PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

- When you spamm streak you are sing your skill to avoid melee dmg and you avoid it.
- When you cast a shield in middle of talons you are using your magicka to mitigate some dmg
- When you are at the range of an AoE while cloaked, o matter what you do, the skill is cancelled even if you spam it and you do receive damage. And you think that's fair.

Regarding the example I used to, at least, make you understand why it is unfair that AoE BREAK cloak:
1. CC is a counter to every single playing style in this game
2. Shieldbreaker is a specific set that conditionates the playig style of who's wearing it, same as CP
3. Poison are not mandatory. If you want to have access to them, you need gold or enough time to gather material

Finally, what the OP is suggesting is this: AOE STILL DO DMG AND MAKES YOU VISIBLE WHEN CLOAKED, The thing is that, if you walk away from the AoE within the duration of cloak, you should be cloaked again, respecting the tooltip. So, the AoE counter to cloak remains untouched because it still it reveals the cloaked char within the AoE range. From the attacker PoV nothing's changed.
From the cloak user there's a logical improvement: don't waste you magicka spamming a skill that's useless after you have been hit by an AoE and just make it more useful.

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

- When you spamm streak you are sing your skill to avoid melee dmg and you avoid it.
- When you cast a shield in middle of talons you are using your magicka to mitigate some dmg
- When you are at the range of an AoE while cloaked, o matter what you do, the skill is cancelled even if you spam it and you do receive damage. And you think that's fair.

Regarding the example I used to, at least, make you understand why it is unfair that AoE BREAK cloak:
1. CC is a counter to every single playing style in this game
2. Shieldbreaker is a specific set that conditionates the playig style of who's wearing it, same as CP
3. Poison are not mandatory. If you want to have access to them, you need gold or enough time to gather material

Finally, what the OP is suggesting is this: AOE STILL DO DMG AND MAKES YOU VISIBLE WHEN CLOAKED, The thing is that, if you walk away from the AoE within the duration of cloak, you should be cloaked again, respecting the tooltip. So, the AoE counter to cloak remains untouched because it still it reveals the cloaked char within the AoE range. From the attacker PoV nothing's changed.
From the cloak user there's a logical improvement: don't waste you magicka spamming a skill that's useless after you have been hit by an AoE and just make it more useful.

I understand you and the OP perfectly fine, I think you're misunderstanding me, or perhaps just refuse to see my side of things.

1. CC is a counter to nearly every single playing style in the game, except to a cloaked NB
2. Shieldbreaker is specific but it's still a counter. I dont want to waste time, money, and resources on detect pots but I do it because it's a counter to cloak specifically.
3. Poisons are just about mandatory in PVP. Just from my personal testing, I was able to use 26 hardened wards in a row before I ran out of resources, stick 1 poison proc and it drops to 14 with it wearing off after around 10. being continuously attacked and the poison reapplying, I'm down to 6-10. If you dont WANT to use poisons, that's on you, but it's clearly a full counter to the playstyle.

I get the AOE still does damage, that's not the part I take issue with. Walking away from the AOE and getting the rest of your invisibility IS what I take issue with. I used my resource to cancel yours. It revealed your location and now you have to use it again if you want to remain hidden. Getting discovered and then moving slightly to the left and immediately going back into stealth, becoming untargetable without repaying for the resource isnt fair. You want to alter the ONE thing that can hit you in such a way that it's easier for you to avoid anything additional happening. Again read #63, even tho the NB is revealed, sidestep out of AOE and you're back to being untargetable for no additional cost to you. Whereas in the current state even if I can't target you (due to you recasting cloak) I know you're being pressured into using more of your resources. It's very clear in basic numbers right there in front of you that the change does alter and effect counterplay.

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

- When you spamm streak you are sing your skill to avoid melee dmg and you avoid it.
- When you cast a shield in middle of talons you are using your magicka to mitigate some dmg
- When you are at the range of an AoE while cloaked, o matter what you do, the skill is cancelled even if you spam it and you do receive damage. And you think that's fair.

Regarding the example I used to, at least, make you understand why it is unfair that AoE BREAK cloak:
1. CC is a counter to every single playing style in this game
2. Shieldbreaker is a specific set that conditionates the playig style of who's wearing it, same as CP
3. Poison are not mandatory. If you want to have access to them, you need gold or enough time to gather material

Finally, what the OP is suggesting is this: AOE STILL DO DMG AND MAKES YOU VISIBLE WHEN CLOAKED, The thing is that, if you walk away from the AoE within the duration of cloak, you should be cloaked again, respecting the tooltip. So, the AoE counter to cloak remains untouched because it still it reveals the cloaked char within the AoE range. From the attacker PoV nothing's changed.
From the cloak user there's a logical improvement: don't waste you magicka spamming a skill that's useless after you have been hit by an AoE and just make it more useful.

I understand you and the OP perfectly fine, I think you're misunderstanding me, or perhaps just refuse to see my side of things.

1. CC is a counter to nearly every single playing style in the game, except to a cloaked NB
2. Shieldbreaker is specific but it's still a counter. I dont want to waste time, money, and resources on detect pots but I do it because it's a counter to cloak specifically.
3. Poisons are just about mandatory in PVP. Just from my personal testing, I was able to use 26 hardened wards in a row before I ran out of resources, stick 1 poison proc and it drops to 14 with it wearing off after around 10. being continuously attacked and the poison reapplying, I'm down to 6-10. If you dont WANT to use poisons, that's on you, but it's clearly a full counter to the playstyle.

I get the AOE still does damage, that's not the part I take issue with. Walking away from the AOE and getting the rest of your invisibility IS what I take issue with. I used my resource to cancel yours. It revealed your location and now you have to use it again if you want to remain hidden. Getting discovered and then moving slightly to the left and immediately going back into stealth, becoming untargetable without repaying for the resource isnt fair. You want to alter the ONE thing that can hit you in such a way that it's easier for you to avoid anything additional happening. Again read #63, even tho the NB is revealed, sidestep out of AOE and you're back to being untargetable for no additional cost to you. Whereas in the current state even if I can't target you (due to you recasting cloak) I know you're being pressured into using more of your resources. It's very clear in basic numbers right there in front of you that the change does alter and effect counterplay.

How do I cancel your streak? Because if you spend 3k magicka using it, the result is that you are teleported, right?

Currently there's a bug related to streak in which you spend magicka in certain locations but you get rooted. That's unfair and should be changed.

Now, think about the same, but in the case of cloak; why should a cloak user be punished for being revealed, to recast the skill after the AoE hit him? It makes no sense. Not even rooting a sorc can prevent him for streaking and we are all OK with that.

Thing about this, if you are in middle of a EOTS, what most people do is to dodge roll to avoid the dmg and prevent incoming single target skill through evasion. That's a perfectly valid skill and no one complains about it. Now think about dodge rolling outside the EOTS (or any other AoE skill) AND being targeteable for single target not chanelled skills. If ZoS implement that, people would go NUTS.

What happens to cloak is similar to the the second case but with every kind of attack. Cloak does not offer anything else beyond being invisible (maybe a guaranteed crit and a lame buff) .

At the end, you are putting the player that reveals the cloaked NB in an excelent position for counter just by sloting one skill, but you are not giving anything to the NB who is forced to run 2 or 3 other defensive skills to cope with the countergank. So the NBs bar ends up filled with heals, CCs and buffs, besides cloak, and one offensive skill.

Then people ask why the only playing style NBs use is ganking...

Yes there's a couple of bugs with streak, only difference here is that I'm not asking that it get buffed in order to offset the glitch. I'm waiting for them to just fix it. If you want to cancel it, negate is a great way, a CC like destructive reach, stone fist, javelin...are also good the list goes on. Sometimes the streak goes into a hill head-on and you don't go anywhere because of a slight incline, you just reposition yourself and try again, it's not that big of a deal. Is it frustrating? sure, but again it doesn't deserve a buff to offset that.

c'mon, you can't be serious here... The current status doesn't put the attacker in a better position than the NB, at all. A NB can control the entire fight and cloak is a big part of the "how" in how they do that. Between fear (best CC in the game) and cloak, you have plenty of tools at your disposal to deal with someone coming after you. Most players have to slot 2 or 3 different counters just because of your ability to cloak up, and the second anyone complains about it, in come all the NBs claiming it's totally fair and justified and that anyone who doesnt slot at least 2 counters to their playstyle are scrubs who need to l2p. Just look at OP, the second anyone disagrees with him, he gets defensive and immediately starts to say it's a player issue. turnabout is fair play here, I've fought some amazing NBs who timed out their cloaks perfectly while utilizing shadow image and other mobility options to the point where you literally have no idea where they went or where they'll strike from. So obviously some people have no issues even with the skill "broken" so maybe it's a l2p issue.

There's plenty of other skills that get cancelled by a single slotted ability; DKs who use reflective shut down sorcs HARD. Sorcs depend on a timed burst involving frag, but with wings up, that frag has to be timed JUST right (if it gets thrown at all) to finish them off. Anyone attempting to revive someone or any templars using radiant can be force shocked and interrupted. Negate shuts down all magic abilities, theres tons of other examples, the game is filled with 1 slot counter abilities. And you get no sympathy from me trying to say you HAVE to slot 2 or 3 other defensive abilities, I have to have 3 slots just for shield, 1 of which is 100% unreliable (healing ward). my entire back bar is filled with defensive measures. That's just how we choose to play, we're squishy and need some help staying alive.

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

- When you spamm streak you are sing your skill to avoid melee dmg and you avoid it.
- When you cast a shield in middle of talons you are using your magicka to mitigate some dmg
- When you are at the range of an AoE while cloaked, o matter what you do, the skill is cancelled even if you spam it and you do receive damage. And you think that's fair.

Regarding the example I used to, at least, make you understand why it is unfair that AoE BREAK cloak:
1. CC is a counter to every single playing style in this game
2. Shieldbreaker is a specific set that conditionates the playig style of who's wearing it, same as CP
3. Poison are not mandatory. If you want to have access to them, you need gold or enough time to gather material

Finally, what the OP is suggesting is this: AOE STILL DO DMG AND MAKES YOU VISIBLE WHEN CLOAKED, The thing is that, if you walk away from the AoE within the duration of cloak, you should be cloaked again, respecting the tooltip. So, the AoE counter to cloak remains untouched because it still it reveals the cloaked char within the AoE range. From the attacker PoV nothing's changed.
From the cloak user there's a logical improvement: don't waste you magicka spamming a skill that's useless after you have been hit by an AoE and just make it more useful.

I understand you and the OP perfectly fine, I think you're misunderstanding me, or perhaps just refuse to see my side of things.

1. CC is a counter to nearly every single playing style in the game, except to a cloaked NB
2. Shieldbreaker is specific but it's still a counter. I dont want to waste time, money, and resources on detect pots but I do it because it's a counter to cloak specifically.
3. Poisons are just about mandatory in PVP. Just from my personal testing, I was able to use 26 hardened wards in a row before I ran out of resources, stick 1 poison proc and it drops to 14 with it wearing off after around 10. being continuously attacked and the poison reapplying, I'm down to 6-10. If you dont WANT to use poisons, that's on you, but it's clearly a full counter to the playstyle.

I get the AOE still does damage, that's not the part I take issue with. Walking away from the AOE and getting the rest of your invisibility IS what I take issue with. I used my resource to cancel yours. It revealed your location and now you have to use it again if you want to remain hidden. Getting discovered and then moving slightly to the left and immediately going back into stealth, becoming untargetable without repaying for the resource isnt fair. You want to alter the ONE thing that can hit you in such a way that it's easier for you to avoid anything additional happening. Again read #63, even tho the NB is revealed, sidestep out of AOE and you're back to being untargetable for no additional cost to you. Whereas in the current state even if I can't target you (due to you recasting cloak) I know you're being pressured into using more of your resources. It's very clear in basic numbers right there in front of you that the change does alter and effect counterplay.

How do I cancel your streak? Because if you spend 3k magicka using it, the result is that you are teleported, right?

Currently there's a bug related to streak in which you spend magicka in certain locations but you get rooted. That's unfair and should be changed.

Now, think about the same, but in the case of cloak; why should a cloak user be punished for being revealed, to recast the skill after the AoE hit him? It makes no sense. Not even rooting a sorc can prevent him for streaking and we are all OK with that.

Thing about this, if you are in middle of a EOTS, what most people do is to dodge roll to avoid the dmg and prevent incoming single target skill through evasion. That's a perfectly valid skill and no one complains about it. Now think about dodge rolling outside the EOTS (or any other AoE skill) AND being targeteable for single target not chanelled skills. If ZoS implement that, people would go NUTS.

What happens to cloak is similar to the the second case but with every kind of attack. Cloak does not offer anything else beyond being invisible (maybe a guaranteed crit and a lame buff) .

At the end, you are putting the player that reveals the cloaked NB in an excelent position for counter just by sloting one skill, but you are not giving anything to the NB who is forced to run 2 or 3 other defensive skills to cope with the countergank. So the NBs bar ends up filled with heals, CCs and buffs, besides cloak, and one offensive skill.

Then people ask why the only playing style NBs use is ganking...

Yes there's a couple of bugs with streak, only difference here is that I'm not asking that it get buffed in order to offset the glitch. I'm waiting for them to just fix it. If you want to cancel it, negate is a great way, a CC like destructive reach, stone fist, javelin...are also good the list goes on. Sometimes the streak goes into a hill head-on and you don't go anywhere because of a slight incline, you just reposition yourself and try again, it's not that big of a deal. Is it frustrating? sure, but again it doesn't deserve a buff to offset that.

c'mon, you can't be serious here... The current status doesn't put the attacker in a better position than the NB, at all. A NB can control the entire fight and cloak is a big part of the "how" in how they do that. Between fear (best CC in the game) and cloak, you have plenty of tools at your disposal to deal with someone coming after you. Most players have to slot 2 or 3 different counters just because of your ability to cloak up, and the second anyone complains about it, in come all the NBs claiming it's totally fair and justified and that anyone who doesnt slot at least 2 counters to their playstyle are scrubs who need to l2p. Just look at OP, the second anyone disagrees with him, he gets defensive and immediately starts to say it's a player issue. turnabout is fair play here, I've fought some amazing NBs who timed out their cloaks perfectly while utilizing shadow image and other mobility options to the point where you literally have no idea where they went or where they'll strike from. So obviously some people have no issues even with the skill "broken" so maybe it's a l2p issue.

There's plenty of other skills that get cancelled by a single slotted ability; DKs who use reflective shut down sorcs HARD. Sorcs depend on a timed burst involving frag, but with wings up, that frag has to be timed JUST right (if it gets thrown at all) to finish them off. Anyone attempting to revive someone or any templars using radiant can be force shocked and interrupted. Negate shuts down all magic abilities, theres tons of other examples, the game is filled with 1 slot counter abilities. And you get no sympathy from me trying to say you HAVE to slot 2 or 3 other defensive abilities, I have to have 3 slots just for shield, 1 of which is 100% unreliable (healing ward). my entire back bar is filled with defensive measures. That's just how we choose to play, we're squishy and need some help staying alive.

Lol. You bring me up again. More accusations. Are you really that salty? Let it go. You just claimed I'm defensive and telling everyone to learn to play. No, you're the one I've had to correct because you reapetedly give out false information and got upset when Multiple people have pointed it out. Notice How your arguments are all over the thread?

And who gets defensive every time someone disagrees? Go review the thread, you post more walls of text than anyone including me and IM the OP. And you're not even a nightblade. Your struggles don't represent anyone's but you. It's clear when there's a Hater in the midst. For everyone's else, let's fix cloak.

Btw, for the 2nd, 3rd time?? You can leave me out. Cloak is the topic. Not me.

Thought you said you were leaving m8. welcome back. You wanna talk salt when you storm off like a child only to come back to tell me off? lol. I'm just responding to people quoting me, it's a forum that's kinda what you do. Who said I wasn't a NB? Sorc is my main, but I do play on a NB alt. The real irony here is you going after me in some weird rant that has nothing to do with cloak, and then tell me to stay on topic.... take a chill pill and try to stay on topic.

I also never told everyone to learn to play, I said it in a response to one person. Even other NBs have stopped in to say the idea is terrible, and most just want to advocate getting the purge option back in. If your goal is to fix cloak why ask for a buff? if something is broken and needs to be fixed, I'd suggest asking for it to be fixed. Because even if it did get a buff of any kind, it'd just be a buffed broken skill instead of the reliable one most NBs really want.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

No. Cloak must keep being unreliable, bad and breakable by half the stuff people throw. It would be too OP if NB could use their signature class skill and it just worked. /s

Tbh nothing should break cloak and almost nothing should stop NB from casting it (Negate is obvious exception). Stuff like piercing mark, radiant magelight, etc should just make NB visible during cloak. Damage that is supposed to break cloak currently (like aoe) should just damage and reveal for very short time (less than 1sec).

It could even fix some cloak problems, or make them less punishing. Getting revealed for 0.5s by some bug attack is much less punishing that breaking cloak (costing like 1/3 of stamblade magicka pool).

Lol this would be obscenely op. The OP would be too. Use shade to build distance before you cloak instead of casting it in people's faces and expecting it to work perfectly.

OP? Care to elaborate how it would be OP? NB casting it would be visible and attackable same as it is now.

Also if it somehow is OP and I dont see it. I still feel like balance can be achieved by something else than unreliability.

Cloak not only resets fights, it allows the NB to control every aspect of the battle, including the pacing of the fight. That makes it inherently overpowered, as no other class has any access to anything remotely similar. Temps can heal thru damage, a sorc can stack shield, and a DK can turtle up, but all of those defensive tactics keep them right there in the fight.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Can my shields also get this treatment then? I cast it once and stack all my shields up and not have to worry about recasting them? counterplay remains the same...just hit the shields...

Solariken wrote: »

Sounds like a cool mechanic. So are you envisioning that it become a toggle? A toggle that once activated it will stop Magicka recovery and drain X Magicka per second? Or maybe only drain Magicka while moving?

The suggestion isn't to remove the duration of cloak. That remains the same. Im suggesting that for the 3 seconds it lasts that when taking AOE damage the Nightblade becomes visible to enemies with the same red outline effect allies see.

What do you suggest happens when they get hit with 1time dmg aoe?

They instantly vanish again without having to spend resources?

The term "instantly" implies it would be somehow quicker. If a nightblade hits cloak now and an AOE breaks it, whatever time it takes for the NB to recast cloak again and have it work would be the exact same. Only with the change there wouldn't be a need to recast, if it's within that 3 second duration.

1s after being hit by an aoe NB gets cloaked again. Sounds fair? Its 30% of total cloak time, plus most aoes are cheaper than cloak.

What is being suggested is essentially a 100% uptime cloak, apart from the addendum "unless you're hit with an AOE in which case ONLY the person who used the AOE can kind-of see the NB" None of that "sounds fair" to me. A huge reason people call for nerfs on the NB and cloak in particular is the 100% uptime some builds are able to get with it. Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive.

This is hardly different from me saying "My shields should last the entire 6 second duration UNLESS I'm hit with a HARD CC like dawnbreaker, frags, destructive reach (fire), or volcanic rune. Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead.

Like shields, when someone breaks cloak, you need to spam it to maintain it in order to stay alive. You spamming the ability is part of the balance. Someone breaking your stealth early and revealing you to the rest of the world is part of the balance. This idea would totally remove the "threat" of getting revealed. If the person who threw the caltrops was a fairly low level, or just not a threat, the NB could then be standing in the middle of caltrops totally undetected. In the time you're cloaked you're gaining back resources, so it'd also mean 3 full seconds of resource regen with little threat of being discovered.

This also raises a few additional mitigating questions. such as; do you still get your passives for being in stealth? If so, does that passive also count for the one person who can see you, or do you not get the passive against that one person? if you're hit with multiple AOEs could you be seen by multiple people? How much additional code has to be written to account for these random variables?

Nothing is suggesting 100% uptime. Here's a question: what happens now when a Nightblade casts cloak and it isn't interrupted? They become invisible for 3 seconds. No change there.

And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging. If you're right and that's why it was nerfed, that was a terrible decision. "Zergs" shouldn't be recieving buffs.

Btw, your follow up regarding shields is that, (and I quote) "Sometimes you have someone else in the party spamming roots and CCs to drain a sorc of their stamina and once out with shields down, someone else slams them dead." Refer to point above.

You're also campaigning that when a lowbie throws caltrops that the Zerg is able to see and kill the nightblade. Notice I've never voiced an opinion either way on this. But my question to you: if that same lowbie wore shield breaker, should everyone around him be also able to attack through shields?

Shields don't share the same hang ups as cloak. When spamming shields you're recieving the advertised amount of damage absorption each cast extending your survival. The big difference here is when Nightblades are spamming cloak it's because it isn't working. This change fixes that.

When a NB cloaks and is hit with an AOE they are discovered, and everyone around him can see him and engage, the suggested change removes the threat of being caught so people would just walk right on past even tho the NB could be standing in the middle of caltrops. Depending on your regen (which most are high) that 3 seconds can negate the cost, while you spam the ability every 3 seconds standing in an AOE hows that not 100% uptime?

2 people is a zerg now? noted. You want to 1v1, stick to dueling. The state of Cyrodiil right now and the class balancing we currently have nearly requires at least 2 people to handle certain builds. you may not like it and I may not like it but thats where we are. A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg.

See above in reference to my shield comment.

Again I mentioned no zerg. But for the record, even if the scenario IS a zerg, then what is the NB doing in the middle of it? Should they be allowed to stand in the middle of a zerg and survive? No, most NB rightfully stick to the back and assassinate people left alone, or on siege, and then cloak back into the shadows. That's fine, and with it's current "broken" status still manages to do that totally fine. To your question on shieldbreaker, have you ever been hit with a shield breaker? even on low level characters, it melts away shields leaving a sorc totally open to whoever else is around, double is true if you've got some dizzy swing spammer on you at the same time. (again only mentioning 2 people).

Shields have A LOT in common with cloak. Do you know why they went with the idea of drastically lowering the duration of a shield? It was to force a sorc to HAVE to spam them, thereby it's a constant drain on their magicka pool. Do you know why a NB has to spam cloak after being hit? for the same reason, it's supposed to drain your resource if you're using it as a means of defense.

While I agree some minor changes such as giving the purge option back, would be a decent enough idea... However what the OP suggests, or what sodantokb16_ESO was suggesting, make it overperform and you know where that leads? LOTS of people campaigning for mass nerfs across the board on NB, not just asking to reverse a change to cloak. Cloak is the primary ability people tend to have problems with, and if it gets overbuffed you're going to draw too much attention to the class and get shafted. But yeah you could enjoy the 3-5 months of pre-nerf time cloaking all day I suppose... This isnt to say it doesnt need SOME kind of buff, I'm merely suggesting to keep things realistic.

I mean... c'mon a cloak where someone could stand in the middle of a zerg, on caltrops, undetected by anyone else, pop a proxy det and destro ulti and the bombs get much much worse. Which in turn effects ALL magicka builds when the destro staff gets nerfed again or if the AOE caps get brought back, and if that happens it effects PVE players as well...and on it snowballs.

Im not sure if you just failed to understand my point or also OP's point. My point never was undetectable NB standing on caltrops. My idea was instead of breaking cloak, you reveal the NB for short time. Therefore NB in cloak standing on caltrops would be nonstop VISIBLE, but the cloak wouldnt be broken. In this scenario, it wouldnt mean very much. But imagine you activate cloak, get hit once by caltrops and immediately leave the area -> with 3sec cloak, you would enjoy invisibility in last 1-2sec still.

my points were mainly pointed to OP, but I will readdress them;

OP wants: cast cloak, you now have 3 seconds of being undetected and totally invisible. but oh no, someone saw you cloak and throws caltrops as a counter measure. OP doesn't want the cloak spell to break, and instead if they can make it out of the AOE within the 2 seconds remaining on cloak, they remain invisible and can continue running away. (Normally the cloak is broken and the NB has to flee out of the range of the AOE and recast cloak.)

This eliminates the need to recast in order to get away. DO I have it correct? (moving on assuming this is correct)

The boost it's getting is resource management and threat reduction. You dont have to worry about those caltrops because in the 2 seconds remaining you could dodge roll and remain hidden thus negate the entire purpose of throwing the caltops. So, in its current state, someone already has to waste resources spamming aoe abilities looking for a NB, but now instead of the NB having to waste resources to remain in cloak after being discovered you have to double the amount of resources wasted just to see them to target them. This also means that even when they are found from say, me spaming liquid lightning, they're found for the split second (possibly full second) the AOE is touching them and then it's back to not being able to see or target them. (essentially for free) Its hardly even enough time to hit them with any CC. So I'd have to spam AOEs to not only find you but also apply pressure to keep you out of stealth, and other than the destruction staff ulti, what AOE has enough power to kill a NB on its own? Thats all anyone would be able to hit them with. and THAT to me doesn't seem fair. It'd be like if I wanted my shields to only take magic damage in order to break them, stam users would just have to hope there was a magic user around or wait the 6 seconds for them to disappear but...oh i reapplied them...

What you should be asking for in my opinion, is something like Shadow image being changed so it doesn't summon a shadow but rather you leave a mark on the ground you can teleport back to for a duration within a certain range. Getting attacked with a bow automatically makes players think "where it coming from" and when they see the shadow image they KNOW a nightblade can teleport to that point. Removing that aspect of it creates a point that really, only the NB knows about, and can safely teleport back to within a certain limited range. At least with that if you're discovered via caltrops, instead of having to spam dodge roll and cloak, you'd hit your teleport and not be in the AOE anymore at all. Most likely back at a safe location, and can cloak again without any issues.

Dodgerolling already removes cloak. Also lol at your examples. Cloak is class skill with many counters already. Saying it is unfair you just wasted ***load of stamina on caltrops to reveal them and they escaped the range or that your spamming of liquid lighting only revealed them for 1sec instead of breaking their class skill says more about you. Your shield argument is exaggerated, if anything, imagine skills that could strip you of 100% shield with single cast. There are literally skill that make cloak impossible to use. There is nothing even slightly comparable to it.

Also 1sec is enough for any gapcloser and any instant CC. Again, sounds more like problem of your desired playstyle.

Anyway, your second point(shadow image) is interesting. But cloak is buggy mess and no amount of buffs and changes to other NB skills make it better. Reliability is very important. Cloak does not have it. Nothing comes even close to how cloaking feels like.

I never said the skill in its current state was unfair, I said adding the additional ability to utilize any excess time that would have been left over to instantly go back into a cloak WOULD be unfair. I have no problem with it, in it's current state, but it sounds like you're trying to discredit me and my argument by suggesting that because I have issue dealing with NB that I would stand in the way of a buff. I'd say stick to attacking the argument, and not the person. Having wasted magicka or stamina just to reveal a target for a single second and they have the ability to utilize what is essentially a free cloak due to the duration continuing sounds unfair. If you believe that it 100% totally fine, I would like to hear your thoughts as to why. I suppose I could also claim that because you're a NB you WANT the skill to be OP....

You specify ANY gap closer, and any INSTANT CC, I'd again like to hear some specifics on this, because streak can break a cloak, but ball lightning sure can't, both Frags and javelin while it's traveling (2 major class CC abilities) can totally just "miss" because cloak was cast mid flight. Im not saying there's anything right or wrong there, I'm saying theres clearly staple moves that are not afforded a single second in order to deal with damage or perform their CC. The common come-back here is of course "well use a different skill that CAN counter it then, l2p issue" to which at least in this instance I can say "well in cloaks current state those moves have no problems, and the change suggested would cause them so I'd say we stick with NOT changing it and avoid unnecessary work on top of re-balancing issues."

Reliability IS important, however I'm saying that it's the focus on the one skill that's going to cause problems. It's unreliability isn't going to be fixed thru buffing it and opening the skill up to abuse. If it starts to over perform because a buff was meant to offset some bug or something, it's going to cause more problems then it fixes. We should be looking at skills that are typically skipped over and asking what needs to be done to make them viable, as well as assist the NB with some quality of life adjustments.

Sorry, but your post literally reads like notes of someone that has never played nightblade, nor any other class/build that has more than bad AoE spell to spam.
You literally say you lack any (of many) better means to reveal and fight nightblade and call it unfair, that their main skill would be better versus your bad skill. Cloak is 1/3 or stamblades magicka and you call it unfair you couldnt spam cheap aoe skill of resource of your choosing to break it.
FOr CC/gap closer, what specific you need. It just again looks like you have no idea how stuff works. Cant speak about ball lightning because my sorc uses streak and every sorc that targeted my NB too. But cloaking during the flight or CC obviously misses, but hey guess what, you again bring worst possible scenario for catching NB (being at long range), worst possible CC skill (channeled/delayed or slow moving). So let me get it straight, your complain about OP comes from collection of "worst possible vs cloak" that with current cloak still works, that speak more about how stupidly bad current cloak is.

For the last part. Lol, no. If making cloak realiable would make it OP against the least capable players with the worst possible skills, then its actually what it is supposed to be. It is like complaining about shields while you run single target crit/penetration setup and someone wants to make your cheap skill that removes shield to make them crittable for 1sec.

What a surprise, you have NO argument other than to suggest I somehow have no idea what Im talking about and am a bad player. I thought we went over this? Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run. you just want your easy reset button to get a buff so you can go back to feeling OP. You were clearly looking for an echo chamber of people hailing you as some sort of great prophet for suggesting that cloak needs a buff, without any concern for balance or the class as a whole.

You literally must not have read what I said.... at all... I never said I don't currently have a better means to reveal, theres plenty, quote me where I specifically state that I have no better means to counter cloak. Or that I somehow said that because there wasnt a means to reveal them, that THATS why I'm saying it's unfair. Seriously did you just skim what I wrote and then decided to reply with sarcasm? But for the record IF cloak is indeed your MAIN skill I'd say you're in no position to say if MY skill if bad or not.

I again never mentioned anything baout stam builds, nor did I mention specifically it was unfair currently having to spam AOEs to find a NB, WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID WAS: If you were to implement the change where you keep the cloak up for its full duration, that it would be viewed as unfair because the balance of resource management shifts from the NB to the opponent. If you're being pressured you shouldn't get to just coast on a FREE 1-2 seconds of additional cloak time. Name 1 other skill that does this.

I like that I ask for examples and you just totally ignore it.. I assume because you have none... How hard is it to have a discussion? I was trying to be nice and civil here, trying to get a back and forth going, and yet all you can do is attack my character my alleged skill, and provide no evidence or specifics on literally anything you're talking about. So if you think I have no idea how things work, why not explain it then? Why is it your only option is to just be hostile? THAT is the attitude of someone who has no idea what they're talking about and further proves the point you are in fact just a NB trying to get a skill to OP status. I have at least provided scenarios and examples for my points what have you brought? I have plenty of examples but you apparently dont read them anyway... at least I've mentioned mine, I have yet to see a single one of yours.

So again you either didn't read or have no idea what you're talking about... ZOS doesnt just "fix" bugs... I have yet to see a skill that glitches go from broken to 100% fixed and working. What they do is alter the skill so that it better fits with the current build of the game and call it a fix. MY POINT if you had been paying attention... was on the side of the nB suggesting that if you're asking for the buff of the one skill, and specifically the buffs you're asking for, enjoy having that buff for 3 months or so, then witness as the forums flood with QQ nerf NB posts all over again like the days before DB dropped. I suggested keeping things realistic OR better yet, figure out what other minor quality of life changes could be made instead of using cloak as a crutch and acting like its the only option available to you for defense. Shouldn't the idea that cloak IS your only option be the real focus?

So by all means, go back to crying that your class is broken because you can be revealed while spamming cloak. keep coming up with other new and wild ideas on how to "fix" it by making it overperform, put the nerf spotlight back on the class... I'll be talking to the NB who actually care for the class and are willing to discuss other options that would benefit the class while not directly altering balance in such drastic and comical ways.

You just threw me into an argument you're having with someone else. Then you went on to claim what I don't know. While accusing someone else of questioning your character. A bit of irony there. (And again much of it off topic)

Secondly, you've given examples to support your anti-cloak fix campaign that were uniformed. Remember saying cloak, dodge roll and still being cloaked? Examples like those is where you lose credibility as one who doesn't know the mechanics. And you ignore when thats addressed.

Anyways, your claim now is that the change is unfair because the balance of resource shifts from nb to opponent. This again is an uninformed statement. For starters detect pots exist and all uses of cloak vs them are wasted. Additionally 1 cast of caltrops and the nb can cast cloak repeatedly before and after the change and will not be invisible. To cast and not be invisible will always work against the NB. That holds true with the change.

And to answer your question with a question: How is the NB getting free cloak time if pressured? When all counter pressure before and after the change reveal the night blade so invisibility doesnt apply. Unlike Shields, where you can be pressured but if you have shield left you will have it for the remaining duration. (No anti-shield pots either)

Lastly, I hope I answered your question and with examples. But please, keep me out of your personal disputes/arguments that have nothing to do with the topic. You could've left the OP out of this one.

You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you. HIS argument involved saying NOTHING SHOULD BREAK CLOAK, but acting under the assumption of your own change, dodge roll breaqks the cloak but IN THE SCENARIO OF YOUR OWN CHANGE BEING IMPLEMENTED wouldn't having 1-2 extra seconds of cloak AFTER a dodge roll just recast it for you? Thats what you kept saying your change would do, So it isnt that I dont understand how cloak works, I understand it quite well, all those scenario examples involve "the given" being the change implemented. Im sorry if you didnt fully understand that part but no where in there do I suggest you can currently dodgeroll while cloaked and be fine. Furhtermore, you'rte the OP with the initial idea, of course you're going to get referenced.

It's not my claim NOW it's BEEN my claim if you actually read what I wrote. When a NB is put on the defense, it's on the NB to manage THEIR resources for escaping and mitigating damage. (just like it is for anyone) If that means using potions for more resources, spamming an ability to it remains consistent, or whatever else you need to do. YOUR change affords any unused time as a free cast of the ability even tho it had already been broken. That removes one of the resource management steps entirely and affords you the ability to escape MUCH easier under pressure, which in turns forces your opponent to have to spam even more abilities to not just find you but also keep you out of stealth due to your constant free recasts. Show me any other ability that does this. We can start from there.

Again you're the OP its YOUR argument being discussed, and Im not the one going off topic I'm defending my own statements. Thats how an argument/discussion work. I'm not the one who brought up zergs at all, I'm not the one who started to personally attack people, I said my piece and the 2 of you have dont nothing to but mock, instead of having the conversation you yourself wanted to have.

You start with:

"Neither you or the OP have ANY idea what balance even is or what minor changes can effect in the long run.

Then you follow up with:

"You keep responding to arguments and comments not even meant for you."

What other OP were you referring to if not me?


And to answer your question, no. The suggestion is not for the ability to ever be recasted. The change is instead of aoe damage breaking the ability, it renders the night blade visible. Once the nb is out of range of the damage, IF the cloak ability has time remaining the invisibility would take effect for the rest. The invisible effect resuming is NOT the ability being recast. To recast the ability would mean to reset the duration. That's not what's suggested here. Its still 3 seconds.

Also under no circumstance did I nor am suggesting the night blade be able to do actions not currently allowed in stealth. (I.E. dodge roll) From the beginning the only thing different is damage revealing the nb but not ending the ability. That's literally it. So no, none of the counterplay would be changed. No extra spamming especially considering there's no need to spam now. Again that's your technique.

Well firstly, you were responding to and quoteing me on things, when I had a direct quote of someone else, the fact that I referenced you was based on your OP, suggestions, and the person I was speaking to adding to those suggestions.

semantics, by "recast" I meant "taking advantage of the remaining time" and tried to condense it down to a single word I didn't mean to imply the duration is also reset. That is a miscommunication on my part I will take full responsibility for. Again, so we're clear, I get that all you're doing is attempting to take advantage of time remaining on the ability if some is left, but MY point is, that in doing so you're getting "something for nothing". The AOE already broke your cloak, if you want it again recast it. If my shield breaks, I recast it, it doesn't reappear for 2 seconds just because there was 2 seconds remaining on the timer. THAT does effect counterplay. If it didnt effect counterply, why even ask for it?

That isnt MY technique, that's YOUR example. I think this is where the confusion lies between us, where you think that's how I try to find NBs, fail, and now want them nerfed or to stay nerfed. YOU are the one who are using AOE as an example I am responding to it using the same example. But for the record, again, yes this does effect counterplay on AOEs specifically. If I forgo slotting or using magelight, or revealing flare, and instead utilize an AOE i have on my bar (caltrops, liquidlightning, ele ring) With your change; if you cast cloak and I hit you with an AOE to break it, it's only "down" for a split second before you immediately go back into invisibility (unless standing in a continuous AOE) In our current system YOU have to pay to recast in order to stay alive, with your change, there is no recast, no payment made, you just go back to invisible for 1-2 remaining seconds. Meaning the opponent has to hit you again (paying with their resources) So again, you are shifting the resource management to the opponent, as they HAVE to spam in order to keep pressure on you. At least when you have to recast it, I know I'm draining your resources when pressuring you, which is a valid strategy.

I initially responded to you because you said that what was suggested was 100% uptime on cloak. That was false. I didnt want the thread to be derailed by misinformation.

As for counterplay, nothing changes for the enemy facing the NB. If the enemy reveals the NB, they are free to burst them down. This change doesn't effect that scenario. Fact. The same strats to kill a NB still apply. THATS what counterplay is an hasn't changed.

The biggest impact this change will have is that all the faulty things that are breaking cloak, that aren't meant to be, won't cost the NB twice within 3 seconds.

You're campaigning in hopes that NB will still be wasting resources on a failing/faulty ability. This will fix that.


Btw, Ill quote you on this:
" A NB is spamming their cloak and trying to just snipe spam their way to easy kills, fine, I'll spam liquid lightning till we find them, and my DK friend here can then fossilize and handle the rest. That's a team dynamic, not a zerg."

Spamming is what you said you will do. Aoe was my example. Spamming is a technique. So yea, it is yours. No confusion on my end.

So, if YOU choose to spam an AOE to find a NB, YOU are the reason resources favor your opponent. That's true before and after the suggested change. (btw, zerg means to use numbers instead of skill to beat an opponent.)

How is it you can suggest 1-2 seconds of free invis, after someone broke the skill with an AOE and still try and claim that it doesnt effect counterplay? Your skill is broken, and you getting a free recast for the remaining duration to you has NO effect whatsoever on the counterplay at all? Again; It'd be no different than my shields auto re-applying for remaining time after being broken. Explain that to me.

Here is, again, YOU said AOE, so am I supposed to reference magelight in my example scenario? Does that example make as much sense if I say "I'll streak over and drop 3 revealing flares to find him"? No, because that is an existing counterplay that you werent talking about. THAT would be weird If you mention AOE damage abilities breaking cloak and I'm over here talking about spamming magelight. Noted tho, I'll be sure to include that next time. Furthermore Here's you;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"And what you're suggesting by "using the people around you" to kill 1 nightblade is referred to as zerging."

I made no mention of numbers, or groups or anything in my initial post. This is you projecting that I meant a zerg, Then you later go on to accuse me of derailing by mentioning Zergs;

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

"Nothing you're saying in this post has anything to do with the suggested change to cloak. You're jumping from zergs, to bombs, to AOE caps, to why shields were nerfed and literally not one point regarding what has been suggested."

YOU are the one who mentioned Zergs, not me, It wasnt until you brought it up that I had to talk about them AT ALL. Again 2 people is not a zerg. I have never met anyone who has ever seen 2 players together and claimed a zerg was on the way. I've never heard of anyone 1v2ing and saying they took on a zerg and won. That might be YOUR definition of a zerg, but you should at least come to terms with it being in the minority of what is vastly considered the "norm".

You are campaigning for an ability to vastly over-perform, and open the skill up to additional abuse.

I made certain I answered your questions each go round but your posts have little to nothing to do with the OP.
You use bad techniques as a basis to judge the skill (current and after change) and in defense you go in circles defending yourself. Debates not even addressing the suggestion.

This is you:

"Part of counter play within PVP is using the other people around you, so the whole point of 1 person wasting resources spamming AOEs looking for the cloaked NB is so that once they're found someone else can then go on the direct offensive."

And I simply informed you that this describes zerging. More importantly it has NOTHING to do with the change. I never suggested cloak be changed so that only enemy damage the NB can see them. I simply said the NB becomes visible.
But that doesn't register with you. You'd rather argue that you made no mention of numbers or groups. Yes. You did, but who cares? Its besides the point. The point is that isn't the suggestion.

And now your going right back to a free recast.. See..Circles. The ability still costs.

But since you asked me to explain: Shields don't get broken. They absorb X amount of damage. If that amount of damage is absorbed than your shield worked. It was worth the cost. If it were to reapply than that means double the amount of damage absorbable when it already worked the first time. Get it? Meaning it'd work twice. And btw, shields last from 6 - 10 seconds.

Cloak however costs resources when it fails in situations it's intended to work. Meaning all cost, but no effect. Allowing the ability 3 seconds alleviates the cost for nothing while still allowing all counters to work. Win/Win. The 3 second duration maintains the balance.

If anyone is taking this conversation in circles it's definitely you. I can't even believe I have to keep explaining this... Your change is specific to AOE damage breaking cloak... it makes no sense if any example I mention doesnt involve AOE damage. I wasnt describing a zerg, at all, in any sense of the word. If that's what you took away from it, you didnt read it. Your change is specific to AOE damage and one of the counterplay measures to dealing with a cloak spammer is to spam AOEs. What I describe is the scenario you are looking to alter. No number mentioned, and at best you could say 2 people as I only mention 1 other person. But the number is largely irrelevant, remove the lines "other people around you", "someone else" it's just 1 person spamming an AOE looking for a NB wasting resources. Its the same scenario, you're just fixating on the "zerg" part of it as some means to discredit it, or dismiss it entirely. Try answering the question.

Your OP: "Cloak when activated can no longer be" deactivated." When taking AOE damage while cloaked the NBs red tint can now be visible to the attacking enemy the same way it is to an ally. But the ability is still active. Once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they are no longer visible to enemies if the ability is still active."

Further on you say "This change will enable Nightblades the ability to cast cloak once and not be required to repeat cast an ability they've already spent resources on. Aside from that counter play remains largely the same."

You are specifically saying AOE damage, and mentioning not "wasting" resources. both points I've addressed directly. You are cutting a resource cost, still getting the benefit, and losing pressure/threat. Your change is specifically asking for free resources while claiming everything stays the same, that's not how change works. This is where I said You have no idea about balance.

Current status:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. Reapply cloak while leaving AOE (obviously once you are OUT of the AOE)
6. Lose the magicka cost a second time.
7. Get hit with second AOE

Balance of power 2-2 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast twice)

With your change implemented:

1. Cast Cloak
2. Lose the magicka cost
3. Get hit with AOE
4. Cloak breaks
5. leave the AOE
6. Cloak goes back up for any remaining time
7. no second lose of magicka
8. Get hit with second AOE

balance of power 2-1 (AOE cast twice, cloak cast once, same result)

One is clearly being pressured, and forced to use resources, the other is facing a minor inconvenience. This doesn't even begin to address, the abuse that could be exploited from the fact in the 3 seconds you would have most likely already got back the magicka spent on the skill. This also effects the lower level players, who may not have unlocked magelight or revealing flare, maybe they only have AOEs to utilize. This punishes their resource management. You keep trying to discredit me, while making accusations that I'm against the NB, when I've made other alternative suggestions on what to focus on, I've stated numerous times I dont want to see the class nerfed, and never once insinuated anything on your preferred playstyle. This is basic stuff here, showing you there is an obvious shift in resource management, you yourself admit it's for the benefit of your own resources, and yet you still just try to attack the person and not the argument.

Hi. You type a lot.

This change is NOT specific to AOE damage. That was 1 example. This change is about cloak. Perhaps you haven't followed the thread but it's been pointed out multiple times that cloak is buggy and often fails to work when it should. This change addresses the issue of night blades using resources and cloak not activating and havIng to spend extra resources. Did you miss that?

Again, if resources are spent for a 3 second cloak, and the NB is damaged for the 1st second, moves away and has cloak for 2 seconds, then the NB spent full cost for cloak and only got 2 seconds worth. You on the other hand keep implying they get a free cast. Lol. No.

I'll dead this cycle that your in alone. I'm out. It's unproductive. But all counters still work. Fact. You just want NB to waste resources because you want an advantage. Sorry, "that extra 1-2 seconds exploit, lower level, etc." fails to make any point. As if having to extra cast cloak doesn't effect lower level NB. Opps. Didn't mean to add that. Im out again.

What are you even on about here? Firstly, none of your OP mentions any other examples, and specifies AOE damage, which I bolded for emphasis. You even stated everything else stays the same. So where are the other examples? This isnt about cloak being broken and you "fixing" it. It's all about you trying to buff a skill, call it a"fix" and try and act like everything is the same and normal. This change does NOTHING to address cloak "not activating" that's an entirely separate issue altogether. If it didnt "work" on the first cast, how is a reapply once out of an AOE going to suddenly MAKE it work? You're off the rails at this point. You dont even know your own OP... you literally can't make an argument without attacking me directly.

If you cast it, and I break your cast with AOE damage, that cost is null and void. you paid for the attempt to cloak, and my AOE broke that, you dont get to suddenly get a second chance at it just because your timing was off, or my timing was better. you attempted to use a skill and I utilized one of it's counters, get over it, full stop. Thats the point of the counter. Just because you failed to grasp the concept of someone at a lower level being affected by your "fix" doesn't invalidate the point. it just means you dont understand, and like most who just don't understand you just lash out blindly. Think what you want about me, I've already mentioned several times Im not trying to keep any NB down, but if you need to think that to feel better, or like you're a champion for the class, go right ahead. You have yet to address any of my points, and simply dismiss them without explanation. It's all clearly there.

You must be trolling, right?

I don't see how a NB that recast cloak each 1 sec is gonna affect your attack vs one who doesn't spam it again after you landed an AoE, the playing style on the attacker remains the same: if I see the NB with the AoE, I use single target skills.

The AoE breaks cloak AND do dmg. That's a double penalty and affects 2 resources: Health and magicka. Tell me, besides specific poisons, what other skill in this game favors that double penalty? Even healing mitigates one of them when using the other. Cloak no.

That's unfair. A skill meant to be a signature class skill should not avoid that double penalty. What if attacking a sorc with a shield up with a single target dmg (no mater if is a light attack) puts his shield down, no matter it is just 1 point dmg? What if just hitting a DK removes talons or petrify? What if just using an AoE against a templar prevents him healing for 3 secs?

Did you skip my post on #63? it details quite nicely how it effects the attacker. It's also against forums rules to suggest I am trolling, so be careful how you go throwing that around. No matter what you do, it's sacrificing SOME form of resource. If I spam streak to get away I'm wasting magicka for mobility and getting hit for damage from anyhting long range. If I'm hit with fossilize, I'm rooted and CC'd AND taking damage AND wasting magicka spamming shields to stay alive AND wasting what little stamina I have to attempt to break free and dodge roll. But that's a counter to my mobility and I accept that. Just as AOES are a counter to NBs becoming completely untargetable. The attacker spamming the AOE is also at the disadvantage of having to GUESS where the NB MIGHT be.

Hitting a sorc with a single light attack isnt the counter to shields. CCing them is the counter, or shieldbreaker, or the CP star, or poisons. AOE IS the counter to cloak. and it's specifically what the OP wants to change. That is the topic at hand, so if you'd like to discuss the various counters and "fairness" of other abilities and classes we will have to go elsewhere as the OP dislikes what he considers off topic discussion.

- When you spamm streak you are sing your skill to avoid melee dmg and you avoid it.
- When you cast a shield in middle of talons you are using your magicka to mitigate some dmg
- When you are at the range of an AoE while cloaked, o matter what you do, the skill is cancelled even if you spam it and you do receive damage. And you think that's fair.

Regarding the example I used to, at least, make you understand why it is unfair that AoE BREAK cloak:
1. CC is a counter to every single playing style in this game
2. Shieldbreaker is a specific set that conditionates the playig style of who's wearing it, same as CP
3. Poison are not mandatory. If you want to have access to them, you need gold or enough time to gather material

Finally, what the OP is suggesting is this: AOE STILL DO DMG AND MAKES YOU VISIBLE WHEN CLOAKED, The thing is that, if you walk away from the AoE within the duration of cloak, you should be cloaked again, respecting the tooltip. So, the AoE counter to cloak remains untouched because it still it reveals the cloaked char within the AoE range. From the attacker PoV nothing's changed.
From the cloak user there's a logical improvement: don't waste you magicka spamming a skill that's useless after you have been hit by an AoE and just make it more useful.

I understand you and the OP perfectly fine, I think you're misunderstanding me, or perhaps just refuse to see my side of things.

1. CC is a counter to nearly every single playing style in the game, except to a cloaked NB
2. Shieldbreaker is specific but it's still a counter. I dont want to waste time, money, and resources on detect pots but I do it because it's a counter to cloak specifically.
3. Poisons are just about mandatory in PVP. Just from my personal testing, I was able to use 26 hardened wards in a row before I ran out of resources, stick 1 poison proc and it drops to 14 with it wearing off after around 10. being continuously attacked and the poison reapplying, I'm down to 6-10. If you dont WANT to use poisons, that's on you, but it's clearly a full counter to the playstyle.

I get the AOE still does damage, that's not the part I take issue with. Walking away from the AOE and getting the rest of your invisibility IS what I take issue with. I used my resource to cancel yours. It revealed your location and now you have to use it again if you want to remain hidden. Getting discovered and then moving slightly to the left and immediately going back into stealth, becoming untargetable without repaying for the resource isnt fair. You want to alter the ONE thing that can hit you in such a way that it's easier for you to avoid anything additional happening. Again read #63, even tho the NB is revealed, sidestep out of AOE and you're back to being untargetable for no additional cost to you. Whereas in the current state even if I can't target you (due to you recasting cloak) I know you're being pressured into using more of your resources. It's very clear in basic numbers right there in front of you that the change does alter and effect counterplay.

How do I cancel your streak? Because if you spend 3k magicka using it, the result is that you are teleported, right?

Currently there's a bug related to streak in which you spend magicka in certain locations but you get rooted. That's unfair and should be changed.

Now, think about the same, but in the case of cloak; why should a cloak user be punished for being revealed, to recast the skill after the AoE hit him? It makes no sense. Not even rooting a sorc can prevent him for streaking and we are all OK with that.

Thing about this, if you are in middle of a EOTS, what most people do is to dodge roll to avoid the dmg and prevent incoming single target skill through evasion. That's a perfectly valid skill and no one complains about it. Now think about dodge rolling outside the EOTS (or any other AoE skill) AND being targeteable for single target not chanelled skills. If ZoS implement that, people would go NUTS.

What happens to cloak is similar to the the second case but with every kind of attack. Cloak does not offer anything else beyond being invisible (maybe a guaranteed crit and a lame buff) .

At the end, you are putting the player that reveals the cloaked NB in an excelent position for counter just by sloting one skill, but you are not giving anything to the NB who is forced to run 2 or 3 other defensive skills to cope with the countergank. So the NBs bar ends up filled with heals, CCs and buffs, besides cloak, and one offensive skill.

Then people ask why the only playing style NBs use is ganking...

Yes there's a couple of bugs with streak, only difference here is that I'm not asking that it get buffed in order to offset the glitch. I'm waiting for them to just fix it. If you want to cancel it, negate is a great way, a CC like destructive reach, stone fist, javelin...are also good the list goes on. Sometimes the streak goes into a hill head-on and you don't go anywhere because of a slight incline, you just reposition yourself and try again, it's not that big of a deal. Is it frustrating? sure, but again it doesn't deserve a buff to offset that.

c'mon, you can't be serious here... The current status doesn't put the attacker in a better position than the NB, at all. A NB can control the entire fight and cloak is a big part of the "how" in how they do that. Between fear (best CC in the game) and cloak, you have plenty of tools at your disposal to deal with someone coming after you. Most players have to slot 2 or 3 different counters just because of your ability to cloak up, and the second anyone complains about it, in come all the NBs claiming it's totally fair and justified and that anyone who doesnt slot at least 2 counters to their playstyle are scrubs who need to l2p. Just look at OP, the second anyone disagrees with him, he gets defensive and immediately starts to say it's a player issue. turnabout is fair play here, I've fought some amazing NBs who timed out their cloaks perfectly while utilizing shadow image and other mobility options to the point where you literally have no idea where they went or where they'll strike from. So obviously some people have no issues even with the skill "broken" so maybe it's a l2p issue.

There's plenty of other skills that get cancelled by a single slotted ability; DKs who use reflective shut down sorcs HARD. Sorcs depend on a timed burst involving frag, but with wings up, that frag has to be timed JUST right (if it gets thrown at all) to finish them off. Anyone attempting to revive someone or any templars using radiant can be force shocked and interrupted. Negate shuts down all magic abilities, theres tons of other examples, the game is filled with 1 slot counter abilities. And you get no sympathy from me trying to say you HAVE to slot 2 or 3 other defensive abilities, I have to have 3 slots just for shield, 1 of which is 100% unreliable (healing ward). my entire back bar is filled with defensive measures. That's just how we choose to play, we're squishy and need some help staying alive.

Lol. You bring me up again. More accusations. Are you really that salty? Let it go. You just claimed I'm defensive and telling everyone to learn to play. No, you're the one I've had to correct because you reapetedly give out false information and got upset when Multiple people have pointed it out. Notice How your arguments are all over the thread?

And who gets defensive every time someone disagrees? Go review the thread, you post more walls of text than anyone including me and IM the OP. And you're not even a nightblade. Your struggles don't represent anyone's but you. It's clear when there's a Hater in the midst. For everyone's else, let's fix cloak.

Btw, for the 2nd, 3rd time?? You can leave me out. Cloak is the topic. Not me.

Thought you said you were leaving m8. welcome back. You wanna talk salt when you storm off like a child only to come back to tell me off? lol. I'm just responding to people quoting me, it's a forum that's kinda what you do. Who said I wasn't a NB? Sorc is my main, but I do play on a NB alt. The real irony here is you going after me in some weird rant that has nothing to do with cloak, and then tell me to stay on topic.... take a chill pill and try to stay on topic.

I also never told everyone to learn to play, I said it in a response to one person. Even other NBs have stopped in to say the idea is terrible, and most just want to advocate getting the purge option back in. If your goal is to fix cloak why ask for a buff? if something is broken and needs to be fixed, I'd suggest asking for it to be fixed. Because even if it did get a buff of any kind, it'd just be a buffed broken skill instead of the reliable one most NBs really want.

Storm off? like a child? You mean going offline and onto real life? That's a good thing sir. Lol. Btw, I only said I was out, referring to going in circles with you. Productive discussion with everyone else has been fine. I actually have nothing against you personally, but You've taken offense so insults and accusations are your go to. Notice how you still manage to bring me up With insults when responding to Xvorg?

Btw, you're quote. "I also never told everyone to learn to play, I said it in a response to one person." You contradicted yourself when I never accused you of that anyway. Shrug..

Here, let me summarize just to show you how petty this is:

I suggested a change to cloak that would prevent unintended breakages, yet still allow EVERY counter to still work and break invis. Just make cloak a 3 sec ability that loses invis while damaged. But lasts for 3 seconds.

You're claiming that if NB arent wasting resources spaming cloak multiple times within 3 seconds due to it breaking they're too strong/OP/etc. Since counter play is the same, you're view is based on you facing NBs. They'll be what they already are...... to you.


I noticed that and moved on.