Rikumaru wrote: »

A: They are good players.
B: They have better builds than you.

It would be a terrible game if all it took to win was to bring more players than the enemy.

Like they all do.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Shardaxx wrote: »

Daffen wrote: »

Most of the players that are "unkillable" in pvp have played for years and know how to make a build.

Nope they use builds off YouTube. That's why you get whole groups using EXACTLY the same build.

I don't think I have met a good player who uses a youtube build. Good players will usually make a build based on how they play, to fit their style.

Maybe so but there will be a build on YT that is similar to what they are running. Even if they came up with it themselves, they are sharing it with their mates, hence the cookie cutter groups doin the rounds.

Omg sooo many inane answers.

OP you are right and pretty much all the other posters here are wrong and trying to put 100% of the blame on you. Sure your build MAY be part of it, but if you play PvP enough everyone can put together a pretty decent, solid build. The problem you are describing is real ASSUMING you have a pretty decent and solid build, which is what most of the posters here are missing, don't understand or don't want to understand. However, the real answer is simple, the combat design team has and has had the entire combat system is a hot mess when it comes to PVP.

A huge factor and a big part of the success for many OP PvP builds is the ZOS exploit. The PC players hop onto the test servers after every change to sets, skills and combat and look for ZOS provided exploits. These range from bad combat mechanic decisions such as with Enchants or with DOTS etc. to out right code errors where stuff is miscalculated or proc or stack incorrectly etc. or suffer from poor implementation. Other examples, death logs where you just drop dead after your toon de-sync'd from Focused Aim and/or Silver Bolt. There are now people out there who are just spamming Focused Aim and Silver Bolt over and over to de-sync your toon. Once you are unresponsive your dead. Meteor is another that has been broke for years along with Focused Aim. Many more examples. Knowing what is broken and leveraging ZOS provided exploits is key to top end PVP builds.

Heavy Armor. For reasons that defy common sense for a well thought out combat system many of the best damage sets are Heavy Armor. Naively you might think a 2 offensive set build would be viable against someone in a "defensive build". Unfortunately, that is not the case. That "defensive build" will out DPS you. That Heavy Armor build is just as mobile as well.

Potions. Most players just don't bother too much with potions. Unfortunately, many potions can be borderline cheese. They are quaffing like crazy for burst heals, invisibility, immunity, lingering, attack stats.

Unbalanced Skills. Not really much I can see here that you don't see on the forums everyday. But you'll see things like a 1vX where the unkillable just stops every now and then in stands in the middle of the battle and does a Meditate to restore and there is nothing you can do about it. The just heal and resource up and continue with their running around. Or run around endlessly spamming mist, pots. 2-H is a mess and continues to get worse. The are all horribly overloaded skill that are effectively OP spammables. Jabs (sigh). A side effect of all this is that you now see more and more where people are building different unkillable builds that ignore the goals of Cyrodill game play. For them, the game IS now them running around playing tag having 10 players chasing them fruitlessly for minutes at a time.

Unbalanced Classes / Weapon Lines. Again enough said. Some classes/lines still have multiple levels of overloaded skills others little to none. Surprise there is still a class without a Stun, CC or an Execute, others a plethora of them. That is why all the unkillables with a DPS better than yours are all the same repetitive archetype builds.

Healing. Again it is all upside down and backwards. A small group of stam will out group heal a small group of magicka in PvP. This delta is much worse now with the combat systems latest breakage with regard to skill firing.

Myth Of Build Diversity. Again naively you might be thinking that there are so many ways to build decent solid builds that all end up in roughly at same place with interesting tradeoffs, variation and style. Not true. That is why you are seeing the same cloned ball groups over and over. The intersection of maximum current brokenness across classes, skills, sets, bugs/exploits is pretty small.

In summary, it is not you, it the much more the current state of things in PVP.

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Omg sooo many inane answers.

OP you are right and pretty much all the other posters here are wrong and trying to put 100% of the blame on you. Sure your build MAY be part of it, but if you play PvP enough everyone can put together a pretty decent, solid build. The problem you are describing is real ASSUMING you have a pretty decent and solid build, which is what most of the posters here are missing, don't understand or don't want to understand. However, the real answer is simple, the combat design team has and has had the entire combat system is a hot mess when it comes to PVP.

A huge factor and a big part of the success for many OP PvP builds is the ZOS exploit. The PC players hop onto the test servers after every change to sets, skills and combat and look for ZOS provided exploits. These range from bad combat mechanic decisions such as with Enchants or with DOTS etc. to out right code errors where stuff is miscalculated or proc or stack incorrectly etc. or suffer from poor implementation. Other examples, death logs where you just drop dead after your toon de-sync'd from Focused Aim and/or Silver Bolt. There are now people out there who are just spamming Focused Aim and Silver Bolt over and over to de-sync your toon. Once you are unresponsive your dead. Meteor is another that has been broke for years along with Focused Aim. Many more examples. Knowing what is broken and leveraging ZOS provided exploits is key to top end PVP builds.

Heavy Armor. For reasons that defy common sense for a well thought out combat system many of the best damage sets are Heavy Armor. Naively you might think a 2 offensive set build would be viable against someone in a "defensive build". Unfortunately, that is not the case. That "defensive build" will out DPS you. That Heavy Armor build is just as mobile as well.

Potions. Most players just don't bother too much with potions. Unfortunately, many potions can be borderline cheese. They are quaffing like crazy for burst heals, invisibility, immunity, lingering, attack stats.

Unbalanced Skills. Not really much I can see here that you don't see on the forums everyday. But you'll see things like a 1vX where the unkillable just stops every now and then in stands in the middle of the battle and does a Meditate to restore and there is nothing you can do about it. The just heal and resource up and continue with their running around. Or run around endlessly spamming mist, pots. 2-H is a mess and continues to get worse. The are all horribly overloaded skill that are effectively OP spammables. Jabs (sigh). A side effect of all this is that you now see more and more where people are building different unkillable builds that ignore the goals of Cyrodill game play. For them, the game IS now them running around playing tag having 10 players chasing them fruitlessly for minutes at a time.

Unbalanced Classes / Weapon Lines. Again enough said. Some classes/lines still have multiple levels of overloaded skills others little to none. Surprise there is still a class without a Stun, CC or an Execute, others a plethora of them. That is why all the unkillables with a DPS better than yours are all the same repetitive archetype builds.

Healing. Again it is all upside down and backwards. A small group of stam will out group heal a small group of magicka in PvP. This delta is much worse now with the combat systems latest breakage with regard to skill firing.

Myth Of Build Diversity. Again naively you might be thinking that there are so many ways to build decent solid builds that all end up in roughly at same place with interesting tradeoffs, variation and style. Not true. That is why you are seeing the same cloned ball groups over and over. The intersection of maximum current brokenness across classes, skills, sets, bugs/exploits is pretty small.

In summary, it is not you, it the much more the current state of things in PVP.

Yikes.

Daffen wrote: »

1. The bugs you are describing are there, but they arent enough to kill a player alone,

2. Heavy armor does not deal as much damage as medium armor and is only slightly tankier (healing recieved bonus is equal to the 15% extra weapon damage from medium armor) medium also gives more mobility when sprinting and has a snare removal and 25% less damage from aoe.

3. Potions arent that much a problem and they are available for every character

4. Skills are unbalanced but every class has its advantages and counters, jabs arent as good against experienced players, dizzy swing doesnt work against players that roll dodge or blocks them (which is easy), streak is good but doesnt work against gap closers and if you get stunned you can roll dodge straight away making them miss their crystal frags, light attack and mages fury burst combo

5. Magicka smallscalers can easily outheal stamina groups because of mutagen stacking and they usually have 3-4 dds one running full harmony, another with vicious death able to deal heavy aoe damage.

Everyone is able to 1vx so if you die against a player its either your own fault making small mistakes or they have better build than you. A perfect build against another perfect build should end in a draw or after one of the makes a mistake.

omg, where to even start.

Your combat observations are a little naive or are pretty much same cut & paste everyone uses here over and over without thought. e.g. Dodge roll Dizzy. Dizzy and company are now effectively overloaded spammables that are easy aim and land.

Just checked, I have 93,649 PVP kills. Almost all in quirky non-mainline builds. I'm sort of beyond dodge roll advice.

1. The Bugs/Exploits are enough to dictate the OP builds. You might not believe it. But current meta is almost ALWAYS the meta which maximizes the intersection of broken combat mechanics, either by mis-design and / or implementation. It been like that forever.

2. You can take any quality Heavy armor build against a Medium and trade blows. Or run the formulas in a spreadsheet. The heart of the issue are Heavy sets with offensive stats approaching a Mediums. It shouldn't even be close. Where are the Mediums that offer the same defensive capabilities across the board as Heavy with small to modest loss in offense? You have Heavys that retain all their defensive facets and yet are very close to equivalent with Mediums in offense. This simply should not be.

3. I just said most not long term PVP experienced players underestimate how some of these build really push the next level with food and potions that most of us don't. I don't. Maybe during some late night, early morning I will Tripot some small group play, put otherwise its all all blue food and trash pots. It's expensive and most don't bother or realize how much extra is gained there. Regardless potions used to be total cheese, now they are just unbalanced.

4. Skills are still VERY unbalanced as well as classes. Do we really have to go through example after example after example. It is not even close. And it is trivial to see. Look at any stats with regard to high end trials. Also even modest observation with regard to the most effective PVP builds shows they are very, very narrow. Same archetypes, same ol' classes in near identical builds and skill bars. If was even close to being balanced you would see much more variation. But you don't. And the reason you don't is because it is not very balanced at all.

5. On a net-net basis of group damage and group heals, a stam ball groups net damage heals, exceeds a mags. Also the stam can do more of it passively. Plus other asymmetries such a single Silence can put a Mag group totally out of business. Apply some common sense simple observation here. Almost all the high end small ball groups are stam dominated. Picture the following example, all else being equal, 3 Stamdens go up against 3 Magdens. 1-sided slaughter.

And finally, whose is at fault for dying is not the topic.

Annnnnd, this is because of this kind of forum whining from casual PvPers that everything is getting nerfed to the ground and ZOS say there is a too large gap of skill between players. Guess what I'm gonna tell you: learn to play, learn to PvP because yes, these 3 players would have died in front of experienced players. What do you want posting this kind of things exactly? These people have probably died way more than 3 times to get their actual experience. If you want to be at their level, just play, learn and stop crying while waiting for devs to make up for your own lack of knowledge. God damn.

Kalixte wrote: »

learn to play, learn to PvP because yes, these 3 players would have died in front of experienced players.

NO they wouldn't. Or I should say probably not. Simple observation in PVP will tell you otherwise.

Kalixte wrote: »

Dear, my dear, only two things can be unkillable nowadays: a good emperor, or a mediocre stamina necromancer.

Right, so let's define unkillable. I'll go first.

Unkillable is when a build cannot be killed by another single player, regardless of build.

Unkillable means that 2,3 or even more non-specialized builds cannot kill the player without spending an inordinate amount of time doing so. To point most will not bother absent overwhelming numbers, that player is in effect unkillable.

By non-specialized I mean where the builds are highly skewed for the target. For example, if you know you are dealing heavy blocking build and everyone skewed their skill bars towards a high resistance, blocking, heal bot yea, they could bring it down. But those builds will be completely ineffective with a run-around-a-rock build that can run around Alyssia Bridge both immortal and with impunity.

So lets walk through it now shall we. The first has been easily observed in Cyrodiil. It is a fact in a straight up 1v1 there (many) builds that cannot be killed. Period.

There are builds, who if their goal was to simply to not get killed while say running around a tower or Alessia Bridge or pick your favorite rock formation, can easily survive for a very long time even against even multiple experienced players.

Stroll around Cyrodiil late night or early hours of the morning. Gets pretty quite and tight, experienced 2,3,4-5 man small groups are more prevalent after the masses are tucked into bed. Observe when they collide and the count is equal. You can watch them rumble easily for over 10+ mins and nobody, nobody dies.

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Kalixte wrote: »

Dear, my dear, only two things can be unkillable nowadays: a good emperor, or a mediocre stamina necromancer.

Right, so let's define unkillable. I'll go first.

Unkillable is when a build cannot be killed by another single player, regardless of build.

Unkillable means that 2,3 or even more non-specialized builds cannot kill the player without spending an inordinate amount of time doing so. To point most will not bother absent overwhelming numbers, that player is in effect unkillable.

By non-specialized I mean where the builds are highly skewed for the target. For example, if you know you are dealing heavy blocking build and everyone skewed their skill bars towards a high resistance, blocking, heal bot yea, they could bring it down. But those builds will be completely ineffective with a run-around-a-rock build that can run around Alyssia Bridge both immortal and with impunity.

So lets walk through it now shall we. The first has been easily observed in Cyrodiil. It is a fact in a straight up 1v1 there (many) builds that cannot be killed. Period.

There are builds, who if their goal was to simply to not get killed while say running around a tower or Alessia Bridge or pick your favorite rock formation, can easily survive for a very long time even against even multiple experienced players.

Stroll around Cyrodiil late night or early hours of the morning. Gets pretty quite and tight, experienced 2,3,4-5 man small groups are more prevalent after the masses are tucked into bed. Observe when they collide and the count is equal. You can watch them rumble easily for over 10+ mins and nobody, nobody dies.

I’ve seen those solo troll builds, thing is they can’t kill anyone too... well except new players. Best thing to do is not chase and ignore them.

Just because someone isn’t blocking doesn’t mean they aren’t a tank. If someone wants to be hard to kill, I say go have fun. I just don’t understand why people play their game and chase them around.

Most small scale players are too tanky and designed to farm new players, so of course they can’t kill each other. Pit them up against an equal sized experienced group and they get rolled though because the experienced group will be able to bring damage. You see the tanky types in BGs all the time too, add a healer and suddenly they can’t kill anyone and end the match with less than half everyone else’s damage.

Sometimes for fun I used to Zerg surf heal and a lot of small scale group’s damage is bad. I could heal Pugs through the small scaler’s Ult dumps because they’re so tanky and lack damage. Those small scale groups rely on finding people who don’t have a healer and don’t heal themselves, and always the same lame trick: be a tank, kite through a choke point, Ult dump the new players who chase into the choke. As a lone healer it’s almost too easy to troll the small scalers and heal the randoms because the small scalers are so predictable and lack burst.

Iskiab wrote: »

[
I’ve seen those builds, thing is they can’t kill anyone too... well except new players. Best thing to do is not chase and ignore them.

Just because someone isn’t blocking doesn’t mean they aren’t a tank. If someone wants to be hard to kill, I say go have fun. I just don’t understand why people play their game and chase them around.

But that gets us right back to the original OP's point. Why are you stating best not to chase them?[1] It is because they will kill you. He was not talking about immortal builds but the "Unkillable, yet still do high damage". I'm saying factor out skill, experience, and tight small group play and there is still way too having to do with stuff that we've talked about that at this point in ESO's life cycle should have been smoothed out years (years!!) ago.


[1] Well I almost always chase if it is a rock or open field situation. Or small group rock running. My build is biased for that exact case. Not so much chasing some group hell bent on running around a tower in circles.

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

[
I’ve seen those builds, thing is they can’t kill anyone too... well except new players. Best thing to do is not chase and ignore them.

Just because someone isn’t blocking doesn’t mean they aren’t a tank. If someone wants to be hard to kill, I say go have fun. I just don’t understand why people play their game and chase them around.

But that gets us right back to the original OP's point. Why are you stating best not to chase them?[1] It is because they will kill you. He was not talking about immortal builds but the "Unkillable, yet still do high damage". I'm saying factor out skill, experience, and tight small group play and there is still way too having to do with stuff that we've talked about that at this point in ESO's life cycle should have been smoothed out years (years!!) ago.


[1] Well I almost always chase if it is a rock or open field situation. Or small group rock running. My build is biased for that exact case. Not so much chasing some group hell bent on running around a tower in circles.

I take ‘unkillable and high damage’ with a grain of salt. What probably happened was they chased someone around and let their health and buffs drop. Then the person turned around and Ult dumped them all.

If you’re experienced and using self heals, are aware, keeping your buffs up, then those tanky types can’t kill you.

If the person is a good players and kiting the group in a normal spec, then yea, they could kill one of expwrienced player maybe, no way a group of them.