LGBT+ guilds

Brrrofski · February 2021

I don't understand why this is such a long thread.

OP wants to know of an LGBT+ guild.

Someone suggested that some builds are LGBT+ friendly.

OP said that even then, it's not always a comfortable place so prefers an LGBT+ guild.

There was no need for anything else beyond guild names at that point.

If that's how OP feels, it's how OP feels.

Not sure why anyone feels like they should share their opinion on that.

Goregrinder · February 2021

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Germakochi wrote: »

Y'all are OBLIVIOUS, like you have actually no idea. Most of the people do homophobic jokes all the time and it effects us mentally. You could never imagine the amount of "jokes" we have to endure because otherwise we are "too sensitive" or a snowflake. They just asked for a guild and you feel the unstoppable need to dump all your ideas about how LGBTQIA+ people should behave and how they should feel. Can't you see?
Also have you ever thought they might want to talk about topics related to LGBTQIA+ because it's literally a sub-culture at this point or they want to connect with other people in that way? It is not rocket science and we don't need to be berated by other people on what we should look for, how we should behave and how we should percieve the world.

It really isn't rocket science and people who don't understand don't need to, nor is it any of their business. The OP asked for an LGBTQ+ guild and people feel the need to say it's dividing the community somehow and it's eugh. I've been looking for a decent match on PC-NA for a while now and having been through some of the big ones, I chose to look for something smaller. People can go "Oh it's dividing the community" all they want. No one said that LGBTQ+ joins ONLY those guilds. However for people who want to run content with likeminded individuals - it's hard. You've got transfolk who aren't comfortable with their speaking voice. You've got various speech markers and other idiosyncrasies (like passing comments about having to go talk to their same-sex partner/spouse) that comes up more frequently than people realize. To make matters worse, people use that as a determining factor on whether or not we're 'worth running' in progression content. Having been there myself? It sucks.

I think what people are pointing out is do you think the principle of "Only <Insert Group of People> are allowed in this guild, everyone else will not be included" is ok or not ok. If the goal is to promote tolerance of other people, their individuality, and to promote the inclusiveness of all humans, to then say "Oh but YOU can't join because you're not like us.." sort of undermines that goal. You basically become the thing you sought to destroy.

As someone who's LGBTQ+ myself, I've never seen someone who's an ally be rejected outside of those guilds unless they're being homophobic, transphobic, racist, and are generally harmful TO us.

So if you fall under that category? Yeah - you don't belong in those guilds. Period. No one anywhere said that people who aren't LGBTQ+ can't join them. It is literally still no one else's business whether or not LGBTQ+ guilds should exist or not. If you, or others, think that it divides the community then what about the many types of gameplay out there? I'll answer that rhetorical question for you - it doesn't divide any community anymore than the other guild types out there (PvE, PvP, RP, Trading, Housing, Crafting, so on and so forth) and anyone with the common sense to understand that? Will.

Anyone who is overtly being a Richard to other people usually gets kicked, that's with almost every guild though. That's pretty standard operating procedure for any guild. The good news is, almost all guilds are friendly towards everywhere, so OP won't have any issues finding 5 different guilds to join.

That hasn't been my experience, but okay? The point is - this shouldn't be a debate on whether or not they should exist. People should be plugging their LGBTQ+ guilds.

Every single MMORPG guild I was in, and every FPS clan I was in had people kicked for being Richards. That's been my experience, but I've always been playing FPS games online since 1999, and MMORPG's since 2004, so I've seen a thing or two. And I agree with you that guilds should be plugging whatever they want to about their guild. I think as long as they leave discrimination for anything other than behavior out, I don't think anyone is going to have a problem.

That's cool and all, but in the end it still diminishes the fact of why these guilds are necessary. I've been around since the era of MUDS. I've seen some things too that completely go against your experience as well as experiencing some pretty harrowing stuff as of late from GMs and officers of my own in ESO. Reporting doesn't do anything and is just as useful as wishful thinking.

My point wasn't whether or not Guild Masters are kicking people for x,y,x behavior when they should be. My point was that policing people/kicking people out of guilds aren't an exclusive outcome that only one type of guild exercises. I have literally saying people get G kicked and Clan kicked for all kinds of things.

You're saying that you've never seen anyone ever kicked out of a guild or clan in your entire life for their bad behavior? Your experiences shows that guilds don't already do that?

Sephyr · February 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Germakochi wrote: »

Y'all are OBLIVIOUS, like you have actually no idea. Most of the people do homophobic jokes all the time and it effects us mentally. You could never imagine the amount of "jokes" we have to endure because otherwise we are "too sensitive" or a snowflake. They just asked for a guild and you feel the unstoppable need to dump all your ideas about how LGBTQIA+ people should behave and how they should feel. Can't you see?
Also have you ever thought they might want to talk about topics related to LGBTQIA+ because it's literally a sub-culture at this point or they want to connect with other people in that way? It is not rocket science and we don't need to be berated by other people on what we should look for, how we should behave and how we should percieve the world.

It really isn't rocket science and people who don't understand don't need to, nor is it any of their business. The OP asked for an LGBTQ+ guild and people feel the need to say it's dividing the community somehow and it's eugh. I've been looking for a decent match on PC-NA for a while now and having been through some of the big ones, I chose to look for something smaller. People can go "Oh it's dividing the community" all they want. No one said that LGBTQ+ joins ONLY those guilds. However for people who want to run content with likeminded individuals - it's hard. You've got transfolk who aren't comfortable with their speaking voice. You've got various speech markers and other idiosyncrasies (like passing comments about having to go talk to their same-sex partner/spouse) that comes up more frequently than people realize. To make matters worse, people use that as a determining factor on whether or not we're 'worth running' in progression content. Having been there myself? It sucks.

I think what people are pointing out is do you think the principle of "Only <Insert Group of People> are allowed in this guild, everyone else will not be included" is ok or not ok. If the goal is to promote tolerance of other people, their individuality, and to promote the inclusiveness of all humans, to then say "Oh but YOU can't join because you're not like us.." sort of undermines that goal. You basically become the thing you sought to destroy.

As someone who's LGBTQ+ myself, I've never seen someone who's an ally be rejected outside of those guilds unless they're being homophobic, transphobic, racist, and are generally harmful TO us.

So if you fall under that category? Yeah - you don't belong in those guilds. Period. No one anywhere said that people who aren't LGBTQ+ can't join them. It is literally still no one else's business whether or not LGBTQ+ guilds should exist or not. If you, or others, think that it divides the community then what about the many types of gameplay out there? I'll answer that rhetorical question for you - it doesn't divide any community anymore than the other guild types out there (PvE, PvP, RP, Trading, Housing, Crafting, so on and so forth) and anyone with the common sense to understand that? Will.

Anyone who is overtly being a Richard to other people usually gets kicked, that's with almost every guild though. That's pretty standard operating procedure for any guild. The good news is, almost all guilds are friendly towards everywhere, so OP won't have any issues finding 5 different guilds to join.

That hasn't been my experience, but okay? The point is - this shouldn't be a debate on whether or not they should exist. People should be plugging their LGBTQ+ guilds.

Every single MMORPG guild I was in, and every FPS clan I was in had people kicked for being Richards. That's been my experience, but I've always been playing FPS games online since 1999, and MMORPG's since 2004, so I've seen a thing or two. And I agree with you that guilds should be plugging whatever they want to about their guild. I think as long as they leave discrimination for anything other than behavior out, I don't think anyone is going to have a problem.

That's cool and all, but in the end it still diminishes the fact of why these guilds are necessary. I've been around since the era of MUDS. I've seen some things too that completely go against your experience as well as experiencing some pretty harrowing stuff as of late from GMs and officers of my own in ESO. Reporting doesn't do anything and is just as useful as wishful thinking.

My point wasn't whether or not Guild Masters are kicking people for x,y,x behavior when they should be. My point was that policing people/kicking people out of guilds aren't an exclusive outcome that only one type of guild exercises. I have literally saying people get G kicked and Clan kicked for all kinds of things.

You're saying that you've never seen anyone ever kicked out of a guild or clan in your entire life for their bad behavior? Your experiences shows that guilds don't already do that?

Honestly, I'm just done trying to explain it to you. If you want to diminish the fact that discrimination is a very real thing, be my guest because you're not making any sense and it's none of your business why someone wants to be in an LGBTQ+ guild. Period, end of conversation.

ZOS_GregoryV · February 2021

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind all members that they be sure to keep comments on topic, and avoid derailing the thread.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Minyassa · February 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Germakochi wrote: »

Y'all are OBLIVIOUS, like you have actually no idea. Most of the people do homophobic jokes all the time and it effects us mentally. You could never imagine the amount of "jokes" we have to endure because otherwise we are "too sensitive" or a snowflake. They just asked for a guild and you feel the unstoppable need to dump all your ideas about how LGBTQIA+ people should behave and how they should feel. Can't you see?
Also have you ever thought they might want to talk about topics related to LGBTQIA+ because it's literally a sub-culture at this point or they want to connect with other people in that way? It is not rocket science and we don't need to be berated by other people on what we should look for, how we should behave and how we should percieve the world.

It really isn't rocket science and people who don't understand don't need to, nor is it any of their business. The OP asked for an LGBTQ+ guild and people feel the need to say it's dividing the community somehow and it's eugh. I've been looking for a decent match on PC-NA for a while now and having been through some of the big ones, I chose to look for something smaller. People can go "Oh it's dividing the community" all they want. No one said that LGBTQ+ joins ONLY those guilds. However for people who want to run content with likeminded individuals - it's hard. You've got transfolk who aren't comfortable with their speaking voice. You've got various speech markers and other idiosyncrasies (like passing comments about having to go talk to their same-sex partner/spouse) that comes up more frequently than people realize. To make matters worse, people use that as a determining factor on whether or not we're 'worth running' in progression content. Having been there myself? It sucks.

I think what people are pointing out is do you think the principle of "Only <Insert Group of People> are allowed in this guild, everyone else will not be included" is ok or not ok. If the goal is to promote tolerance of other people, their individuality, and to promote the inclusiveness of all humans, to then say "Oh but YOU can't join because you're not like us.." sort of undermines that goal. You basically become the thing you sought to destroy.

That's not how LGBT+-friendly guilds work. The phrase "LGBT+-friendly" only means that no homophobic or transphobic hatefulness is tolerated in the least. That's it. The guild I'm in has loads of people of all orientations and genders in it. There is no gatekeeping. There is no exclusion on the basis of how someone is born. The only exclusion by definition is of people who want to behave in a hateful way. Period.

And no, that absolutely is not the default for guilds. There are plenty of guilds where you can be as hateful as you like and no one will kick you out on your ear. Those are the ones that we want to avoid, so we look for ones that have a clear line drawn in the sand and police it. Many of us have had to tolerate enough hateful crap in real life that we have zero room for that in our leisure activities and we are absolutely entitled to look for groups that don't allow it.

Syldras · February 2021

Slurs are slurs, hate speech is hate speech, whether a person who would be directly affected is present or not (you never know that anyway when in a group with strangers). LGB people are told homophobic behaviour was no problem, they don't have to tell anyone they are LGB after all - how does that even make sense? Would you tell a woman she doesn't have to feel bad if she's confronted with misogyny in a guild chat, as she doesn't have to tell anyone she's a woman? Or "Yeah, they use racist slurs against non-white people, but you don't have to tell them you're not white after all"? It's still hurtful for people and spoils their fun in the game. This really is a strange discussion.

Generally, I'm actually against segregation of people. I don't like it at all that there's more and more group thinking and people separating themselves or others according to gender, sexual orientation, ethnics and nationality, etc. I think the focus should be making society a place without hatred and intolerance towards minorities who don't harm anyone, a place where people believe in equal human rights for everyone - a peaceful society as a whole, not a loose collection of different interest groups who mostly keep to themselves.

That said, I know we're unfortunately still far away from that (and I'm not sure if it will ever change). Although I've experienced the ESO community as rather friendly compared to other places, there are some people with homophobic (and misogynist, sexist and even racist) views around. They aren't many, but they are here - I came across a few personally. And I can understand very well that people don't want to be confronted with that because they don't want their fun while playing ESO spoilt. Some people are in a vulnerable situation in real life and want to divert from that while playing - it's perfectly fine if they search themselves a guild in which they feel safe. ESO is a hobby, a free time activity, a game, no one should be forced to confront themselves with topics like homophobia or sexism in the community here (topics that might already be a burden for them in real every day's life), if they don't want to. I'm personally not in a special guild that labels itself as gayfriendly, non-sexist or non-racist (things that should actually be normal in every guild), but if people feel the need for that, why would I be bothered?!

Also, hatespeech is against the TOS. Someone here said people "need to grow up" and not be so sensitive about some "jokes", we're all adults here after all - Yeah, that's right, people here are adults. You would assume adults can behave decently in social situations and keep to the TOS they've agreed with when they joined this "club".