Deathmatch Battlegrounds Urgently Needed

validifyedneb18_ESO · May 2021

Really dont understand the hate for the other modes tbh

I rarely care if my team wins. Its a bonus but my enjoyment is far more dependant on my ability to kill other people and it doesnt matter if im defending, attacking or just deathmatching.

tomofhyrule · May 2021

I really like the other modes. Ok, CTR is painful since you can't turn in your own relic if yours is stolen so it tends to drag the whole time without a winner, but the two crazy modes are a lot of fun.

I will say that when I did it, I played the objective. I've never been big into PvP, but I do enjoy working with a team to do something, and MYM last year was my first time on BGs with comms. I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would.

But then again, I don't understand the 'deathmatch should be teams, and solo for objectives!' idea that people keep throwing out. I know when I play BGs on comms, there's a lot more strategizing about which flag to get and where to go next rather than DM since that's basically a free-for-all - sure you want the tank to collect people and the healer to heal, but that's obvious. If anything, I'd say the DM is more for a solo mode since it is such a free-for-all in the first place, and the objectives are the organized group ones so you can strategize about what to do next. But that's just how I've experienced them.

But with the inability to pick modes, it would be nice if the achievements were lowered or the style pages got better drop rates. I know when I used to play BGs, I always went for the flag games since I wanted to farm the Firedrake style. Now you can't easily farm any of the styles... and they're not treadeable. Same with the dyes - I'd love to get the Pit Daemon dye, but that's for capping 100 relics... and I don't get CTR that often (and it is a boring mode)

NordJitsu · May 2021

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don’t think there are enough people doing BGs that they can split the player base this much.

I’d prefer that they up the rewards for coming in first so there’s more incentive to play the objectives. Particularly gold gain for first place finishes.

Lots of the objective games are fun. I’m a fan of capture the relic and crazy king. Not a big fan of chaosball usually.

People who go into objective games and play like it’s death match are the problem. Don’t see why that should be accommodated.

Rather than split the queue, they can just make death match occur more frequently. It would make sense for it to be 33% of the time (based on leaderboard distribution), though I would prefer 50%.

See this I could get on board with. Even 50% death match would be great.

Another intermediate option would be to allow you to select a “preferred” play list (death match or objective) and just make the the priority for matchmaking, with your preferred game type getting less likely the longer you’re waiting in que.

Parasaurolophus · May 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

Seriously guys ... I'm just not an understand .... DM is probably the most flawed of any battle mode and I don't understand how you can ignore it. I will explain
1) Balance. If your team doesn't have a warden and a sorcerer, don't even try.
2) The strength of the teams becomes evident very quickly after the start. After a while, the match turns into a hunt for the weakest team.
3) Points for frags are awarded to the one who just made the last hit, and not to the one who actually destroyed 90% of the player's hp.

Yes deathmatch is flawed, arguably less than the other game modes because it still actually encourages pvp unlike many objective modes. It’s also the most popular.

No... I say that DM is the most unbalanced mode of all modes.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

BrownChicken wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

Seriously guys ... I'm just not an understand .... DM is probably the most flawed of any battle mode and I don't understand how you can ignore it. I will explain
1) Balance. If your team doesn't have a warden and a sorcerer, don't even try.
2) The strength of the teams becomes evident very quickly after the start. After a while, the match turns into a hunt for the weakest team.
3) Points for frags are awarded to the one who just made the last hit, and not to the one who actually destroyed 90% of the player's hp.

Yes deathmatch is flawed, arguably less than the other game modes because it still actually encourages pvp unlike many objective modes. It’s also the most popular.

No... I say that DM is the most unbalanced mode of all modes.

The solution to balance is not emphasizing game modes that reward avoiding combat.

But you are right, Deathmatch does reveal which builds are viable and which are not. But this is why I like it. I like creating effective PVP builds and having a reliable way to test them. Trying to test out a PVP build in a situation where I can just pick up a chaos ball and hide in the corner to win the game is not enjoyable for me.

So yes, if you're playing Deathmatch and you want to do well, you need a good PVP build. But there are dozens of builds that can do well in Deathmatch, each with dozens of slight variations. Making one of those builds, and honing it to your liking in a rich PVP combat scenario, is what I find most enjoyable.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

RedMuse wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Why is this the most popular mode? Where does this information / statistics come from?

Based on the number of "finally, a deathmatch" I've seen in the chat. And curses when people see relic. Or flags.

Ladislao wrote: »

I love Chaosball because it's way more dynamic and meaningful mode with even more intensive fights.

chaosball on the maps where you can find safe corners is just horrible. Having 3 teams also makes this mode much worse, as 1 team holds the ball and 2 other fight each other at the choke point before the ball. I bet chaosball would be very interesting in 3vs3 or 4vs4 scenario tho.

[Edit to remove bait]

divnyi wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Why is this the most popular mode? Where does this information / statistics come from?

Based on the number of "finally, a deathmatch" I've seen in the chat. And curses when people see relic. Or flags.

Ladislao wrote: »

I love Chaosball because it's way more dynamic and meaningful mode with even more intensive fights.

chaosball on the maps where you can find safe corners is just horrible. Having 3 teams also makes this mode much worse, as 1 team holds the ball and 2 other fight each other at the choke point before the ball. I bet chaosball would be very interesting in 3vs3 or 4vs4 scenario tho.

[Edit to remove bait]

So, anecdata then. Yeah, that's highly reliable as we all know.

When we were able to pick modes, deathmatch always had the highest leaderboard scores by far, showing that people were most frequently choosing death match, resulting in those higher scores on the leaderboards.

Back then, when you would choose random mode, it would very frequently be Deathmatch, probably more than 50% of the time despite only accounting for 20% of the modes, because it would pair you with the numerous people just selecting Deathmatch.

Also back then, the queue times for Deathmatch were much shorter than the queue times for any other particular mode, indicating that there were more people queuing for death match.

Lastly:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7249318

ManDraKE · May 2021

just remove domination, that mode is poorly designed and matches are always boring, people just running aroun avoiding fights and standing on flags. Chaosball and crazy king can be very fun is the teams are balanced, removing domination would indirectly translate to a lot more DMs

Splitting queues even more is bad, population on highMMR PC/NA is already almost non-existant, it takes up to 10mins to get a queue, and is usually the same 15 or so players every time. And during the day when the pop is lower, you get pulled into mid-tier MMR and destroy everyone lol (it can be fun as long as you are not in the receiving end)

sabresandiego_ESO · May 2021

I think the best solution is to allow at least one deathmatch only option. This is the most popular game type across almost all games that have pvp and across multiple genres from RPG to FPS.

People who enjoy objectives would greatly benefit because the games won’t be filled with players completely ignoring objectives and deathmatching anyways.

Strider__Roshin · May 2021

So I haven't really played this game actively since they added a cast time to "instant" Ults. That literally killed the game for me, but every once in a while I'd login to check out an update, and then quickly get turned off by the cast time and not login again for a few months lol.

Anyways when I got login to feel the waters I also did TDM because that's all I'm interested in. No joke, when they got rid of that queue that stopped me from logging in period. I don't even know what the new champion system is like lol.

It's pretty clear that whoever is making the decisions doesn't have any interest in competitive PvP because as a competitive PvPer my interest in the game has diminished over time.

Waffennacht · May 2021

DM is easily the most popular.

Viewsfrom6ix · May 2021

ManDraKE wrote: »

just remove domination, that mode is poorly designed and matches are always boring, people just running aroun avoiding fights and standing on flags. Chaosball and crazy king can be very fun is the teams are balanced, removing domination would indirectly translate to a lot more DMs

Splitting queues even more is bad, population on highMMR PC/NA is already almost non-existant, it takes up to 10mins to get a queue, and is usually the same 15 or so players every time. And during the day when the pop is lower, you get pulled into mid-tier MMR and destroy everyone lol (it can be fun as long as you are not in the receiving end)

I know exactly what you mean. I definitely want DM only mode but I'm already in the high MMR bracket and the queue takes forever only to get the same players over again.

The only changeI think I'll be happy with is increase the chance of getting DM.

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

So I haven't really played this game actively since they added a cast time to "instant" Ults... It's pretty clear that whoever is making the decisions doesn't have any interest in competitive PvP

Agree. I can accept that competitive balance isn't what sells this game, but the ult cast times are truly heinous. They lower the floor and raise the ceiling. Poor Jimmy has zero chance of landing Dawnbreaker on a tryhard, while the tryhard who practices perfect timing can still one shot combo, at least until the daedric prince of lag decides to make it randomly fail. What saved me as a melee stam player is that you can effectively run Destro Ult thanks to ice staff blocking and the symmetrical armor pen on Major Breach with Drain. I would delete my account before using cast time Dawnbreaker.

quickblade418 · May 2021

Deathmatch is the most popular by far, like some others have said, the best solution would be to remove one of the two flag games ( I would say domination ) this would directly increase the number of deathmatchs popping.

Like when I see a tank queuing in BGs im like : ok this guy is clearly not queuing for deathmatchs and he clearly didn't understand that you need damage to kill other players in PvP and being a pure tank has no purposes other than cheesing an objective game , but at the same time a full healer can be just as tanky while healing others players.

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

quickblade418 wrote: »

remove one of the two flag games

Crazy King rewards actively avoiding PvP to run to empty flags. I never ever want to see this mode.

divnyi · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

quickblade418 wrote: »

remove one of the two flag games

Crazy King rewards actively avoiding PvP to run to empty flags. I never ever want to see this mode.

Actually it at least forces to PvP at 1-2 flags, gets stupid after 3 flags. But domination is a straight game of teamfight avoidance.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

quickblade418 wrote: »

remove one of the two flag games

Crazy King rewards actively avoiding PvP to run to empty flags. I never ever want to see this mode.

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

quickblade418 wrote: »

remove one of the two flag games

Crazy King rewards actively avoiding PvP to run to empty flags. I never ever want to see this mode.

Actually it at least forces to PvP at 1-2 flags, gets stupid after 3 flags. But domination is a straight game of teamfight avoidance.

Despite how effective avoiding PVP can be in flag games, I still prefer crazy King and domination over capture the relic and chaos ball.

The main reason being is that combat encounters in flag games are not overly influenced by the objective. This isn't a problem for anyone who ignores the objective, but I always play the objective and hence I rarely get the feeling of unadulterated PVP combat in chaos ball and capture the relic.

In chaos ball, I'm focused on getting and holding the ball, which means having my target be the ball carrier despite that not necessarily being the best option for my pure PVP perspective. Once I have the ball, or a teammate has the ball, it's all about just keeping the ball carrier alive and not necessarily about having fulfilling fights against the other team.

In capture the relic, PVP encounters are overshadowed by the need to grab a relic, or kill a relic carrier, or run away with a relic in hand, or interrupt someone trying to grab a relic. If you are focusing on the objective, you really don't get to enjoy the pure PVP element of it. I'll often defend our relic in capture the relic, one because it's important from a strategic perspective, and two, it allows for the occasional decent pure PVP encounter.

At least in domination and crazy king, there are times where it just makes sense to kill someone who is on a flag. That fight doesn't have other considerations. It's typically just a straight PVP encounter. Sometimes, if it winds up being a tank, you'll need to disengage to not waste too much time, but a lot of the time you'll get to actually enjoy a straight PVP fight, while still accomplishing an objective, without a bunch of other factors influencing the encounter.

divnyi · May 2021

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

At least in domination and crazy king, there are times where it just makes sense to kill someone who is on a flag. That fight doesn't have other considerations. It's typically just a straight PVP encounter. Sometimes, if it winds up being a tank, you'll need to disengage to not waste too much time, but a lot of the time you'll get to actually enjoy a straight PVP fight, while still accomplishing an objective, without a bunch of other factors influencing the encounter.

Ye, you can have straight up PvP encounter on flags. But objective-wise, team that evades all combat wins. Because while 2 teams teamfight over the flag (often white flag), other team grabs 3 flags. You can even wipe clean everyone whole game, circulating between midflag and sideflag, and still lose.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

divnyi wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

At least in domination and crazy king, there are times where it just makes sense to kill someone who is on a flag. That fight doesn't have other considerations. It's typically just a straight PVP encounter. Sometimes, if it winds up being a tank, you'll need to disengage to not waste too much time, but a lot of the time you'll get to actually enjoy a straight PVP fight, while still accomplishing an objective, without a bunch of other factors influencing the encounter.

Ye, you can have straight up PvP encounter on flags. But objective-wise, team that evades all combat wins. Because while 2 teams teamfight over the flag (often white flag), other team grabs 3 flags. You can even wipe clean everyone whole game, circulating between midflag and sideflag, and still lose.

I exclusively solo queue, I think it works a little bit better there. But you're right. If you're talking about team fights, they are definitely best avoided in crazy King and domination. They just take too much time.

At least in solo queue, a quick 1v1 can reward you a flag and not lead to you sacrificing a bunch of other control points.

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

At least in solo queue, a quick 1v1 can reward you a flag and not lead to you sacrificing a bunch of other control points.

Or you win the fight and the flag despawns before you get any points for your effort.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

At least in solo queue, a quick 1v1 can reward you a flag and not lead to you sacrificing a bunch of other control points.

Or you win the fight and the flag despawns before you get any points for your effort.

I would only 1v1 someone for a flag that I knew recently spawned (or in domination). If I saw someone taking a flag that had been on the field for a while, it would be another instance of PVP avoidance.

ajkb78 · May 2021

I agree with the previous poster, eliminate pure DM battlegrounds altogether but grant points for kills in other battlegrounds. Those who want to ignore the objectives and just DM it out can do so quite happily and grind their way to victory, those who want to play the objectives can do so too.

oahaha · May 2021

I propose the following:
1. There should be 2 categories like they are right now, group play and solo play, they should not mix in any way.
2. Under each category you should add objective battlegrounds and deathmatch battlegrounds.
3. You can only get rewards in objective battlegrounds, deathmatch battlegrounds only rewards the team or the player with AP.
4. You can only que to deathmatch battlegrounds if you participated in one objective battleground in that day, after that you can do as many deathmatch battlegrounds you want.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

oahaha wrote: »

I propose the following:
1. There should be 2 categories like they are right now, group play and solo play, they should not mix in any way.
2. Under each category you should add objective battlegrounds and deathmatch battlegrounds.
3. You can only get rewards in objective battlegrounds, deathmatch battlegrounds only rewards the team or the player with AP.
4. You can only que to deathmatch battlegrounds if you participated in one objective battleground in that day, after that you can do as many deathmatch battlegrounds you want.

Why would you ever want to take away item rewards from battlegrounds???? The rewards already are barely an incentive to play, taking them away would just be like spitting in the player's eye.

ajkb78 · May 2021

Having made my previous post, I think I've changed my mind. Keep deathmatches but split the queue into deathmatches and objective BGs, and the objective BG queue gives a random type of objective game. It might dilute the queues slightly but I think everyone would be happier with a minute's queue to get something they're happy with: deathmatch players just want to do that and not care about the objectives, they'd be quite happy never to play a domination game again I think. And players who like playing the objective would probably be really happy to be matched up with only players who want to play the objective too. I think that would also probably solve a lot of the unbalanced team issues that I think occur when one player in a team gets a type of game they don't like and insta-quits as soon as the loading screen is done.

furiouslog · May 2021

I hate deathmatch, but I'd love this change for that reason.

Chaosball is totally broken with all of the cheese spots, though, as several have mentioned. It's also possible to die and then have a teammate grab the chaosball while inside spawn points on some maps.

Joy_Division · May 2021

Ladislao wrote: »

Why is this the most popular mode? Where does this information / statistics come from?

I love Chaosball because it's way more dynamic and meaningful mode with even more intensive fights. "It's also the most popular". So let's make two options: Chaosball and other modes.

We know it's the most popular because when the official game version is something else, many people play it as Deathmatch.

We don;t see people standing in a corner pretending to capture a flag ala domination when the official game version is Deathmatch.

MurderMostFoul · May 2021

New PTS notes, no mention of modifying battlegrounds game type distribution.