Overland Content Feedback Thread

newtinmpls · January 2022

Kesstryl wrote: »

You said overland was weak after you built with a dungeon build and the skills to go with it. That's the thing though, that kind of build will inherently make overland weaker. Many casuals and new players don't have a dungeon build.

Bold added by me, and thanks for the reminder...I was so caught up in "it took me so long to learn skills, I completely spaced that the beginner overland-er/explorer does not have sets.

I can recall early in trying to build a healer, when I had "some" Sanctuary pieces across several levels.

tonyblack · January 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I still don't see a response to how long this "hard content" would keep people happy.

I am fairly certain that the current content keeps those who like it quite satisfied, even across many alts. I know I have done many quest lines literally dozens of times. Is that likely for "hard" versions of that content?

If not, how would such effort be really valuable in the long run? Would not the same ones wanting it get bored and move onto something else? After all, they don't see the Harrowstorms and such as things to keep repeating, so they do get bored with "hard" content of at least some types.

For starters it will keep us happy in general because major part of new content would be targeted not exclusively to new players. So instead of being frustrated why so much hype goes to chapters filled with trivial questing we could be exited about it too. As of now unless there would be new game changing feature (new class, new skill line) I don’t see myself seriously interested in High isle or spending 40$ just for some roleplay stuff like new companion and pack of cosmetics I wouldn’t use. It’s about extending range of potential customers if nothing else.

If you worry about how long it would make us busy, it depends what kind of rework we are talking about and what it would include. If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards. If you want just genuine exiting experience for both new and veteran players then just separate modes, though some extra flavor needed anyway to differentiate the experience and compensate for time spent.

I run solo vet arenas more times I could count, because it was both fun and worth my time. But eventually I got bored with them like with anything else.

Tornaad · January 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I still don't see a response to how long this "hard content" would keep people happy.

I am fairly certain that the current content keeps those who like it quite satisfied, even across many alts. I know I have done many quest lines literally dozens of times. Is that likely for "hard" versions of that content?

If not, how would such effort be really valuable in the long run? Would not the same ones wanting it get bored and move onto something else? After all, they don't see the Harrowstorms and such as things to keep repeating, so they do get bored with "hard" content of at least some types.

You bring up a valid point @FlopsyPrince the idea of how long people will be happy with it is a valid question to ask. Additionally if you apply the Pareto Principle to the distribution of player skill then it is likely that 80% of the player base is casual while only 20% of the player base is going to be highly skilled and aggressive. And technically, within that 20% of highly skilled players, you can likely subdivide them into another set of 80% and 20% groups. And in reality, you can continue to subdivide those smaller groups into smaller and smaller groups of 80% and 20%.

Additionally, if you apply the Pareto Principle to the idea of player feedback, then you can safely assume that 80% of the feedback you get will only come from 20% of the player base, which means that you will likely always have people complaining about something and that means that you could easily have a situation where you create something to satisfy a group of people only to find that later on, that same group wants more. Which then creates a problem when you have that 20% or maybe just 5% making tons of noise and giving people a bad experience. Which in some ways is where we are at now. For example this tread that is currently 63 pages long and counting.

Now, because we are likely talking about 20% of the player base who would want something like harder overland content, it means that no it is not likely a majority, but 1 in 5 is a significant number of players. That would mean that if ESO has 19 million players then there is about 3.8 million players who are highly skilled and would love to have harder difficulty. However, that number is deceptive and likely does not tell the whole story.

I started out as a terrible player. On my first character, I could not even kill a boss that was part of the original main quest. Now I can solo Veteran hard mode on Fungal Grotto. And I am taking steps to truly get into the game and become "Good." Part of the MMO business model revolves around keeping players over a long period of time. And for the likely 20% of dedicated casual players who never want to become competitive, just putting out new content will satisfy them. However for the rest of the 80% that are not going to be dedicated casual players, then having something to bring extra challenge can in itself create a reward.

So, just from applying a near universal principle that would suggest that you wear 20% of your clothes 80% of the time, and that in the English language we use 20% of the words 80% of the time a fact that you can use to learn new languages easier we can see that it is likely that upwards of 80% of the player base would benefit at some point from some application of harder overland content.

However, that too is a little deceptive as take people like myself, In some ways I am a dedicated casual player. I will likely never check a single leaderboard ... ever. And just like some in this conversation, I too sometimes like the idea of just doing some relaxing quests. So, we obviously do not want to remove the current difficulty which is why I suggested an instance-based difficulty setting.

SilverBride · January 2022

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

Besides the fact that it would be completely unfair to players who may also want better rewards but will never be powerful enough for a veteran overland.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

spartaxoxo · January 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

Besides the fact that it would be completely unfair to players who may also want better rewards but will never be powerful enough for a veteran overland.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

I think it depends on what the rewards are. Something like increased gold gain is completely fair, as they actually would lose gold gain if that wasn't changed. Same with like blue gear instead of green. Something like achievements for a non-repeatable quest that has two versions (normal and vet) would be a no go though, as I don't think it would be reasonable if it's not repeatable to place exclusive rewards on it.

Lysette · January 2022

In my mind, instead to do that, ZOS could make a lot more money, if they offered private instances for normal overland content, because here are a lot of single player enthusiast, who would be so happy, if they could just get rid of the other players in a private instance - to me it would definitely be worth 100 dollars a year to get rid of all the others in my game.

And especially of those, who think that role play elements in a role playing game are just ballast - I don't want to play with them at all. And what a benefit it would be to actually do a quest on my very own, uninterrupted from those rushing through it and killing all the enemies, I should have to encounter, and can't because they killed them - questing could be actually fun in a private instance. And I would not have to see these terrible glowing or alpha-ed out mounts anymore, no more noisy effects of people mounting and dismounting all the time, no more duels in hubs - what a relieve this would be, finally being able to play in an environment, which looks like Elder Scrolls and is free from fancy mounts and people who do not behave anything like citizens of Tamriel - in a private instance it would finally be a real Elder Scrolls game again - a perfect single player game - whilst still having access to the common market via the NPC guild traders.

What I want to say with it - addressing ZOS here - you can give them their veteran overland - if it is separate from us casuals or if you offer us private instances, that we can escape from them and keep enjoying the game - we are the 80%, we should not have to deal with the chaos those other 20% would cause if they are in the same environment with us - either give them or us a way to escape from each other.

It is time for ESO PREMIUM - the single player experience in an exclusive private instance - for 100 dollars a year - please, give us that. It would not include the pvp areas of course - just the normal and DLC zones, which are non-pvp, and it would as well not include multi-player dungeons and the like - not that I'm going to do any of them at all - I just want to have the Elder Scrolls it could be - and other players are just ruining this experience, especially those, who have no intention to play it as a role playing game, but rather as a combat game like souls.

SilverBride · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

Besides the fact that it would be completely unfair to players who may also want better rewards but will never be powerful enough for a veteran overland.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

I think it depends on what the rewards are. Something like increased gold gain is completely fair, as they actually would lose gold gain if that wasn't changed. Same with like blue gear instead of green. Something like achievements for a non-repeatable quest that has two versions (normal and vet) would be a no go though, as I don't think it would be reasonable if it's not repeatable to place exclusive rewards on it.

I'm not understanding how they would lose gold gain if they get the same amount of gold for quests and from drops as they would from normal overland.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

Besides the fact that it would be completely unfair to players who may also want better rewards but will never be powerful enough for a veteran overland.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

I think it depends on what the rewards are. Something like increased gold gain is completely fair, as they actually would lose gold gain if that wasn't changed. Same with like blue gear instead of green. Something like achievements for a non-repeatable quest that has two versions (normal and vet) would be a no go though, as I don't think it would be reasonable if it's not repeatable to place exclusive rewards on it.

I'm not understanding how they would lose gold gain if they get the same amount of gold for quests and from drops as they would from normal overland.

Let's make a pretend world where each mob drops the same amount of coin each time just to make it easier to illustrate.

Let's say a normal player can kill 4 mobs in about 2 seconds. And each mob gave them 100 coins each. So they earned 400 coins.

Now let's look at our vet player. The mobs they fight die slower, so they can kill two mobs in that same 2 seconds for 100 coins each. So they earned 200 coins.

So they lost coins by going to vet. A gold gain increase of 2x would make them even with the normal player as 2*200=400 coins in 2 seconds.

I don't know what the actual values would need to be, but you'd want something so they can at least be even with normal players.

SilverBride · January 2022

Lysette wrote: »

In my mind, instead to do that, ZOS could make a lot more money, if they offered private instances for normal overland content, because here are a lot of single player enthusiast, who would be so happy, if they could just get rid of the other players in a private instance - to me it would definitely be worth 100 dollars a year to get rid of all the others in my game.

ZoS would lose money from all the players who don't want ESO to become a single player game. I know I wouldn't want to play a multiplayer game that is a ghost town because everyone is off in their own private instances. This would be the ultimate splitting of the playerbase.

I really don't understand why running into other players is such a bad thing anyway. I've had very few negative encounters and enjoy the social interactions.

RedBranch · January 2022

I’d like to see more content added to existing zones and reasons to go back. Console player here…. Would like a marker on my map showing active dailies for each zone. More and more stories!

SilverBride · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not understanding how they would lose gold gain if they get the same amount of gold for quests and from drops as they would from normal overland.

Let's make a pretend world where each mob drops the same amount of coin each time just to make it easier to illustrate.

Let's say a normal player can kill 4 mobs in about 2 seconds. And each mob gave them 100 coins each. So they earned 400 coins.

Now let's look at our vet player. The mobs they fight die slower, so they can kill two mobs in that same 2 seconds for 100 coins each. So they earned 200 coins.

So they lost coins by going to vet. A gold gain increase of 2x would make them even with the normal player as 2*200=400 coins in 2 seconds.

I don't know what the actual values would need to be, but you'd want something so they can at least be even with normal players.

Ok I get what you are saying now.

Lysette · January 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

In my mind, instead to do that, ZOS could make a lot more money, if they offered private instances for normal overland content, because here are a lot of single player enthusiast, who would be so happy, if they could just get rid of the other players in a private instance - to me it would definitely be worth 100 dollars a year to get rid of all the others in my game.

ZoS would lose money from all the players who don't want ESO to become a single player game. I know I wouldn't want to play a multiplayer game that is a ghost town because everyone is off in their own private instances. This would be the ultimate splitting of the playerbase.

I really don't understand why running into other players is such a bad thing anyway. I've had very few negative encounters and enjoy the social interactions.

I want to play a role play game - these guys are not role players, they are here for the combat only - and think that role play stuff is just unnecessary fluff - I don't want to have anything to do with them. Best if they are in their own instance or I in mine. They want all for free, I offer money if I can get a private instance - and I bet a lot would offer money, to get rid of these kind of players.

Well, if the first you said would happen, ZOS would be quite happy, because they would get a ton of extra money for private instances and wouldn't have to deal with requests for free content anymore. A typical single player does not interact with others anyway, so that is not a loss at all for the rest of players - we are not interested in interaction with others - we even got companions now. Why do you think we got companions?- Because we do not want having to interact with other players - an NPC companion is fine, he will not stress us out or force us to do things we don't want to do or complain about our lack of high dps - he is just around helping and got a personality for us to discover and role play with him/her.

tonyblack · January 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I still don't see a response to how long this "hard content" would keep people happy.

I am fairly certain that the current content keeps those who like it quite satisfied, even across many alts. I know I have done many quest lines literally dozens of times. Is that likely for "hard" versions of that content?

If not, how would such effort be really valuable in the long run? Would not the same ones wanting it get bored and move onto something else? After all, they don't see the Harrowstorms and such as things to keep repeating, so they do get bored with "hard" content of at least some types.

If the new chapters are deeply immersed and take at least a couple of weeks, that will be great. Now each chapters and q4 dlc are completed in 3-4 evenings. But I believe that the overland should contain more than just three dozen quests. I love the Craglorn concept where there are some large delves with repeatable quests. Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

Lysette · January 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

A possible solution for your problem would be to make a new character, when a new zone comes out and let him play as if he would be your first character - not using any help from the others of your characters - not using money, he possibly wouldn't have, not using knowledge, he possibly can't have - you know, role playing - what the character doesn't have or can't know is not used by you while playing him or her. And no, he is not using one of your mounts, until he is able to afford one by own means. This is role playing. He will craft his own gear after his abilities and cook his own food after his abilities - if you give him everything you already have, he will just overpower himself again and it will be the same bad experience again - do really role play this character, it is your new chance to enjoy the content instead to just consume it.

ShalidorsHeir · January 2022

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Lysette · January 2022

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

[edited to remove quote]

ShalidorsHeir · January 2022

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

Absolutey wrong. [snip] I tried overland a lot in the recent years. Once i loved that. no matter if i am a progressive player in PvE and PvP otherwise. I just started it felt nothing anymore in there and left it again. It is not me being unable to see how this game's overland does not appeal to huge part of the community anymore. Its you having serious issues accepting other people's opinions ... What is so wrong about making this game a way more appealing to everyong than just you?? You literally dont want us to have fun -- for what by the 8? You can stay there happy as always in your normal content. Just give the us something that we feel right about as well which does not affect your experience. We are no Grinding monsters or monster slayers 101... What the hell do you even think what we are? As you already mentioned we all different experiences from the TES single player games. And we would not have stayed there if we could just get everything with just a finger snapping. And by leading your inaccurate argument about ""its not them, its you"" --> why do you have issues making overland more difficult then??? Because you can not enjoy it. period. Thats just so wrong in all ways you could possibly think of.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Lysette · January 2022

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

Absolutey wrong. [snip] I tried overland a lot in the recent years. Once i loved that. no matter if i am a progressive player in PvE and PvP otherwise. I just started it felt nothing anymore in there and left it again. It is not me being unable to see how this game's overland does not appeal to huge part of the community anymore. Its you having serious issues accepting other people's opinions ... What is so wrong about making this game a way more appealing to everyong than just you?? You literally dont want us to have fun -- for what by the 8? You can stay there happy as always in your normal content. Just give the us something that we feel right about as well which does not affect your experience. We are no Grinding monsters or monster slayers 101... What the hell do you even think what we are? As you already mentioned we all different experiences from the TES single player games. And we would not have stayed there if we could just get everything with just a finger snapping. And by leading your inaccurate argument about ""its not them, its you"" --> why do you have issues making overland more difficult then??? Because you can not enjoy it. period. Thats just so wrong in all ways you could possibly think of.

I tell you what I fear - if you will get your harder content and it is not separated from the normal overland, it is likely to be flooded by lunatics who will ruin my game experience, killing all and everything because now they have a new large combat zone - I do not believe for a minute, that you would be in that harder overland for the quests, you are there for the combat - and if that is not separated from normal overland, then ESO will not be fun for me - that is why I suggested to offer a private instance - I would gladly pay for it, if I don't have to see you guys and have no interaction at all with you guys - the good thing now is that you don't like overland, because then you are staying clear of it - but this would change, if it goes your way.

[edited to remove quote]

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

@Lysette

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

No. When I do quests, I usually play no more than 2-3 hours. I also always do this with my boyfriend and he often has no time anymore. At the same time, I do not miss dialogues, I read notes and lore books. All the same, I'm a big fan of the TES series and I play this one largely because of the lore.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course.

It's not about difficulties at all. It's a completely different game experience where story, exploration, and combat create a cohesive experience. Overland ECO is such a simple POI completer, after which the location becomes empty and useless.

What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I'm talking about this. But not all players are newbies, many newbies grow further. But many leave, finding the game too trivial from the first days. One friend of mine, also a big fan of TES and Skyrim in particular, compared eso to NMS. He said that he was expecting adventure and got a boring walk from the beginning of the location to the end, where the only gameplay is dialogues.

A possible solution for your problem would be to make a new character, when a new zone comes out and let him play as if he would be your first character - not using any help from the others of your characters - not using money, he possibly wouldn't have, not using knowledge, he possibly can't have - you know, role playing - what the character doesn't have or can't know is not used by you while playing him or her. And no, he is not using one of your mounts, until he is able to afford one by own means. This is role playing. He will craft his own gear after his abilities and cook his own food after his abilities - if you give him everything you already have, he will just overpower himself again and it will be the same bad experience again - do really role play this character, it is your new chance to enjoy the content instead to just consume it.

It actually sounds like "You are not playing correctly. Try playing differently." I play exactly as this game offers me. I have been playing since 2015 and even then, having completed
the first two locations, I began to feel that something was wrong with this game. Where is the content? Why is this so trivial? Is there any gameplay other than running from marker to marker? Of course there are, dungeons and trials saved this game for me. But every time I complete a chapter or dlc I feel sad that I will no longer return to these locations, that they are no longer needed, that my experience in these locations was too meager.

Parasaurolophus · January 2022

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

One of the biggest problems with these threads is that some players categorize other players too much. Players are usually divided into RP, pve or pvp, casual and hardplay. This is totally wrong. In many ways, players want the entire experience this game has to offer.
This is when they say that pvpers are not profitable. This is not true. Why are pvpers not profitable? Because there is no new pvp content? My point is that new content is not for sale. It is needed so that players stay in the game longer and spend money. That is why outfits and mounts in the game are more expensive than dlc.
But something took me far from the topic. I just wanted to show that it's not right to categorize players. Especially large masses of players. There are actually not so many people who exclusively do quests or pvp. Usually the people I meet play both pvp and pvp, they have their own furnished house, they buy things from the crownstore. And despite the fact that I can close high-end pwe content, I am a big fan of the TES series, I love this world, its atmosphere, lore and setting. I also want to enjoy stories and landscapes.

[edited to remove quote]

Lysette · January 2022

.Funny that you mention NMS - that is one of the games I really enjoy playing. It is an exploration game basically, if he wants to have adventures there, well, he could mess with the sentinels, but that is not what this game is about at all. Same thing there, he is not playing it as intended resp. is expecting something what the game is not made for.

ShalidorsHeir · January 2022

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

Absolutey wrong. [snip] I tried overland a lot in the recent years. Once i loved that. no matter if i am a progressive player in PvE and PvP otherwise. I just started it felt nothing anymore in there and left it again. It is not me being unable to see how this game's overland does not appeal to huge part of the community anymore. Its you having serious issues accepting other people's opinions ... What is so wrong about making this game a way more appealing to everyong than just you?? You literally dont want us to have fun -- for what by the 8? You can stay there happy as always in your normal content. Just give the us something that we feel right about as well which does not affect your experience. We are no Grinding monsters or monster slayers 101... What the hell do you even think what we are? As you already mentioned we all different experiences from the TES single player games. And we would not have stayed there if we could just get everything with just a finger snapping. And by leading your inaccurate argument about ""its not them, its you"" --> why do you have issues making overland more difficult then??? Because you can not enjoy it. period. Thats just so wrong in all ways you could possibly think of.

I tell you what I fear - if you will get your harder content and it is not separated from the normal overland, it is likely to be flooded by lunatics who will ruin my game experience, killing all and everything because now they have a new large combat zone - I do not believe for a minute, that you would be in that harder overland for the quests, you are there for the combat - and if that is not separated from normal overland, then ESO will not be fun for me - that is why I suggested to offer a private instance - I would gladly pay for it, if I don't have to see you guys and have no interaction at all with you guys - the good thing now is that you don't like overland, because then you are staying clear of it - but this would change, if it goes your way.

[snip] We all recommented harder overland for the sake of immersion, not only combat, AND as an optional content. We also asked for deeper dialogs and more variety, even environmental effects in overland. [snip]
Again: we are here to discuss the topic - all opinions have their right and yes, i can understand your fear but nobody wants that you can not have fun anymore...

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Lysette · January 2022

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

Absolutey wrong. [snip] I tried overland a lot in the recent years. Once i loved that. no matter if i am a progressive player in PvE and PvP otherwise. I just started it felt nothing anymore in there and left it again. It is not me being unable to see how this game's overland does not appeal to huge part of the community anymore. Its you having serious issues accepting other people's opinions ... What is so wrong about making this game a way more appealing to everyong than just you?? You literally dont want us to have fun -- for what by the 8? You can stay there happy as always in your normal content. Just give the us something that we feel right about as well which does not affect your experience. We are no Grinding monsters or monster slayers 101... What the hell do you even think what we are? As you already mentioned we all different experiences from the TES single player games. And we would not have stayed there if we could just get everything with just a finger snapping. And by leading your inaccurate argument about ""its not them, its you"" --> why do you have issues making overland more difficult then??? Because you can not enjoy it. period. Thats just so wrong in all ways you could possibly think of.

I tell you what I fear - if you will get your harder content and it is not separated from the normal overland, it is likely to be flooded by lunatics who will ruin my game experience, killing all and everything because now they have a new large combat zone - I do not believe for a minute, that you would be in that harder overland for the quests, you are there for the combat - and if that is not separated from normal overland, then ESO will not be fun for me - that is why I suggested to offer a private instance - I would gladly pay for it, if I don't have to see you guys and have no interaction at all with you guys - the good thing now is that you don't like overland, because then you are staying clear of it - but this would change, if it goes your way.

[snip] We all recommented harder overland for the sake of immersion, not only combat, AND as an optional content. We also asked for deeper dialogs and more variety, even environmental effects in overland. [snip]
Again: we are here to discuss the topic - all opinions have their right and yes, i can understand your fear but nobody wants that you can not have fun anymore...

Hm you are right, that is egoistic of me - it is born out of fear that you guys would ruin the game I love. It actually makes me so fearful, that I want to completely separate from you in an own private instance - that I can continue to have fun in this game.

Like questing at prime time - I like to do it in a sneaky stealthy way - carefully sneaking around, not been seen or recognized and just rarely having to fight - enjoying the dungeon - then a group of 4 comes in - kills all and everything and my fun is gone - bam, a group of 4 in a dungeon which is made for one player - and this is how I imagine you around - being at least like 4 or 5 players - bam, coming in, killing everything and my gameplay is ruined - I want a private instance that this will never happen again.

[edited to remove quote]

ShalidorsHeir · January 2022

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

...If you want to extend time spend there you have to add decent rewards.

...compensate for time spent.

If the reason for wanting more difficult overland is for the challenge, as has been stated repeatedly, then there is no need for increased rewards. The challenge is the goal and is its own reward.

tonyblack wrote: »

...eventually I got bored with them like with anything else

How would this be any different? And what then?

The question I was replying “how long vet content would keep us happy”.

If you go just for genuine fun of combat without anything special than the focus should just on that aspect. Why longevity should matter in this case at all? I might do it only once, but enjoy it and it’s still would be a huge improvement.

If you go for longevity than you need to add actually good incentives to replay it, not just some fluff that doesn’t matter.

I’m not particularly against any of those options. And arenas example was to show that no matter how good combat and rewards are, there is still a limit at what point it stops being fun and becomes a grind. And, personally, I do enjoy grinding to some extent and it prolong the time I play certain part of the game.

Many players dont even play it at all atm because it sucks Forget about longlivety or gain per hour - questing and exploratioan does not require these. You play it for fun as the the term "exploration"

Lysette wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now overland content is designed for those who play the game very, very little. It is empty and completed in a few evenings. The main thing is that overland is like a visual novel and not an RPG. And even more so, it is completely unlike the classic scrolls game. ZoS simply saves on development costs by creating an overland for new players and for those who come back to the game occasionally. But not for those who really play this game a lot, appreciate the immersion and gameplay.

You are binge-playing, if you can complete a Chapter zone in a few evenings. ZOS has to go for what an average player is doing and they basically have the data to decide what that is. If there is more content than an average player could possibly play with a normal time investment, then the average player would fall behind the story and after a while give a damn about new content, because he will never get there at his pace and with his time investment. ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment.

As for it would not be an RPG and unlike the classic TES games - it is very much like the classic TES games at "normal" difficulty - if you have played it with a different difficulty setting, then you have a different experience of course. What is different is that any new zone is designed so, that a newbie can do most of it's content - this is due to One Tamriel this way, a newbie should be able to do the content, regardless which zone he chooses to start in. That this works out at all, is really impressive, but it comes with the drawback, that a binge-player is likely to overpower himself and might not have a good experience anymore. Or if he is using add-ons, which by-pass exploration and lead directly to the goodies.

I know that I'm playing very slow paced - if some agency says, a game has easily 40 hours content, it lasts easily 800 hours for me, but I'm not rushing through a game, I take my time and try to do things not like a mass murderer, but in a more role compliant way, I don't have to kill everything and I don't want to kill everything, if I can get around in a different way, it is fine. It might take a little time to figure out, how I can sneak in and out, without to cause a mess, but that is the fun part for me. Playing it like a mass murderer is easier, but it is less fun to me - so I doubt that we all had the same experience with classic TES anyway - it has been different for anyone of us, as well because we might have played it with a bunch of different mods at very different difficulty levels. But if we just compare vanilla, ESO overland plays pretty much like TES in normal mode.

[snip] We want ZOS to address all players, no matter if 60% is more than 40% or whatever example you would lead. Nobody wants you to have to play more diffcult content that you dont want to. We want to participate there as well. [snip]

What I can see is that you are no role players in a role playing game - and you play it not like a role player and that is why you can't enjoy it - it is you yourself, who is making the experience bad, because you play a role playing game in the wrong way.

Absolutey wrong. [snip] I tried overland a lot in the recent years. Once i loved that. no matter if i am a progressive player in PvE and PvP otherwise. I just started it felt nothing anymore in there and left it again. It is not me being unable to see how this game's overland does not appeal to huge part of the community anymore. Its you having serious issues accepting other people's opinions ... What is so wrong about making this game a way more appealing to everyong than just you?? You literally dont want us to have fun -- for what by the 8? You can stay there happy as always in your normal content. Just give the us something that we feel right about as well which does not affect your experience. We are no Grinding monsters or monster slayers 101... What the hell do you even think what we are? As you already mentioned we all different experiences from the TES single player games. And we would not have stayed there if we could just get everything with just a finger snapping. And by leading your inaccurate argument about ""its not them, its you"" --> why do you have issues making overland more difficult then??? Because you can not enjoy it. period. Thats just so wrong in all ways you could possibly think of.

I tell you what I fear - if you will get your harder content and it is not separated from the normal overland, it is likely to be flooded by lunatics who will ruin my game experience, killing all and everything because now they have a new large combat zone - I do not believe for a minute, that you would be in that harder overland for the quests, you are there for the combat - and if that is not separated from normal overland, then ESO will not be fun for me - that is why I suggested to offer a private instance - I would gladly pay for it, if I don't have to see you guys and have no interaction at all with you guys - the good thing now is that you don't like overland, because then you are staying clear of it - but this would change, if it goes your way.

[snip] We all recommented harder overland for the sake of immersion, not only combat, AND as an optional content. We also asked for deeper dialogs and more variety, even environmental effects in overland. [snip]
Again: we are here to discuss the topic - all opinions have their right and yes, i can understand your fear but nobody wants that you can not have fun anymore...

Hm you are right, that is egoistic of me - it is born out of fear that you guys would ruin the game I love. It actually makes me so fearful, that I want to completely separate from you in an own private instance - that I can continue to have fun in this game.

As i already stated in my leading comment to this thread. This should address ALL players needs. It never has been about excluding players. That was basically the requirement for anything ZOS could come up with. It never should be a "change" that players simply have to take. It shall be an "extension" to the game. Making it optional was a requirement on from the beginning. And always it should be a grip to reach for more players without losing important parts of the community, such as you are as well.

[edited to remove quote]

Lysette · January 2022

Ok, I have basically said what is to be said from my side - best solution for me would be a private instance, that I can be on my own and do not have to deal with other players at all - I would pay for this on a regular basis, because it would make this game complete for me - but I want it in the normal overland version - not any harder than it is - enjoyable role play content. If Fallout 76 can offer this, it shouldn't be so hard to offer it here as well.

Sylvermynx · January 2022

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

As i already stated in my leading comment to this thread. This should address ALL players needs. It never has been about excluding players. That was basically the requirement for anything ZOS could come up with. It never should be a "change" that players simply have to take. It shall be an "extension" to the game. Making it optional was a requirement on from the beginning. And always it should be a grip to reach for more players without losing important parts of the community, such as you are as well.

Very even-handed. I'm okay with whatever, as long as it's all optional.

SilverBride · January 2022

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

We all recommented harder overland for the sake of immersion, not only combat, AND as an optional content.

How is it immersive to never be stronger than the base game mobs no matter how far a player has progressed their character?

Someone who has progressed to a high level, geared up in all the best sets and learned rotations and mechanics should be able to step into the base game and easily take down any mobs. The challenging overland content, such as World Bosses, Dragons and Harrowstorms are the exceptions, although some can also solo those.

A powerful and experienced player struggling with the base game is what breaks immersion because it is not believable.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

We also asked for deeper dialogs and more variety, even environmental effects in overland.

This is basically asking them to completely rewrite the base game.

NeeScrolls · January 2022

Everytime i try to get away from this perpetual thread...it pulls me BACK IN lol ...

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

One of the biggest problems with these threads is that some players categorize other players too much.

Totally agree , and....tbqh...it's also one of the biggest problems with RL these days.

Lysette wrote: »

Like questing at prime time - I like to do it in a sneaky stealthy way - carefully sneaking around, not been seen or recognized and just rarely having to fight - enjoying the dungeon - then a group of 4 comes in - kills all and everything and my fun is gone.

This ^ is the nature of MMO's....and also, the nature of living in a society of other humans.

Lysette wrote: »

ZOS cannot use a binge-player's time investment as rule of their development - they have to design it for an average player with an average time investment..

I respectfully disagree. The best developers, imho, design their game around what THEY themselves find fun & challenging. They should rarely (if ever) cater toward the lowest-common-denominator gamer. Make tweaks & such, sure np. But otherwise: Please yourself FIRST as a designer, then if you build it...well...players will hopefully come. And adapt.

tonyblack wrote: »

For starters it will keep us happy in general because major part of new content would be targeted not exclusively to new players. .

Gamers are NEVER happy, not even when they're happy. The modern gamer---heck the modern consumer---is, quite simply, insatiable. But that's a topic for another discussion.

SilverBride wrote: »

How is it immersive to never be stronger than the base game [trash]mobs no matter how far a player has progressed their character?

Which is why the 'group scaling' idea i proposed on page 61 just might be able to help. Of course, that idea was basically ignored in favor of more thread bickering (also probably cuz it's a bit unrealistic, code-wise) so instead my wacky brain has come up with ANOTHER IDEA (mind you, as i've stated a few times, i'm fine either way w/ overland...but anyways) :

One word: ELEMENTS!

Have i got your attention yet? No? Okay well....short version is: As a TOGGLE (aka player option) , players could choose how impactful the environmental elements are in each separate map zone. Examples...

Like on 'Western Skyrim' , before you finish 'The Silver Cormorant' quest (sorry *spoiler* ) , on the upper eastern part of map, the COLD elements actually envelope player ui screen (as if you are freezing) with frost graphics on the corners. Talk about immersive! And, iirc, in 'Wrothgar' , there is a quest whereby you have to climb a mountain full of SNOW and it's so cold for the player that you have to run/jump from fire-pit to fire-pit before dying.

Okay so, taking these examples ^ , what if those TYPES of elemental factors were toggle'able to also affect COMBAT diffiiculty?

So , no matter how powerful your CP level is, if you're fighting amidst an island surrounded by LAVA , you're gonna feel the *heat* and run out of stamina slightly faster than usual. Even if you're fighting "trash mobs" . --And fighting in snow/cold could make your magicka run out slightly faster. And fighting near swamp/water (walkable level) could make your health drop slightly faster during combat. Rain would = movement speed faster (aka slippery combat) . Nightime cycle would = less accuracy (less crits or procs) . And so on and so on, etc. etc.

Come on, i'm onto something here people! Let's gooooooooooooooo!!! /pep-talk Zenimax?

spartaxoxo · January 2022

NeeScrolls wrote: »

Okay so, taking these examples ^ , what if those TYPES of elemental factors were toggle'able to also affect COMBAT diffiiculty?

So , no matter how powerful your CP level is, if you're fighting amidst an island surrounded by LAVA , you're gonna feel the *heat* and run out of stamina slightly faster than usual. Even if you're fighting "trash mobs" . --And fighting in snow/cold could make your magicka run out slightly faster. And fighting near swamp/water (walkable level) could make your health drop slightly faster during combat. Rain would = movement speed faster (aka slippery combat) . Nightime cycle would = less accuracy (less crits or procs) . And so on and so on, etc. etc.

Come on, i'm onto something here people! Let's gooooooooooooooo!!! /pep-talk Zenimax?

It's giving me Elder Scrolls mod vibes and I'm here for it. 🙌