reason to hand out free candies to players who aren't able to win such a fight.

Players who aren't able to win a 25v2 should never be taken into consideration when it comes to balance because they frankly don't care about their performance enough to put in minimum effort to be able to do something as trivial as zerging two players with 25 players.

According to the op, these were a mixture of players, some quite skilled. But you just keep up that attitude, and we will continue to lose players to an already dying pvp population. Then you can complain about not having anyone to fight against.

The "quite skilled" players in the group are clearly not as skilled as the 2 players are. This is evident due to the outcome.
I sometimes play in cp ic with some extremely skilled players on pc na. Even when we come across 2 players like those mentioned in this thread, we kill them when we are numbered 4 to 8, as our numbers are greater but individual skill and build are likely equal. We often wipe (not just 1 or 2 at a time) groups like the 25 mentioned here, with 4-8. Rush of agony negate necro smash harmony bomb dark convergence plaguebreak with dawnbreakers is not survivable.

Edit - to be clear, skillwise, I'm like a 7-8/10 player compared to several 9-10/10 players I play with.

If you cant kill 2 players with 25, its a skill gap. You will be surprised how much you improve when you stop running in a zerg.

Nothing wrong with zerging if thats what you want to do btw.

Advice: you can just ignore them and continue to push the map, as thats usually the goal for zergs.

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

I’m guessing they were dk, temp, or warden, and they were endlessly running around corners, wall hugging, and using crates or whatever in the terrain to duck off before running a loop around everyone again. Most I’ve seen is 2v10 and it took about 10 minutes of these shenanigans before we got them. If they were in an open field, would be over in less than a minute. As much as I agree with the problems pvp is having right now, these scenarios are more to do with player skill at positioning and evasion. It’s annoying [snip], but I don’t think it’s necessarily the games imbalance that allows for this. Ball groups tho…

LoS should not be underestimated. Following that is how well those 2 players use LoS to buy time in between ccs and beatings. I'm getting that the OP said they ran around the gate - using the stairs etc. The 25 sometimes trip over each other in small spaces like the 2nd/3rd floor of gates. As mentioned in Spongebob's quote - open field they cannot sustain vs 25.

Adding to the LoS tactic is the extra speed we all have with celerity and other methods like RaT. The faster you get behind the wall, the fewer hits you take and you end up directing your exhausted pursuers tunnel vision into a bottleneck for the balorgh/ulti dump. Rinse, repeat. How many of these difficult to kill people are ever slow? (Obviously excluding the perma-block tank types) A speed nerf would feel bad, but it makes me wonder...

[edited to remove quote]

gariondavey wrote: »

Perhaps the entire analogy went over your head?
2 black belts aka very experienced players
Armed with sticks aka finely tuned builds
Against random people in weighted shoes aka bad players with unoptimized builds that are making their poor performance even worse

I understood your analogy, I just didn't think it was an accurate representation.. Things like sets, healing, etc should be supplementary to your stats, or mere forms of mitigation. They shouldn't be outright as powerful, if not more so, than your own skills. I get that buildcrafting is a skill, but if the only way to fight against those sticks is to have sticks themselves because everything else shatters against them, is that really true balance? And we all know there are things in this game that are overperforming.

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

How is that fair?
Despite them being better players, better builds & co-ordianted, a light-attack only Andy's should beat them!

I wonder how many times the group of 25 used Negate and stunned them inside it?
Probably zero, but they will cry there's no counter play.

How many did the 2 kill? Were they just tanks, or were you actually getting beat?

Either way no one could withstand 2v25 if the 25 and good players, no one.

Negate, a skill that's difficult to implement outside of co-ordinated groups. That's the only counter players have to these builds? Without co-ordinating Negate with ultis and roots/snares, players can simply break free, roll dodge out, self heal, continue. That's even if you can cast it in time because these players practically have 100% up time on RaT, and performance loves to keep us on our toes. Plus how many people are actually playing sorcs these days? I understand that tower runners require very niche builds, but I think they highlight some of the frustrations that players have with the game.

There are too many options for damage mitigation that are easily accessible, require no sacrifice, and have very few viable counters. It's not a healthy meta when skilled players are complaining that they can barely put a dent into another's health bar because even their damage is completely mitigated by overperforming mechanics. Basically telling new players that the only viable way they'll actually be able kill other players is to run in co-ordinated groups (because even the idea of 25+ of them winning against 1-2 skilled players is absurd to some) is not enticing and is a good way to prevent population growth, nor should it be the only means in finding success. Do we really want peak skill to be this mentality of "I can kill unskilled/new players, but against anyone else I can barely put a notch into their health bar after 20 mins"?

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

Maybe you should improve on your gameplay and then you might have a chance

Are you sure you really want to send that message? "Be uber 1337 or don't come to PvP"? You will get a mighty small number of players left you know...

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons

Tbh. the "Meta" is the endless cycle. We had high damage meta with one-shot ganking (even with bow at some point). We had high healing meta, we had tank meta... then again high damage meta etc.

The point is - it is all connected.

Right now we have a "Proc-set" meta. Some sets are too powerful too not to use them (DC, PB, Caluurion). People are making tanky builds in response to ridiculous damage output proc set can do. Armour value itself is not enough. You need high HP pool to not get bursted down and over the top self heal to get out of execute range fast. And like I have said - tanky builds exists because damage is also very high right now. So players have adapted to high damage. And the reason for that is quite simple - you can not have fun when you are dead.

Also - one important point. "Unkillable" means that player who decides to use such build - will not be able to kill anything, as they dont have any damage potential at all.

Sure they can.

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

The game allows you to have very high dmg (especially burst) while having high mitigation and healing if you choose to build that way. Add on top of that the ridiculously OP buff sets available now and you get the situation described. Blame poor game design, not the players. There's also nothing stopping you running similar builds, as long as you have enough PVP experience to make the most of them. It's also perfectly OK to have a zergsweeping/bombing build that can't deal with good players, just avoid the sweaties and go hunt down the zerg.

I got hit last night by two surprise attacks and died. I had 31K resistance (was not debuffed), major protection, minor protection, and was blocking. The NB was right in front of me and not in stealth. Two hits each over 15K in damage were on my death recap. Said player was taken out by 5 players with one focused on group heals. My friend who was with me was like [snip] and saw the same thing.

Go back to my prior post about players using exploits and cheating. It is happening and making PVP very unenjoyable.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

But why fight the top 2% when you could be curbstomping the other 98%. Nobody is forcing you into this 25v2. It's not like they are going to flip your inner keeps if you ignore them.

I might have to borrow this fantastic line the next time someone says, "But why don't ball groups fight other ball groups?"

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

The game allows you to have very high dmg (especially burst) while having high mitigation and healing if you choose to build that way. Add on top of that the ridiculously OP buff sets available now and you get the situation described. Blame poor game design, not the players. There's also nothing stopping you running similar builds, as long as you have enough PVP experience to make the most of them. It's also perfectly OK to have a zergsweeping/bombing build that can't deal with good players, just avoid the sweaties and go hunt down the zerg.

I got hit last night by two surprise attacks and died. I had 31K resistance (was not debuffed), major protection, minor protection, and was blocking. The NB was right in front of me and not in stealth. Two hits each over 15K in damage were on my death recap. Said player was taken out by 5 players with one focused on group heals. My friend who was with me was like [snip] and saw the same thing.

Go back to my prior post about players using exploits and cheating. It is happening and making PVP very unenjoyable.

could have been the emperor? when i‘m emp in no co no proc, i have around 28k penetration with all buffs and if you don‘t block (because i think you can‘t block and still get 2 15k hits), then i can do 15k to 15k easily… do you play ravenwatch EU? then it was me ;-) tho i‘m sure i didn‘t die to 5 guys xD.

emp in proc would be hitting even harder and with balorgh i could even hit caluurion and dawnbreaker without emp at 15k i‘d say.

[edited to remove quote]

Minalan wrote: »

There’s no cheating, it’s bad game design. There are sets and skills you can stack to get ridiculous burst. Given how bad healing and defenses are, you kind of have to.

ZOS, your game is dying. I hope you can take five minutes to worry more about busted sets and broken builds than the flaming here.

That player was cheating. They stood pat without blocking while taking on a beating from 4 other players along with being able to kill my friend and I both died from 2 hits each. As I pointed out I had 31K resistance, was blocking and had two damage mitigation up and two HoT as well. Two hits and both of us were down and dead. My friend was on his NB and hit this other player from out of stealth with his ultimate and had a 500 at the time with balorgh etc and his big hit was for maybe 2K and normally when he does that it hits for almost 7K on a player with around 25K resistance.

On consoles there are exploits that players are abusing and it causing an unfair advantage in PVP and usually you can tell when they are being used.