PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

NBrookus · February 2017

Armitas wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wings still reflects:

-Poison Arrow
-Snipe
-Dark Flare
-Crystal Frags
-Stone Fist

And probably a lot more that I'm forgetting. All of these skills, all of them, are far more dangerous than Crushing Shock. If arguably the weakest skill in that bunch manages to outright break the viability of wings for you, then I suppose you are being far too dramatic.

I removed the minor ones and just keep the ones that make wings worth slotting and the ones I wanted to comment on. (I'm speaking of small engagements, not tanking a zerg)
Poison injection can be 100% animation cancelled and invisible to reactive wings. There is no reflecting it against an active opponent.

No one uses snipe in a 1v1 or in a rotation. It's used before a gank, and stealth shots do not reflect.

Dark Flare is worth slotting but it doesn't protect from the defile.

Crystal frags is worth slotting for but it's hit or miss on reflect. Most of the time it is cast point blank, or nested with CC.

Stone fist is too fast now for reactive wings, so is javelin. (the speed was increased by 20%)

You have specific instances where it's worth slotting, but specific instances are the sole privilege of Dueling, not open world. It is no longer worth the slot for open world (aside from the do nothing tank builds). Open world is where we have suffered over the past year.

I'm going to add Overload to that list. There aren't many overload spamming sorcs in Cyro, but most of the ones that do will kill themselves on Wings.

Sugaroverdose · February 2017

ManDraKE wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Did i said that this vid is about incredibly skilful 1vX in 1T? I believe that i didn't, fact is - crushing shock is powerfull enough to kill someone by it's own even without waving.

no is not lol

Deeply argumented point of view, thank you for participation.

what argument do you want? unless your are fighthing a underleveled-undergeared dude, you won't kill it with crushing shock. I can outheal crushing shock spam just with vigor ticks

On magdk you have no vigor and zero sustain so you'll get out of magicka even with new cDB trying to get through mines and outheal crushing shock damage.

Vigor is overpowered at least by 2x anyway.

you have a serious case of L2P if your problem is crushing shock and mines lol.
mDK bad sustain? i play a stamplar too, tell me about bad sustain LOL.

Redguard in heavy=1 fHA to get 1/4 stamina, tell me more about sustain.

Sugaroverdose · February 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wings still reflects:

-Poison Arrow
-Snipe
-Dark Flare
-Crystal Frags
-Stone Fist

And probably a lot more that I'm forgetting. All of these skills, all of them, are far more dangerous than Crushing Shock. If arguably the weakest skill in that bunch manages to outright break the viability of wings for you, then I suppose you are being far too dramatic.

I removed the minor ones and just keep the ones that make wings worth slotting and the ones I wanted to comment on. (I'm speaking of small engagements, not tanking a zerg)
Poison injection can be 100% animation cancelled and invisible to reactive wings. There is no reflecting it against an active opponent.

No one uses snipe in a 1v1 or in a rotation. It's used before a gank, and stealth shots do not reflect.

Dark Flare is worth slotting but it doesn't protect from the defile.

Crystal frags is worth slotting for but it's hit or miss on reflect. Most of the time it is cast point blank, or nested with CC.

Stone fist is too fast now for reactive wings, so is javelin. (the speed was increased by 20%)

You have specific instances where it's worth slotting, but specific instances are the sole privilege of Dueling, not open world. It is no longer worth the slot for open world (aside from the do nothing tank builds). Open world is where we have suffered over the past year.

I'm going to add Overload to that list. There aren't many overload spamming sorcs in Cyro, but most of the ones that do will kill themselves on Wings.

1.5k free AP per day or two

BlackMadara · February 2017

@MaxwellC We all know the reason people state that stam DK has great resource management, in heavy or medium, is because of battle roar and helping hands. I wanted to see how much sustain that actually gives someone though.

I assumed a 30k max stamina set up with 600 mag regen for a medium set up. This is just a model set up to very roughly calculate the regen for a set up with little extra mag regen and no mag cost reduction.

Helping hands, if using igneous shield, would give 1500 stamina for 4050 magicka. If only used when you have recovered the 4050 magicka with 600 mag regen, you can use it every 13.5 seconds, for 111 stam per second. That's 222 regen.

Battle roar's equation, I believe, is .00175 x ult cost x max stam. So using DB on cd (unrealistic, I know) gives 6562 stam every 42 seconds (assuming 3 ult per second) which is 156 stam per second, or 312 regen.

Together, that's 535 extra stam regen. If an optimal stam NB set up is 2000 stam regen, then a DK could, theoretically, run 1500.

A heavy dk with more magicka available, minor heroism, and max stamina food would receive more of course.

This is just mathematical, and a rough calculation at that. I was bored on the toilet.

Ps. Apologies if you weren't the one arguing against the stam DK resource management claim

MaxwellC · February 2017

@BlackMadara
No the other guy assumed like he always does since he's the god of all DKs that I'm having trouble with stam regen in medium armor and heavy is the way to go when I would have more sustain on a medium build due to reduction. Also a Heavy DK to assume he/she is using minor heroism while a medium DK isn't well that's just not good to do.

Also stamina is actually related to around 21-25 per ultimate and a stam DK most likely doesn't use anything higher than 250 (since they'd most likely use corrosive armor). The patch note states that the cost will now be numerically represented instead of stated as 70% of your ultimate (which isn't what it was to begin with).

Also not sure what you mean by DB (Dragon's blood) if so not sure how that equates to giving more stam unless you're talking about stam recovery.

pieratsos · February 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos Stop being condescending seriously, like I said before those sustain issues are due to different scenarios if I get into a fight and get out that's a whole different thing. HA doesn't save you people need to stop thinking it does, sure you can take more damage but that doesn't mean you can out sustain someone who's built to do so. If I CC you and keep CCing you well guess what you're going to burn through stamina and yes people in HA due dodge roll please stop assuming that they do not. Open world Heavy armor doesn't work on a Stam DK since you're missing out on damage and your sustain is far worse in comparison to a medium armor stam dk or a sorc who can ignore it with dark deal.

I wanted to duel you because I wanted to see if I can gain a perspective since I'm trying to give some leeway but yet again you're attitude is what really needs to be checked. You act like you're some knowledgeable person on the DK class when reading through your posts with other players... well that says otherwise. I wouldn't duel you on my Mag DK in the first place if I was talking about my Stam DK so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

A fleeing scenario doesn't always happen, I can 1vX pretty easily depending on who I'm facing. If I'm facing two incredibly offensive players then opening myself to use fossilize more often would aid me in that.

Heavy armor doesn't matter in PvP because most players can still do decent damage through it depending on their penetration, sure that means medium players will get hit harder but we can counter some of that by being more offensive as a push back and dodge/break free more often than a HA build can.

Heavy armor will not save you in PvP open world please stop assuming it does. I even presented a clip of me using medium armor and even after 5+ near maxed CP players gang up on me with radiant hitting me I was still able to get away. HA wise I wouldn't be able to keep running out dodge rolling which does save you in PvP. HA only works so well when you're in a duel or small scale PvP vs another small scaled PvP scenario. It doesn't work with you just riding around in cyrodiil by yourself, I play solo PvP all the time and have used heavy armor builds to troll people since I played a HA stam DK way way back then (Due to aesthetic reasons lol).

Last time. Regen isn't a issue on a medium armor based build and HA doesn't give you more resources than someone in medium armor. If you rock HA and kill off some of your offensive glyphs for stamina reduction I am more than certain that nearly equals what a person would wear in medium armor since it's around 15% reduction. Example: Rally is 3400 without any medium armor and 100 in warlord now subtract that by a maxed stam reduction glyph (203) = 3197. 5 Medium is 15% reduction in cost so you do 3400 * 15% which = 510 stamina reduced. HA wise if they're both using stam regen food instead of max stam then sure at 7 out of 7 HA pieces you would receive around 150 more stamina per second then someone not wearing 5 medium but the 5 medium reduction would out pace it by nearly 400 stamina a second.

Addition: in the post above you stated DKs are designed to be tanky because of more mitigation and high heals. Let's correct that! We have 5% mitigation on block, that doesn't equate to anything in PvP so please no. We're designed to 'Stand our ground' and have high heals; unfortunately the latter is dead and having high heals is ok but usually people have major defile ready to smack you back in place lol.

Im not debating which armor is better. If you like medium armor better then feel free to go with medium. Im just telling you how you sustain in different armor types. Read carefully what i write before u respond.

Medium armor gives u cost reduction and x% regen. That means the more regen you stack the better that passive becomes. Its encouraging you to get more regen. Also medium armor reduces the cost of dodge roll and increases sprint speed. Those are ur defences. Avoid dmg, sprint to get away and reposition, stay mobile in the fights and have high regen to get ur stamina back.
Heavy armor doesnt work like that. It gives you magicka and stamina back only when u are getting hit. It increases ur hp and ur healing. You have higher resistances and you get more dmg when u are getting hit. You also get 25% more stamina after a heavy attack which scales of ur max stamina. It encourages you to have a high stamina pool so u can maximize the efficiency of that passive and get as much resources as you can when u are heavy attacking. Heavy armor also gives you magicka sustain. That magicka sustain allows you to use ur magicka utility abilities more frequently and rely on them if you have to. Regen is almost useless for heavy armor builds. You do not have multipliers to increase the efficiency of stamina regen. Especially when u are a stamDK. Heavy attacks return a percentage of ur max stamina. And heavy armor passives amplify that even more. Helping hands also returns resources based on ur max stamina and ur heavy armor passives encourage to use ur magicka to activate helping hands. If you use regen food or drinks on heavy armor it means u are intentionally gimping urself cause ur passives do not benefit from regen. The exact opposite applies when u are in medium armor. Your medium armor passives are increasing ur regen. If you dont have high regen u are not using that passive effectively. Heavy armor builds will dodge roll only when they have to. They dont have high regen to sustain their stamina with dodge rolling. They want to get hit to get resources back and when there are large amounts of incoming dmg they are better of healing through and/or blocking the dmg cause u still get stamina while blocking. Medium armor builds will dodge roll even 5-6 times in a row if they have to and having high regen means they will get their stamina back fast. Their passives encourage them to use dodge roll as a defensive mechanic. If you even attempt to dodge roll 5 times in a row on heavy with less than 1k regen and no cost reduction u are dead meat. Your passives are not working when u are not taking dmg which means no resources and ur regen is very low to sustain dodge rolling. If you attempt to block or heal through large amount of dmg while u are in medium armor u will most likely die unless u are using snb. Your regen completely stops when blocking and unless u are using tanky sets ur resistances, healing and hp wont be enough to survive. Thats how the two armor types work.
Bottom line is. Do you have sustain issues on your build? Yes or no? If no, then why are you complaining in the first place?
If yes get more regen. If you dont want to change ur sets then change ur glyphs. Even one more regen glyph will have a huge impact on ur sustain. Taking off one dmg glyph for one regen glyph does not necessarily mean less dmg. If you have better sustain means u can stay on the offensive longer which indirectly means, u deal more dmg. I have never, ever run a medium armor build with less than 1.8k regen. And in some specific builds when im super squishy i have 2k+. You cant sustain constant dodge rolling or spamming expensive abilities otherwise. And that usually happens when im trying to escape or when im heavily outnumbered. In both cases you said that you are having issues. If you had more regen u wouldnt have those issues.

usmcjdking · February 2017

Armitas wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wings still reflects:

-Poison Arrow
-Snipe
-Dark Flare
-Crystal Frags
-Stone Fist

And probably a lot more that I'm forgetting. All of these skills, all of them, are far more dangerous than Crushing Shock. If arguably the weakest skill in that bunch manages to outright break the viability of wings for you, then I suppose you are being far too dramatic.

I removed the minor ones and just keep the ones that make wings worth slotting and the ones I wanted to comment on. (I'm speaking of small engagements, not tanking a zerg)
Poison injection can be 100% animation cancelled and invisible to reactive wings. There is no reflecting it against an active opponent.

No one uses snipe in a 1v1 or in a rotation. It's used before a gank, and stealth shots do not reflect.

Dark Flare is worth slotting but it doesn't protect from the defile.

Crystal frags is worth slotting for but it's hit or miss on reflect. Most of the time it is cast point blank, or nested with CC.

Stone fist is too fast now for reactive wings, so is javelin. (the speed was increased by 20%)

You have specific instances where it's worth slotting, but specific instances are the sole privilege of Dueling, not open world. It is no longer worth the slot for open world (aside from the do nothing tank builds). Open world is where we have suffered over the past year.

There are many different builds, classes and specs out there that support every play style you could imagine.

Buffing a class into a one-size-fits-all PVP class is not appropriate for balance - just look at magicka Templar. That class can succeed tremendously well in any role without needing to change any gear or skils for that matter. That is not a balanced class.

Asking to be buffed to rival those builds which over perform isn't asking for balance, it's asking for imbalance.

Mag sorc should be tough to take down because the class can do absolutely nothing other than gobs of damage and control - one at the expense of the other.

Ignoring the fact the class has no other spammable option other than force pulse, I fail to see the issue with this change. A bigger, more pertinent issue is harness magicka being free sustain and massive shield vs magicka DK.

BlackMadara · February 2017

@MaxwellC The equation I used was from a thread from June I believe. It seems close, if not correct. Can you state where you got the 21-25 stat per ult?

DB = Dawn Breaker

Stamden · February 2017

To all the people saying "Look at all the skills Wings block, this skill is amazing" @usmcjdking @ManDraKE here is why it's not:

1. You're not going to kill anybody with it. 90% of the time in open world when you use this skill, it is during sieges and ranged group combat. The enemies will shoot you once, get hit with their own attack, and think "woah, that guy actually slotted that garbage skill" and shoot your buddy next to you instead. Woah, how effective.

2. This skill costs an insane amount of magika. You actually managed to reflect a spell? Congrats, you still spent 4k+ magika to reflect a skill that cost 2-3k magika or stamina for the enemy to cast. Woah, how efficient.

3. You need to actively cast it and keep it up. You know what this means you're not doing? Something useful.

Let's take an example. You're a Mag DK fighting a Mag Sorc. This skill totally counters everything they do, easy right? Let's see:

You have Wings on your bar. You waste magika on this worthless skill while the Sorc laughs at you casting Curse, Pulse, Entropy, etc and afking in mines. This continues on until you either 1. run out of magika or 2. die.

Before complaining about this skill, I encourage you to go on a DK and actually try it. Stop making this worthless ability out to be something it is not. The few times the devs check this thread (if ever), the last thing I want them to see if you listing out a whole 7 abilities that Wings can still reflect and think "This skill is totally usable and viable". It's not.

usmcjdking · February 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

To all the people saying "Look at all the skills Wings block, this skill is amazing" @usmcjdking @ManDraKE here is why it's not:

1. You're not going to kill anybody with it. 90% of the time in open world when you use this skill, it is during sieges and ranged group combat. The enemies will shoot you once, get hit with their own attack, and think "woah, that guy actually slotted that garbage skill" and shoot your buddy next to you instead. Woah, how effective.

2. This skill costs an insane amount of magika. You actually managed to reflect a spell? Congrats, you still spent 4k+ magika to reflect a skill that cost 2-3k magika or stamina for the enemy to cast. Woah, how efficient.

3. You need to actively cast it and keep it up. You know what this means you're not doing? Something useful.

Let's take an example. You're a Mag DK fighting a Mag Sorc. This skill totally counters everything they do, easy right? Let's see:

You have Wings on your bar. You waste magika on this worthless skill while the Sorc laughs at you casting Curse, Pulse, Entropy, etc and afking in mines. This continues on until you either 1. run out of magika or 2. die.

Before complaining about this skill, I encourage you to go on a DK and actually try it. Stop making this worthless ability out to be something it is not. The few times the devs check this thread (if ever), the last thing I want them to see if you listing out a whole 7 abilities that Wings can still reflect and think "This skill is totally usable and viable". It's not.

I have quite a few dragonknights. I opt to use defensive stance over wings when fights mag sorc since it can easily be hidden by Ani cancel resulting in a surprise stun. That sets up great burst potential.

Dealing with mag sorcerer is not that bad for the first few minutes. It only gets bad when you realize you have no hope in burning their magicka thanks to harness imbalance which removes your dota from the crit table and will return more resources than it costs.

At no point have I ever felt the need to equip wings to negate force pulse - there are better skills to use out there to do that.

Vynn · February 2017

Random idea for wings to make it more desireable. Increase duration by 2-4 seconds without increasing the number of reflected attacks. This lessens the likelihood of magicka waste while keeping up consistency of use when needed. When attacks are reflected, restore a small amount of the associated resource maybe 500-700. Stamina attacks return stamina, magicka attacks return magicka. This could help with counterplay to range and resource issues.

Stamden · February 2017

Vynn wrote: »

Random idea for wings to make it more desireable. Increase duration by 2-4 seconds without increasing the number of reflected attacks. This lessens the likelihood of magicka waste while keeping up consistency of use when needed. When attacks are reflected, restore a small amount of the associated resource maybe 500-700. Stamina attacks return stamina, magicka attacks return magicka. This could help with counterplay to range and resource issues.

Or it could be a long buff that procs off chance like Shuffle. Like a buff that gives minor expedition and has a 20% chance to reflect an ability that lasts for 30 seconds.

pieratsos · February 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Random idea for wings to make it more desireable. Increase duration by 2-4 seconds without increasing the number of reflected attacks. This lessens the likelihood of magicka waste while keeping up consistency of use when needed. When attacks are reflected, restore a small amount of the associated resource maybe 500-700. Stamina attacks return stamina, magicka attacks return magicka. This could help with counterplay to range and resource issues.

Or it could be a long buff that procs off chance like Shuffle. Like a buff that gives minor expedition and has a 20% chance to reflect an ability that lasts for 30 seconds.

No expedition. DKs are not supposed to have mobility. And we dont need more RNG. We have enough. Putting an RNG mechanic attached to it will just make it another toxic ability with no skill involved. The point is to make it worth slotting in open world without making it another easy button for the bad players and not make it stronger in duels. Force pulse isnt reflected anymore so it doesnt exactly hard counter any build anymore. Just increase the projectiles reflected, keep the duration and the cost. In duels it doesnt change anything. In open world it changes everything and makes it worth slotting. And it wont be an easy button cause it costs a lot and u still have to cast it every 4 seconds. You could even lower the duration to 3 seconds and make it reflect everything. This will make it worse in duels cause u aint gonna kill anything when u spam it every 3 seconds but in open world when there is a sh*tstorm coming at you it will help holding ur ground when people spam mindlessly snipes, frags and dark flares.

Xvorg · February 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

Tell, how can be useful an increase in spell resistance for an mDK that's 75% of the time using a shield to protect himself? Or a HA tank who can reach max spell res without that passive? Is it useful for a HA stam user? Maybe, but with sharpen being bis, that spell res increase increases penetration too.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

What if I don't want to play a S/B HA DK? See, that's what I mean wth "pigeonholed". It is not "popular" because it's trendy, it is the only way you have to play the game

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Tell me, how much do those abilities cost for a stam DK? They are EXPENSIVE because all of the cost MAGICKA and Stam DKs run with a very small MAGICKA POOL and the return of stam is 5% max stam. In a 40k stam build, the return is 2K stamina. So, If you use fossilize (the cheapest skill in the earthe heart line) you are trading 3.5K magicka for 2K stamina... and we are talking about stamDKs with magicka pools smaller than 12K. IN THEORY, what yo say is OK, but in the practice, the passive is, at its best, situational.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

For a stam DK is kind of useful, nevertheless that's not the point. As stated above, whats the incentive for stam DKs to slot earthen heart skills? They sound very good in THEORY but in the practice they are a waste of slots. Fossilize is your best shot.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

How much res do you get for using a cheap ulti like DBoS? It is not even meaningful. The more expensive the ulti, the bigger the restored pools. Again, It seems everything you say comes from theory and not practice.

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Sorry, but all that you said there is... how can I tell you? Wrong. As a sorc can't streak forever, a stamDK can't spam petrify forevere to get stam back. In fact a sorc has more than 3 chances to streak in a row. Besides that, NBs, Sorcs and Templars have skills that regenerate magicka in one way or another. DKs? Nah.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

The class is also designed to use flame and poison dmg. HA doesn't help to fulfill that design. Nevertheless you are right at this point: " Its two completely different classes". So, if stamDK is a different class from stamblade, or stamsorc, why it does feel like a 2hander and not a stamDK. Because there's nothing the class give to the stam user, and under tha PoV, it is far from being unique.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

My apologies, but I don't believe you play a DK. Not even a NB. You don't even know the Executioner passive of NBs (otherwise you should know it is the way a NB keeps on cloaking after killing). You even consider helping hand is a good passive for stam return (lol) in a stamDK (without looking at the magicka polls stamDKs have). What I believe, based on what you write, is that you are a sorc and you are afraid of the changes to DK, but don't worry, they will have little to no impact when the patch comes. So you can spam your shield as always.
.
I play mostly DK, NB and now I'm starting Sorc. I've been playing the first 2 classes for almost 3 years. I'm one of the guys who is very pissed off for the nerfs done to mageblade and I've even suggested frost dmg in some skills. Also I was one of the guys who claimed against the change to velocious, but I grant you I know little to nothing about sorcs (except they're quite easy to play). So I believe I know better than you about the position where DKs are at this point...

Its a tanky class. It promotes you to have high resistances and block. You are asking for a class overhaul because u dont like that playstyle. You are asking for the game to be balanced around ur playstyle. If you dont like heavy armor and tanky classes just reroll a nightblade. If you dont want to block then dont block but stop asking for class overhaul. What if i want to tank and more block mitigation on nightblades? Does that mean i should start asking for block mitigation passives for nightblades? Seriously? Thats not how the class is designed.
The spell res is roughly 5% spell dmg mitigation. Its useful for everyone. Even if u use shields its still useful. You are not a magicka sorc. Your shields are gonna go down. And its also not useless just because u can reach the cap. Having that passive means its easier to reach the cap. Its not useless. Thats like saying every single resistance passive and ability is useless because u can reach the cap without them. And reaching the cap means u are in heavy. If you are in heavy u are not using shields to begin with with so how is it useless. Another proof that u have no idea about what u are talking about. Helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs that rely on it wear heavy armor so they have magicka sustain. If u are in medium armor u are not supposed to rely on that passive. You need high regen in medium armor. If you are in heavy however and u find that passive not good its because like i said you are bad DK. Good DK sustain fine. Im not the one saying this. Everyone says that. Open ur eyes next time u go in cyro. Btw do u even math? Streak is increasing in cost by 50% everytime u use it. 3 streaks in a row is more than 15k magicka. Thats literally all ur magicka pool if u are playing a stam sorc. Hell u probably dont even have that much magicka as a stamsorc. And NB are not relying on executioner to cloak. Lol. Half the time you wont even proc that passive and there are a lot of nightblades that are not even running with killers blade. Which means they proc that passive very rarely. And what if i want to cloak before killing someone. And on top of that, that passive gives u like 2k magicka over 6 seconds. Cloak costs 4k and lasts 3 seconds. So how on earth im i suppose to rely on a passive that i cant even proc reliably and when it wont even give me enough magicka to cloak even once. Battle roar isnt forcing u to use expensive ult genius. Thats why it scales of the ult u use. If you use an expensive ult is gonna give u more resources cause it takes more time to get it up. If you use dbos its not gonna give u much cause u will have it up faster. I said im not against increasing ult regen but you dont buff the classes just because it makes sense. If you buff ult regen, u are buffing sustain and dmg at the same time. And on top of that u are asking to buff sustain and dmg separately. Thats not class balance. Thats making DKs overpowered. Stam DK is a different class than stamblades and stamsorcs. They are designed in a different way. Stam DK is designed to be tanky, it has high healing, more dmg mitigation and blocking mitigation. Stamblades are bursty and their defences are to avoid dmg. They have no heals. Stam sorcs are mobile and they do high dmg. Like is this so hard to understand?

I give up..

Sorry, I can't talk to somebody who says so many inconsistencies. We are a tanky class, that should be using HA, but nobody forces us to use HA...

What convinced me to play ESO as the promise "Play as you want". Saddly, that's not true anymore.

usmcjdking · February 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Random idea for wings to make it more desireable. Increase duration by 2-4 seconds without increasing the number of reflected attacks. This lessens the likelihood of magicka waste while keeping up consistency of use when needed. When attacks are reflected, restore a small amount of the associated resource maybe 500-700. Stamina attacks return stamina, magicka attacks return magicka. This could help with counterplay to range and resource issues.

Or it could be a long buff that procs off chance like Shuffle. Like a buff that gives minor expedition and has a 20% chance to reflect an ability that lasts for 30 seconds.

I agree.

Wings' is actually worse on Mag DK than Stam DK in all but a few exceptions, namely when I was running DW/Resto on my mag DK in light armor and using gap closer chains. On my stam DK I just buff, toss up wings, then go ham on whatever ranged character I'm fighting since I'm basically given 4 seconds of ranged immunity.

If you operate under the guise that wings is a defensive skill meant to assist in mitigating damage so you can heal/delay, then yes, wings is trash. But if you utilize it closer to say - forward momentum or immovable, the skill becomes more valuable. This is, however, worthless on permablocking mag DK who petri-dishes his opponent and RP walks up to them, losing their wings buff before they even get to the target or reflect anything meaningful.

pieratsos · February 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

Tell, how can be useful an increase in spell resistance for an mDK that's 75% of the time using a shield to protect himself? Or a HA tank who can reach max spell res without that passive? Is it useful for a HA stam user? Maybe, but with sharpen being bis, that spell res increase increases penetration too.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

What if I don't want to play a S/B HA DK? See, that's what I mean wth "pigeonholed". It is not "popular" because it's trendy, it is the only way you have to play the game

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Tell me, how much do those abilities cost for a stam DK? They are EXPENSIVE because all of the cost MAGICKA and Stam DKs run with a very small MAGICKA POOL and the return of stam is 5% max stam. In a 40k stam build, the return is 2K stamina. So, If you use fossilize (the cheapest skill in the earthe heart line) you are trading 3.5K magicka for 2K stamina... and we are talking about stamDKs with magicka pools smaller than 12K. IN THEORY, what yo say is OK, but in the practice, the passive is, at its best, situational.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

For a stam DK is kind of useful, nevertheless that's not the point. As stated above, whats the incentive for stam DKs to slot earthen heart skills? They sound very good in THEORY but in the practice they are a waste of slots. Fossilize is your best shot.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

How much res do you get for using a cheap ulti like DBoS? It is not even meaningful. The more expensive the ulti, the bigger the restored pools. Again, It seems everything you say comes from theory and not practice.

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Sorry, but all that you said there is... how can I tell you? Wrong. As a sorc can't streak forever, a stamDK can't spam petrify forevere to get stam back. In fact a sorc has more than 3 chances to streak in a row. Besides that, NBs, Sorcs and Templars have skills that regenerate magicka in one way or another. DKs? Nah.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

The class is also designed to use flame and poison dmg. HA doesn't help to fulfill that design. Nevertheless you are right at this point: " Its two completely different classes". So, if stamDK is a different class from stamblade, or stamsorc, why it does feel like a 2hander and not a stamDK. Because there's nothing the class give to the stam user, and under tha PoV, it is far from being unique.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

My apologies, but I don't believe you play a DK. Not even a NB. You don't even know the Executioner passive of NBs (otherwise you should know it is the way a NB keeps on cloaking after killing). You even consider helping hand is a good passive for stam return (lol) in a stamDK (without looking at the magicka polls stamDKs have). What I believe, based on what you write, is that you are a sorc and you are afraid of the changes to DK, but don't worry, they will have little to no impact when the patch comes. So you can spam your shield as always.
.
I play mostly DK, NB and now I'm starting Sorc. I've been playing the first 2 classes for almost 3 years. I'm one of the guys who is very pissed off for the nerfs done to mageblade and I've even suggested frost dmg in some skills. Also I was one of the guys who claimed against the change to velocious, but I grant you I know little to nothing about sorcs (except they're quite easy to play). So I believe I know better than you about the position where DKs are at this point...

Its a tanky class. It promotes you to have high resistances and block. You are asking for a class overhaul because u dont like that playstyle. You are asking for the game to be balanced around ur playstyle. If you dont like heavy armor and tanky classes just reroll a nightblade. If you dont want to block then dont block but stop asking for class overhaul. What if i want to tank and more block mitigation on nightblades? Does that mean i should start asking for block mitigation passives for nightblades? Seriously? Thats not how the class is designed.
The spell res is roughly 5% spell dmg mitigation. Its useful for everyone. Even if u use shields its still useful. You are not a magicka sorc. Your shields are gonna go down. And its also not useless just because u can reach the cap. Having that passive means its easier to reach the cap. Its not useless. Thats like saying every single resistance passive and ability is useless because u can reach the cap without them. And reaching the cap means u are in heavy. If you are in heavy u are not using shields to begin with with so how is it useless. Another proof that u have no idea about what u are talking about. Helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs that rely on it wear heavy armor so they have magicka sustain. If u are in medium armor u are not supposed to rely on that passive. You need high regen in medium armor. If you are in heavy however and u find that passive not good its because like i said you are bad DK. Good DK sustain fine. Im not the one saying this. Everyone says that. Open ur eyes next time u go in cyro. Btw do u even math? Streak is increasing in cost by 50% everytime u use it. 3 streaks in a row is more than 15k magicka. Thats literally all ur magicka pool if u are playing a stam sorc. Hell u probably dont even have that much magicka as a stamsorc. And NB are not relying on executioner to cloak. Lol. Half the time you wont even proc that passive and there are a lot of nightblades that are not even running with killers blade. Which means they proc that passive very rarely. And what if i want to cloak before killing someone. And on top of that, that passive gives u like 2k magicka over 6 seconds. Cloak costs 4k and lasts 3 seconds. So how on earth im i suppose to rely on a passive that i cant even proc reliably and when it wont even give me enough magicka to cloak even once. Battle roar isnt forcing u to use expensive ult genius. Thats why it scales of the ult u use. If you use an expensive ult is gonna give u more resources cause it takes more time to get it up. If you use dbos its not gonna give u much cause u will have it up faster. I said im not against increasing ult regen but you dont buff the classes just because it makes sense. If you buff ult regen, u are buffing sustain and dmg at the same time. And on top of that u are asking to buff sustain and dmg separately. Thats not class balance. Thats making DKs overpowered. Stam DK is a different class than stamblades and stamsorcs. They are designed in a different way. Stam DK is designed to be tanky, it has high healing, more dmg mitigation and blocking mitigation. Stamblades are bursty and their defences are to avoid dmg. They have no heals. Stam sorcs are mobile and they do high dmg. Like is this so hard to understand?

I give up..

Sorry, I can't talk to somebody who says so many inconsistencies. We are a tanky class, that should be using HA, but nobody forces us to use HA...

What convinced me to play ESO as the promise "Play as you want". Saddly, that's not true anymore.

What exactly do you not understand? Yes you can play whatever you like. Medium, heavy, light, 2h, bow, snb, dw, staves, play however you like. Make a hybrid if you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. But all the classes have a specific design. They excel at some aspects and they are weak at other aspects. You can play whatever you want but you cant expect the class to support whatever playstyle you choose.
If i want to play a stealthy gank stam DK i am free to do that. Its my choice. I can sneak and gank people. Its possible. But i cant ask for stealthy passives. Nightblades are designed around stealth so that playstyle will work better as a nightblade.
This is exactly what you are asking. You want to play a specific playstyle (whatever that may be), that is not fully supported by your class and then you come here to complain why the class doesnt support your build. This was your choice. If you absolutely love DKs then roll with it and accept that it wont be the best. If however you want to make the best possible build then play another class that fully supports that build.
Dont ask for the game to be balanced around your personal needs. You are not the only person playing this game. There are other people that chose DK because of their tanking capabilities. You cant take their passives away from them just because u like it.
Nightblades have arguably the best passives in the game. And yet i can still make a build that will only utilize 4-5 passives. I can do that. But i cant ask for a class redesign just because i like that build.

Drishtan · February 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

Tell, how can be useful an increase in spell resistance for an mDK that's 75% of the time using a shield to protect himself? Or a HA tank who can reach max spell res without that passive? Is it useful for a HA stam user? Maybe, but with sharpen being bis, that spell res increase increases penetration too.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

What if I don't want to play a S/B HA DK? See, that's what I mean wth "pigeonholed". It is not "popular" because it's trendy, it is the only way you have to play the game

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Tell me, how much do those abilities cost for a stam DK? They are EXPENSIVE because all of the cost MAGICKA and Stam DKs run with a very small MAGICKA POOL and the return of stam is 5% max stam. In a 40k stam build, the return is 2K stamina. So, If you use fossilize (the cheapest skill in the earthe heart line) you are trading 3.5K magicka for 2K stamina... and we are talking about stamDKs with magicka pools smaller than 12K. IN THEORY, what yo say is OK, but in the practice, the passive is, at its best, situational.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

For a stam DK is kind of useful, nevertheless that's not the point. As stated above, whats the incentive for stam DKs to slot earthen heart skills? They sound very good in THEORY but in the practice they are a waste of slots. Fossilize is your best shot.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

How much res do you get for using a cheap ulti like DBoS? It is not even meaningful. The more expensive the ulti, the bigger the restored pools. Again, It seems everything you say comes from theory and not practice.

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Sorry, but all that you said there is... how can I tell you? Wrong. As a sorc can't streak forever, a stamDK can't spam petrify forevere to get stam back. In fact a sorc has more than 3 chances to streak in a row. Besides that, NBs, Sorcs and Templars have skills that regenerate magicka in one way or another. DKs? Nah.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

The class is also designed to use flame and poison dmg. HA doesn't help to fulfill that design. Nevertheless you are right at this point: " Its two completely different classes". So, if stamDK is a different class from stamblade, or stamsorc, why it does feel like a 2hander and not a stamDK. Because there's nothing the class give to the stam user, and under tha PoV, it is far from being unique.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

My apologies, but I don't believe you play a DK. Not even a NB. You don't even know the Executioner passive of NBs (otherwise you should know it is the way a NB keeps on cloaking after killing). You even consider helping hand is a good passive for stam return (lol) in a stamDK (without looking at the magicka polls stamDKs have). What I believe, based on what you write, is that you are a sorc and you are afraid of the changes to DK, but don't worry, they will have little to no impact when the patch comes. So you can spam your shield as always.
.
I play mostly DK, NB and now I'm starting Sorc. I've been playing the first 2 classes for almost 3 years. I'm one of the guys who is very pissed off for the nerfs done to mageblade and I've even suggested frost dmg in some skills. Also I was one of the guys who claimed against the change to velocious, but I grant you I know little to nothing about sorcs (except they're quite easy to play). So I believe I know better than you about the position where DKs are at this point...

Its a tanky class. It promotes you to have high resistances and block. You are asking for a class overhaul because u dont like that playstyle. You are asking for the game to be balanced around ur playstyle. If you dont like heavy armor and tanky classes just reroll a nightblade. If you dont want to block then dont block but stop asking for class overhaul. What if i want to tank and more block mitigation on nightblades? Does that mean i should start asking for block mitigation passives for nightblades? Seriously? Thats not how the class is designed.
The spell res is roughly 5% spell dmg mitigation. Its useful for everyone. Even if u use shields its still useful. You are not a magicka sorc. Your shields are gonna go down. And its also not useless just because u can reach the cap. Having that passive means its easier to reach the cap. Its not useless. Thats like saying every single resistance passive and ability is useless because u can reach the cap without them. And reaching the cap means u are in heavy. If you are in heavy u are not using shields to begin with with so how is it useless. Another proof that u have no idea about what u are talking about. Helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs that rely on it wear heavy armor so they have magicka sustain. If u are in medium armor u are not supposed to rely on that passive. You need high regen in medium armor. If you are in heavy however and u find that passive not good its because like i said you are bad DK. Good DK sustain fine. Im not the one saying this. Everyone says that. Open ur eyes next time u go in cyro. Btw do u even math? Streak is increasing in cost by 50% everytime u use it. 3 streaks in a row is more than 15k magicka. Thats literally all ur magicka pool if u are playing a stam sorc. Hell u probably dont even have that much magicka as a stamsorc. And NB are not relying on executioner to cloak. Lol. Half the time you wont even proc that passive and there are a lot of nightblades that are not even running with killers blade. Which means they proc that passive very rarely. And what if i want to cloak before killing someone. And on top of that, that passive gives u like 2k magicka over 6 seconds. Cloak costs 4k and lasts 3 seconds. So how on earth im i suppose to rely on a passive that i cant even proc reliably and when it wont even give me enough magicka to cloak even once. Battle roar isnt forcing u to use expensive ult genius. Thats why it scales of the ult u use. If you use an expensive ult is gonna give u more resources cause it takes more time to get it up. If you use dbos its not gonna give u much cause u will have it up faster. I said im not against increasing ult regen but you dont buff the classes just because it makes sense. If you buff ult regen, u are buffing sustain and dmg at the same time. And on top of that u are asking to buff sustain and dmg separately. Thats not class balance. Thats making DKs overpowered. Stam DK is a different class than stamblades and stamsorcs. They are designed in a different way. Stam DK is designed to be tanky, it has high healing, more dmg mitigation and blocking mitigation. Stamblades are bursty and their defences are to avoid dmg. They have no heals. Stam sorcs are mobile and they do high dmg. Like is this so hard to understand?

I give up..

Sorry, I can't talk to somebody who says so many inconsistencies. We are a tanky class, that should be using HA, but nobody forces us to use HA...

What convinced me to play ESO as the promise "Play as you want". Saddly, that's not true anymore.

LMAO I Play a light Armor DK and Survie and kill just fine. All I need is the heal change coming, a gap closer that works and maybe a lil fix to reg issue and DK are Fine!

DK ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PLAY HEAVY ARMOR. I played a med armor stam DK and Rekted.

Savos_Saren · February 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

PTS wrap up.

ZOS

The update to dragonblood was good, I'm very pleased with it. Even though our sustain issues didn't make it to this update we have made several steps forward. But unfortunately there is still one very large step backwards and that is the nerf to reflect. Revert that nerf and this update will be a success despite the things you couldn't get to this time. However if you leave the nerf in then this long anticipated update will be highly disputable as a success. The change to reflect crushes our viability against other magic classes in a way that dragonblood may not compensate for.

Make this update a win and revert the reflect nerf.

(I suggest everyone wrap up their feedback for what must happen before this goes live in a few days.)

Disagree.

A main spammable attack as weak as crushing shock should not be so easily negated.

You do realize that a bunch of other things go straight through wings too, right? Instead of "What skills can get through wings?" it has become the question of "What skills can't simply bypass my wings?"

It was bad before and rarely used in builds anymore. The last thing it needed was another nerf and this last change is the nail in the coffin for this skill. Either pulse needs to be reflectable again, or this skill needs a complete rework.

Obviously, there is no time for that with this update, so this skill is just going to have to remain useless for the entirety of Homestead. No big deal, as DK's we're very used to having useless skills.

Wings still reflects:

-Poison Arrow
-Snipe
-Magnum Shot
-Rapid Fire
-Flying Blade
-Vampires Bane
-Dark Flare
-Javelin
-Crystal Frags
-Stone Fist
-Strife
-Cripple
-Grim Focus

And probably a lot more that I'm forgetting. All of these skills, all of them, are far more dangerous than Crushing Shock. If arguably the weakest skill in that bunch manages to outright break the viability of wings for you, then I suppose you are being far too dramatic.

While I agree with you that Wings does reflect all those skills- I do think that the exploit of the bow heavy/light attack sneaking through wings when weaved with a bow ability should be addressed.

MaxwellC · February 2017

@BlackMadara
Ah I see I was like what in the world is DB but yeah that makes sense now.
I got it from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/311708/pts-patch-notes-v2-7-0-homestead/p1
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
Note that decimal values will be truncated from the tooltip, so values restored may be slightly higher than described.
Image from a video that I made

You would still get more magicka but 50 * 100 = 5000 Magicka would equal 1 use of igneous shield which would be around 1.5k at 30k max stam.

Lokey0024 · February 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

To all the people saying "Look at all the skills Wings block, this skill is amazing" @usmcjdking @ManDraKE here is why it's not:

1. You're not going to kill anybody with it. 90% of the time in open world when you use this skill, it is during sieges and ranged group combat. The enemies will shoot you once, get hit with their own attack, and think "woah, that guy actually slotted that garbage skill" and shoot your buddy next to you instead. Woah, how effective.

2. This skill costs an insane amount of magika. You actually managed to reflect a spell? Congrats, you still spent 4k+ magika to reflect a skill that cost 2-3k magika or stamina for the enemy to cast. Woah, how efficient.

3. You need to actively cast it and keep it up. You know what this means you're not doing? Something useful.

Let's take an example. You're a Mag DK fighting a Mag Sorc. This skill totally counters everything they do, easy right? Let's see:

You have Wings on your bar. You waste magika on this worthless skill while the Sorc laughs at you casting Curse, Pulse, Entropy, etc and afking in mines. This continues on until you either 1. run out of magika or 2. die.

Before complaining about this skill, I encourage you to go on a DK and actually try it. Stop making this worthless ability out to be something it is not. The few times the devs check this thread (if ever), the last thing I want them to see if you listing out a whole 7 abilities that Wings can still reflect and think "This skill is totally usable and viable". It's not.

Curse, force pulse, fury, pulse, streak thru CF proc curse/mages fury and probably implosion.

MDK will have to be on the defensive 90% of the spamming stupidly pricey skills. When does risk/reward gameplay apply to any other class?

How about sorc ward shields have a base value of 6k and scale off of low HPs, or templar heals scale off of missing magika. Watch 90% of the community jump ship.
Lucky for you the bare minimum, which is what this is btw, is stIill a significant gain for the red headed stepchild class. I really hope this is a trend balance changes are starting to follow and not unique to dks.

FloppyTouch · February 2017

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

To all the people saying "Look at all the skills Wings block, this skill is amazing" @usmcjdking @ManDraKE here is why it's not:

1. You're not going to kill anybody with it. 90% of the time in open world when you use this skill, it is during sieges and ranged group combat. The enemies will shoot you once, get hit with their own attack, and think "woah, that guy actually slotted that garbage skill" and shoot your buddy next to you instead. Woah, how effective.

2. This skill costs an insane amount of magika. You actually managed to reflect a spell? Congrats, you still spent 4k+ magika to reflect a skill that cost 2-3k magika or stamina for the enemy to cast. Woah, how efficient.

3. You need to actively cast it and keep it up. You know what this means you're not doing? Something useful.

Let's take an example. You're a Mag DK fighting a Mag Sorc. This skill totally counters everything they do, easy right? Let's see:

You have Wings on your bar. You waste magika on this worthless skill while the Sorc laughs at you casting Curse, Pulse, Entropy, etc and afking in mines. This continues on until you either 1. run out of magika or 2. die.

Before complaining about this skill, I encourage you to go on a DK and actually try it. Stop making this worthless ability out to be something it is not. The few times the devs check this thread (if ever), the last thing I want them to see if you listing out a whole 7 abilities that Wings can still reflect and think "This skill is totally usable and viable". It's not.

Curse, force pulse, fury, pulse, streak thru CF proc curse/mages fury and probably implosion.

MDK will have to be on the defensive 90% of the spamming stupidly pricey skills. When does risk/reward gameplay apply to any other class? Dudes a *** weasel.

I thought I was just suppose to inhale spam then die crap I been playing mdk wrong

Lokey0024 · February 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

To all the people saying "Look at all the skills Wings block, this skill is amazing" @usmcjdking @ManDraKE here is why it's not:

1. You're not going to kill anybody with it. 90% of the time in open world when you use this skill, it is during sieges and ranged group combat. The enemies will shoot you once, get hit with their own attack, and think "woah, that guy actually slotted that garbage skill" and shoot your buddy next to you instead. Woah, how effective.

2. This skill costs an insane amount of magika. You actually managed to reflect a spell? Congrats, you still spent 4k+ magika to reflect a skill that cost 2-3k magika or stamina for the enemy to cast. Woah, how efficient.

3. You need to actively cast it and keep it up. You know what this means you're not doing? Something useful.

Let's take an example. You're a Mag DK fighting a Mag Sorc. This skill totally counters everything they do, easy right? Let's see:

You have Wings on your bar. You waste magika on this worthless skill while the Sorc laughs at you casting Curse, Pulse, Entropy, etc and afking in mines. This continues on until you either 1. run out of magika or 2. die.

Before complaining about this skill, I encourage you to go on a DK and actually try it. Stop making this worthless ability out to be something it is not. The few times the devs check this thread (if ever), the last thing I want them to see if you listing out a whole 7 abilities that Wings can still reflect and think "This skill is totally usable and viable". It's not.

Curse, force pulse, fury, pulse, streak thru CF proc curse/mages fury and probably implosion.

MDK will have to be on the defensive 90% of the spamming stupidly pricey skills. When does risk/reward gameplay apply to any other class? Dudes a *** weasel.

I thought I was just suppose to inhale spam then die crap I been playing mdk wrong

After destro ult, yes.

Frawr · February 2017

Please stop trying to over-engineer this class.

Just remove battle spirit debuff from DB and it is fixed. Non of this silly over-balancing needed.

It is a waste of time for us because our feedback goes ignored and it is a waste of time for you because we simply don't bother to use these skills when others are superior, meaning that your development time could have been used for better purposes.

Edit: and because you insist on doing the work before telling us about it, you force it upon us because you have already done it. If instead you proposed it and took feedback before investing the time then you would end up with happier player Base and less wasted development time.

Armitas · February 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
.

As our sole source of magicka sustain it should really provide by how much ultimate is used. That way we don't lose sustain while we withhold our opening to finish someone off.

Veg · February 2017

Armitas wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
.

As our sole source of magicka sustain it should really provide by how much ultimate is used. That way we don't lose sustain while we withhold our opening to finish someone off.

Yeah, mDKs in pve can rely on battle roar to get the same sustain as any other class but in pvp we need to save our ults for kill mechanics. This makes our sustain far worse than other classes. We also have to use sword/board so our heavy attacks dont give us magic back.

We really needed some kinda kind of forced damage like hurricane but we AGAIN didn't get it.

On another note Dragon blood changes nothing. A base heal of 6k wew lad. thats 3k in pvp. This ability costs 4k magic. This has to do more than just heal. give a god damn purify you silly devs.

BlackMadara · February 2017

Veg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
.

As our sole source of magicka sustain it should really provide by how much ultimate is used. That way we don't lose sustain while we withhold our opening to finish someone off.

Yeah, mDKs in pve can rely on battle roar to get the same sustain as any other class but in pvp we need to save our ults for kill mechanics. This makes our sustain far worse than other classes. We also have to use sword/board so our heavy attacks dont give us magic back.

We really needed some kinda kind of forced damage like hurricane but we AGAIN didn't get it.

On another note Dragon blood changes nothing. A base heal of 6k wew lad. thats 3k in pvp. This ability costs 4k magic. This has to do more than just heal. give a god damn purify you silly devs.

Had higher values than that in cyrodil with the box gear they had on pts. It crits now as well, with gdb still becoming the old cdb. A purify wouldn't make sense either. I'd rather see a root and snare removal on wings. Flap you wings, removing all roots and snares and reflecting projectiles for 4 seconds. Makes sense and sticks to the theme. DK shouldn't have an easy purify imo. That's for the healing class.

MaxwellC · February 2017

@Armitas
Yup and ZOS could've and should've changed the cost of various if not all Magicka related skills in our DK class. I've advocated for at-least a 200-400 decrease (some abilities from the ardent flame can remain untouched due to its already low cost).

Veg · February 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
.

As our sole source of magicka sustain it should really provide by how much ultimate is used. That way we don't lose sustain while we withhold our opening to finish someone off.

Yeah, mDKs in pve can rely on battle roar to get the same sustain as any other class but in pvp we need to save our ults for kill mechanics. This makes our sustain far worse than other classes. We also have to use sword/board so our heavy attacks dont give us magic back.

We really needed some kinda kind of forced damage like hurricane but we AGAIN didn't get it.

On another note Dragon blood changes nothing. A base heal of 6k wew lad. thats 3k in pvp. This ability costs 4k magic. This has to do more than just heal. give a god damn purify you silly devs.

Had higher values than that in cyrodil with the box gear they had on pts. It crits now as well, with gdb still becoming the old cdb. A purify wouldn't make sense either. I'd rather see a root and snare removal on wings. Flap you wings, removing all roots and snares and reflecting projectiles for 4 seconds. Makes sense and sticks to the theme. DK shouldn't have an easy purify imo. That's for the healing class.

any purify like that would be great. Since we have 0 movement mechanics just like magic templars we should have purifies like them too. I use dragon blood as an example because it costs 4000 magic and heals for 3000 at the base value. Good builds boost it to 9k crits. thats very weak for a single target heal.

Really for mDKs all were missing is mechanics for fighting other players. We can tank in pvp just fine. Maybe even too well. But our player vs player with the intent to kill the other player is by far the worst of any class.

Every class relys on Damage and mitigation mechanics. We have mitigation mechanics. We also have 0 damage mechanics. These are things like curse, stealth attacks, backlash, or otherwise high damaging abilities you can force onto a target. We have have nothing.

Whip used to be un-dodge-able. This let us put pressure on targets rather than using burst damage. Now we cant do either. We can tank great but we cannot fight other players at all.

I use 5 sun 5 spell weave 2 valk and hit 4k whips. This is with 0 sustain and 0 defense. There is no way for a mDKs to fight other players until we get some forced damage. FoB being reverted to its aoe is the start. Then we can look at making whip un-dodge-able again and giving cinder storm its dodge change back.

All those nerfs were made when mDKs could drop a banner every 5 seconds while keeping bats up. At the time, those nerfs did nothing. The game has changed. Dynamic ult gen is gone yet the nerfs to mDKs because of dynamic ult gen have stayed. Fix it devs, its been 2.5 years. Get it together.

Frawr · February 2017

Veg wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: Significantly revised this passive ability’s tooltip to more accurately describe the values of Health, Magicka, and Stamina it restores based on the Ultimate’s cost.
.

As our sole source of magicka sustain it should really provide by how much ultimate is used. That way we don't lose sustain while we withhold our opening to finish someone off.

Yeah, mDKs in pve can rely on battle roar to get the same sustain as any other class but in pvp we need to save our ults for kill mechanics. This makes our sustain far worse than other classes. We also have to use sword/board so our heavy attacks dont give us magic back.

We really needed some kinda kind of forced damage like hurricane but we AGAIN didn't get it.

On another note Dragon blood changes nothing. A base heal of 6k wew lad. thats 3k in pvp. This ability costs 4k magic. This has to do more than just heal. give a god damn purify you silly devs.

Had higher values than that in cyrodil with the box gear they had on pts. It crits now as well, with gdb still becoming the old cdb. A purify wouldn't make sense either. I'd rather see a root and snare removal on wings. Flap you wings, removing all roots and snares and reflecting projectiles for 4 seconds. Makes sense and sticks to the theme. DK shouldn't have an easy purify imo. That's for the healing class.

any purify like that would be great. Since we have 0 movement mechanics just like magic templars we should have purifies like them too. I use dragon blood as an example because it costs 4000 magic and heals for 3000 at the base value. Good builds boost it to 9k crits. thats very weak for a single target heal.

Really for mDKs all were missing is mechanics for fighting other players. We can tank in pvp just fine. Maybe even too well. But our player vs player with the intent to kill the other player is by far the worst of any class.

Every class relys on Damage and mitigation mechanics. We have mitigation mechanics. We also have 0 damage mechanics. These are things like curse, stealth attacks, backlash, or otherwise high damaging abilities you can force onto a target. We have have nothing.

Whip used to be un-dodge-able. This let us put pressure on targets rather than using burst damage. Now we cant do either. We can tank great but we cannot fight other players at all.

I use 5 sun 5 spell weave 2 valk and hit 4k whips. This is with 0 sustain and 0 defense. There is no way for a mDKs to fight other players until we get some forced damage. FoB being reverted to its aoe is the start. Then we can look at making whip un-dodge-able again and giving cinder storm its dodge change back.

All those nerfs were made when mDKs could drop a banner every 5 seconds while keeping bats up. At the time, those nerfs did nothing. The game has changed. Dynamic ult gen is gone yet the nerfs to mDKs because of dynamic ult gen have stayed. Fix it devs, its been 2.5 years. Get it together.

I Agree

Since dynamic ult gen was removed, they could simply roll back some of the nerfs implemented for that meta.

Please zos. Simple fixes are all that is needed.

Drishtan · February 2017

YES A PURGE ON DRAGONS BLOOD PLZ!