Werewolf needs a buff

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

EDIT: Interesting discussion. You're right, I should have titled the thread "Buff Werewolves" (have since changed) My intent wasn't even to change vampires (I know, dumb title), but to bring WW back to a competitive option.

I won't be checking this thread any longer as it seems all/most arguments have already been stated. We're just at diminishing returns now. Thank all for your input.

So we’re given two options to violate our soul in the game - Vampire and Werewolf (would love to see another option. Maybe mummy!)

But one of them is HEAVILY over represented; in PvE, and especially, PvP.

Vampire cons:
-extra fire damage (noticeable, but easily rectified by going to level 1 when doing fire-heavy content.
-lowered health regen (one of the most useless stats in the game)

Pro:
-enhanced regen
-undeath passive (incredibly strong, especially on tanks I see as vampires)
-Sneak speed movement penalty off (obviously some are vampire level dependent).

Wolf

Cons:
-Need to have the ultimate slotted to get the relatively meager (in comparison) stamina regen. 5% more than vampire, which has it all the time regardless of which abilities you use.
-Poison damage increase (significant amount of poison in PvP).
-Transformation a heavy cost
-Cannot rez while in wolf form.
-Wolf synergies to teammates sorely need a buff
-Heavy attacks are cumbersome and have entirely too long an animation
-Lunge is clunky

Pro’s:
-Stamina regen (with ult slotted)
-big weapon damage/resist boost upon transformation
-Abilities in wolf form are useful and fairly strong.

On paper, Werewolf looks decent. And it is pretty strong, for sure. But you never see anyone rockin the wolf in end-game content. Perhaps occasionally in a dungeon, but typically I see it in the easy ones, not the DLC dungeons. I like the added utility when grouped with other werewolves, but I feel this bonus should be higher, considering the con’s to the class ability.

TL DR - Vampire has amazing strengths, and very few noticeable weaknesses. Perfectly viable in both PvE and PvP content, and a fairly high number of players utilize it.

Werewolf needs a buff. The transformation itself is decently strong, but comes with enough negatives to dismay most people from ever using it. Not bad in solo content, but considering how many abilities give synergies, it seems designed for group play. If this is what is intended, then it needs to be more pronounced. Strengthen the synergies, and perhaps modify some abilities to make them sexier. The fact that their lunge is grouped in with the gap closer nerf is completely unnecessary.

On a somewhat separate note - the Werewolf animations all look pretty bad. It seems like they have 0 hit detection. Half the time I’m swiping at the air, and the enemy takes damage regardless. Unnecessary stutter delay on fear, lunge seems to hit a good 10feet from the enemy, and even the normal light attacks just look unrefined. The entire class needs an overhaul.

Sixty5 · January 2018

WW only takes the additional poison damage and such whilst transformed, so that drawback is kinda moot.

Honestly, I love fighting Vamps for the simple fact that my Dawnbreaker really puts a hurtin on them.

BlazingDynamo · January 2018

Why not call for a warewolf buff instead of a vampire nerf?

Smfh you people. I need to just quit the forums before I choke someone out.

brandonv516 · January 2018

Werewolf needs some utility/sustain love - no damage buff.

Vampires need to be left alone. They are popular because they work well - they do not over-perform.

On another note, Mist Form needs to be looked at as people can still snare/immobilize you while using (not all of the time).

Gilvoth · January 2018

not everyone agrees with your assessment and what you say here @SmellyUnlimited
i for one hate the very low health regen and i hate that fire damage because all dragonights kill me within a few seconds because of it.
low health regen. and a few other things you said i simply do not agree with.

idk · January 2018

To straighten out some of the obvious misinformation in the OP:

So OP thinks vamps need nerfed because he/she thinks they are over-represented in PvP. So if there are more wardens (maybe some day) or more bow wielding menaces we nerf them merely due to their numbers?

Also, his comparisons, pros and cons of the vamps and WWs are off. WWs do not take extra poison damage all the time which is what the OP leads players to believe. They only take that extra damage when in form.

Interestingly, and a clear demonstration that the OP is based on emotions rather than real information, OP makes it sound like vamps have it on easy street since they can get rid of the biggest cost merely by returning to vamp stage 1 yet fails in a major way to explain every single positive aspect of being a vampire is not present in vamp stage 1.

Clearly a post of fallacy in an attempt to make a point that would fall much flatter with accurate information.

ParaNostram · January 2018

Vampires need a redesign, not a nerf. They need to be like werewolves are now, something that changes your playstyle and something that can be very strong if you build for it.

I made a post with my thoughts on it a while back.

brandonv516 · January 2018

ParaNostram wrote: »

Vampires need a redesign, not a nerf. They need to be like werewolves are now, something that changes your playstyle and something that can be very strong if you build for it.

I made a post with my thoughts on it a while back.

I can get on board with that. I was content with the way the game required you to have an active skill to get the passives.

Chrlynsch · January 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

Werewolf needs some utility/sustain love - no damage buff.

Vampires need to be left alone. They are popular because they work well - they do not over-perform.

On another note, Mist Form needs to be looked at as people can still snare/immobilize you while using (not all of the time).

Werewolves have a sustain buff on the PTS.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2018

Ch4mpTW · January 2018

Would ya look at that. Another person wants something nerfed, because of their experience against said something within a PvP environment. How original...

No OP. Vampires are fine in ESO. And also, please take into consideration that there is such a thing as PvE. When things get nerfed from things that seem to be overperforming from a PvP perspective, it usually hurts those in the PvE side dramatically more. So the next time you ask for something to be nerfed, please consider both the PvP AND PvE communities. I’m tired of having things being nerfed in PvE, because of their performance in PvP. Case and point, shield duration.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Would ya look at that. Another person wants something nerfed, because of their experience against said something within a PvP environment. How original...

No OP. Vampires are fine in ESO. And also, please take into consideration that there is such a thing as PvE. When things get nerfed from things that seem to be overperforming from a PvP perspective, it usually hurts those in the PvE side dramatically more. So the next time you ask for something to be nerfed, please consider both the PvP AND PvE communities. I’m tired of having things being nerfed in PvE, because of their performance in PvP. Case and point, shield duration.

I never said nerf them because of PvP, I just noted that a lot of players are vampires. Further, I also specifically mentioned that a lot of PvE players are too. I try not and separate the communities because the majority of players I play with do both. Vampire is strong on each of them.

idk wrote: »

To straighten out some of the obvious misinformation in the OP:

So OP thinks vamps need nerfed because he/she thinks they are over-represented in PvP. So if there are more wardens (maybe some day) or more bow wielding menaces we nerf them merely due to their numbers?

Also, his comparisons, pros and cons of the vamps and WWs are off. WWs do not take extra poison damage all the time which is what the OP leads players to believe. They only take that extra damage when in form.

Interestingly, and a clear demonstration that the OP is based on emotions rather than real information, OP makes it sound like vamps have it on easy street since they can get rid of the biggest cost merely by returning to vamp stage 1 yet fails in a major way to explain every single positive aspect of being a vampire is not present in vamp stage 1.

Clearly a post of fallacy in an attempt to make a point that would fall much flatter with accurate information.

You’re right, I didn’t go into minute detail in my pro’s and con’s. I assumed I was writing to a player base that knew where to fill in the gaps, and for brevity’s sake, chose not to include those facts. It wasn’t, as you snidely alluded to, an intent to spread misinformation. The very fact that you chose to make such a sweeping generalization, and for that matter, a personal attack, shows that you aren’t interested in discourse, but rather just like finger-wagging and sighing loudly.

I like the idea of a vampire redesign. As for Werewolf, perhaps some nascent ability (nothing over the top) that you have access to while not transformed. Or if you want to go whole hog, bring back the poison damage debuff and the stamina regen as used to be - on all the time. Regardless if you were transformed or not. Maybe we’d see the Bosmer emerge from hiding because of it.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Werewolf needs some utility/sustain love - no damage buff.

Vampires need to be left alone. They are popular because they work well - they do not over-perform.

On another note, Mist Form needs to be looked at as people can still snare/immobilize you while using (not all of the time).

Werewolves have a sustain buff on the PTS.

@Chrlynsch

Where is this sustain buff mention? I read through all the PTS notes again looking for it, but didn’t see any changes to Werewolf at all. Can you point me in the right direction?

...I so hope this isn’t just the normal 15% stam regen when slotted that they’ve always had....

D0PAMINE · January 2018

This thread is quite misleading.

Chrlynsch · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Werewolf needs some utility/sustain love - no damage buff.

Vampires need to be left alone. They are popular because they work well - they do not over-perform.

On another note, Mist Form needs to be looked at as people can still snare/immobilize you while using (not all of the time).

Werewolves have a sustain buff on the PTS.

@Chrlynsch

Where is this sustain buff mention? I read through all the PTS notes again looking for it, but didn’t see any changes to Werewolf at all. Can you point me in the right direction?

...I so hope this isn’t just the normal 15% stam regen when slotted that they’ve always had....

It is not mentioned in the notes. The base stam return from a heavy attack has increased. I can't tell you the raw values, but my wolf went from a 4.25k stam return on a heavy attack to 6.25k. With the changes to off balance, we're looking at a massive stam return to werewolf heavy attacks.

Belegnole · January 2018

While I wouldn't say that vampires need a nerf. I would say that it is part of almost every meta build I've looked at lately. It's almost all positive with little real negative. PvE, PvP doesn't really matter.

The biggest complaint I've seen, is that people are mad that they're no longer pretty!

The fact that anyone can do it and that people choose not to, is why I would say it's not OP.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · January 2018

Absolutely not.

Casul · January 2018

Dude take everything else but leave the sneak speed. It is the only thing that makes doing a perfect heist or sacrament easy.

LordSemaj · January 2018

BuildMan wrote: »

Dude take everything else but leave the sneak speed. It is the only thing that makes doing a perfect heist or sacrament easy.

Use this instead. http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Night's+Silence+Set

ccfeeling · January 2018

Vamp is not meta , no need to nerf

TheDoomsdayMonster · January 2018

@SmellyUnlimited

The fire weakness is huge in PvP...

Do you know one of the biggest reasons why Eye of Flame/Proxy Det/Vicious Death is so strong in PvP?

Vampires...

Eye of Flame is already very strong; add a 25% vulnerability to it, combine it with Proxy Det, and watch those Vamps melt...

When they melt, they proc Vicious Death which kills the survivors...

Now in PvP, to get the most out of Vamp, you gotta be in stage 4 as the Dark Stalker passive and Elusive Mist (it's too expensive at any stage except 4) are very strong for the classes that lack mobility (Temps/MagDK's)...

So we gotta be in Stage 4 in PvP which means we have to tolerate and deal with the Fire Vulnerability...

In short, Vamp is fine and requires no nerfing...

Joy_Division · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

So we’re given two options to violate our soul in the game - Vampire and Werewolf (would love to see another option. Maybe mummy!)

But one of them is HEAVILY over represented; in PvE, and especially, PvP.

Vampire cons:
-extra fire damage (noticeable, but easily rectified by going to level 1 when doing fire-heavy content.

How about you actually try being a vampire in PvP before you claim it has no downside? Dawnbreaker doesn't care about Level 1 and Level 1 makes Vamp Mist, the main reason many go vamp for PvP, very expensive.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

-lowered health regen (one of the most useless stats in the game)

I stopped reading there.

Dude... If you even realized how powerful health regen can be and how much of a disadvantage a low health regen is, then you would probably be calling for nerfs to that too.

Thankfully your ability to call for nerfs can only encompass what you can see on your death log so mechanics beyond your sphere of comprehension are free from your hypothetical nerf bat for the moment.

Also. Things don't need nerfs because people die to them. This thread makes me sad.

Nemesis7884 · January 2018

maybe just lower werewolf transf cost a bit

dsalter · January 2018

just fix the werewolf stam costs, the stam return on heavy attack (tho i'v been told is fixed on PTS), undo the upcoming pounce nerf, give minor protection at all times.
as vamp just increase fire damage intake by a further 5%, maybe increase bat cost slightly.
but otherwise vampires are fine, the werewolf is what needs fixed

Jarryzzt · January 2018

Umm...wait. The topic says "nerf vampires" but the body of the OP says "buff werewolves"?

Consistency, hobgoblins, small minds...

1. Lowered health regen is nothing to scoff at. Especially if one is doing solo content (and isn't a Nightblade with a stupid amount of spammable self-heals...).

2. Going to level 1 to avoid fire damage penalty is...not what I would recommend. Because then you still retain quite a few of the vampire drawbacks but lose a huge chunk of vampire benefits (some of which kick in only at level 3+). This would be why many (most?) vamps stay at level 4 all the time and deal with fire vulnerability in other ways (if at all).

3. I have said this before, and I will say this again. The one reason I do not play WW is because it forces you to a) transform to benefit from anything wolf-related, and b) to switch your regular skills/rotation for WW skills. I am not saying that one cannot make WWs work, but it's just too specialized for my tastes. That, to me, is the real problem with WWs (that ought to be solved before talking about balancing).

Betsararie · January 2018

Nope

Everyone has access to it. Just a bad idea all around actually

Qbiken · January 2018

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Why not call for a warewolf buff instead of a vampire nerf?

Smfh you people. I need to just quit the forums before I choke someone out.

You´ve my vote. #buffwerewolf

Only thing regarding vamp is the damage mitigation from mistform. Reduce the damage mitigation from mistform but let them regen magicka while in mistform. Mitigation in PvP is already out of control as it is.....

Nova Sky · January 2018

Touch my vampire, and I'll turn you into one.

Runschei · January 2018

How about a nerf to the freshly dipped face in flour look? I would be up for that.

NyassaV · January 2018

Vampire is pretty meh as it is. I can kill people who use mist form at 20% health so I'm not sure what your issue is. And health regen penalty is a huge detriment to Troll King, a very powerful defensive set