Magplars and their problems, PvP-wise pre-U13

Ron_Burgundy_79 · October 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Sure Templar needs fixes, STILL! A little sprucing up, sure. But this class is so overpowered right now, it just cannot need buffs. It's needs a couple of nerfs! It needs to be on the same level as the other Magicka classes or stamina/physical damage will NEVER be nerfed, Magicka Templar is what is stopping ZOS from nerfing it.

Since posting a video of yourself and another templar being ignored by a group of EP, you've done nothing but say templars are overpowered. It would be nice if you could back up your opinions with some kind of evidence.

I believe we've been down this road before, but please explain what is so OP about magplars.

Moglijuana · October 2016

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think Magplar is in the best place out of all classes . Great healing , great defenses and a ranged execute . Tons of stuns too . Boosting this class that some already consider op , not me but some will tip over the scales . A group of Magplars is terrible to get run over by .

I assume you mean Magicka classes only? Stuns/cc include toppling charge, aurora javelin, blazing spear, and total dark. All of those are single target. Did you read the OP's post?

Umm blazing spear is single target ? Blazing shield not viable unless 50k health . Yes I did read it , I just didn't agree with it . Like at all ...

Blazing spear is a single target cc that does instant aoe damage with a short dot afterwards. I never mentioned blazing shield.

It's still AOE damage . You asked if I read the op and the op made the stamens about blazing shields . I'm not going to argue , if you believe they need more you are always entitled to your opinion . I am envious at the toolbox Magplars have for their class personally . To me it really is the most diverse in debuffs , stuns , heals , buffs with an execute . Ranged execute . It is still one of classes if set up correct can get good 1 vs X play and stands at the top in group play . My opinion of course .

I was implying that the class lacks an AOE cc.

Soft or Hard cc? Because I'm preeetttyyyyy sure cleansing ritual is an aoe snare that is ALWAYS active as long as it's down.

A soft cc that is very underwhelming when compared to streak, talons, and fear. I'd take any of those 3 over the snare that's part of the sacred ground passive.

Streak & Fear are hard CC's. Talons is only a snare that has a really small range, costs around 3,800 magicka and is easily purged with a skill that costs Templars around 2k magicka; that again...snares, gives major mending, purifies + heals...basically negating those talons and more...

Ron_Burgundy_79 · October 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think Magplar is in the best place out of all classes . Great healing , great defenses and a ranged execute . Tons of stuns too . Boosting this class that some already consider op , not me but some will tip over the scales . A group of Magplars is terrible to get run over by .

I assume you mean Magicka classes only? Stuns/cc include toppling charge, aurora javelin, blazing spear, and total dark. All of those are single target. Did you read the OP's post?

Umm blazing spear is single target ? Blazing shield not viable unless 50k health . Yes I did read it , I just didn't agree with it . Like at all ...

Blazing spear is a single target cc that does instant aoe damage with a short dot afterwards. I never mentioned blazing shield.

It's still AOE damage . You asked if I read the op and the op made the stamens about blazing shields . I'm not going to argue , if you believe they need more you are always entitled to your opinion . I am envious at the toolbox Magplars have for their class personally . To me it really is the most diverse in debuffs , stuns , heals , buffs with an execute . Ranged execute . It is still one of classes if set up correct can get good 1 vs X play and stands at the top in group play . My opinion of course .

I was implying that the class lacks an AOE cc.

Soft or Hard cc? Because I'm preeetttyyyyy sure cleansing ritual is an aoe snare that is ALWAYS active as long as it's down.

A soft cc that is very underwhelming when compared to streak, talons, and fear. I'd take any of those 3 over the snare that's part of the sacred ground passive.

Streak & Fear are hard CC's. Talons is only a snare that has a really small range, costs around 3,800 magicka and is easily purged with a skill that costs Templars around 2k magicka; that again...snares, gives major mending, purifies + heals...basically negating those talons and more...

The snare doesn't give major mending. A passive gives major mending, and a pathetic movement snare (I believe it's 60%) was added to the passive in the dark brotherhood update. I'll give up the useless snare. We never asked for it. Give templars a real AOE cc.

Elara_Northwind · October 2016

Take away all of these stupid item sets, then see how OP templars are

I refused to succumb to the reactive maultard type of templar, so much so that I now play magicka sorcerer and will do until either these sets are gone/nerfed or until some other magicka class finds a way of being more 'OP' so that all of these sheep can go play that. It is sad for me because I have always played magicka templar, but not being one of these sheep, I am in no way overpowered on my templar and my sorcerer fares much better and receives much less verbal abuse

olsborg · October 2016

Relaxe ppl, relaxe. Wrobel and co. is balancing everything in the next major update....theres absolutely nothing to be worried about here...nothing.

Xvorg · October 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Relaxe ppl, relaxe. Wrobel and co. is balancing everything in the next major update....theres absolutely nothing to be worried about here...nothing.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · October 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Relaxe ppl, relaxe. Wrobel and co. is balancing everything in the next major update....theres absolutely nothing to be worried about here...nothing.

Wrobel on balancing:

Alcast · October 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Relaxe ppl, relaxe. Wrobel and co. is balancing everything in the next major update....theres absolutely nothing to be worried about here...nothing.

Nser · October 2016

Templar luck of dps and jabs sucks
I dont even see magicka templars using jab in pvp anymore
If they change jab from dot to insta damage like flame lash would be nice xd

@buff mdk mtemplar

Dracane · October 2016

As long as purifying ritual is as it is, I would not even think about a buff to Templar in a million years.
It's hands down the strongest ability in the game.

Dredlord · October 2016

Dracane wrote: »

As long as purifying ritual is as it is, I would not even think about a buff to Templar in a million years.
It's hands down the strongest ability in the game.

Yeah and it only costs 2 k magica like that other guy said, and it fells trees ina single gcd. I heard it can even stop CE users from CEing....

Drdeath20 · October 2016

Dredlord wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

As long as purifying ritual is as it is, I would not even think about a buff to Templar in a million years.
It's hands down the strongest ability in the game.

Yeah and it only costs 2 k magica like that other guy said, and it fells trees ina single gcd. I heard it can even stop CE users from CEing....

Yeah it's a good skill. Templars do have good skills but we also have completely useless skills. That's what this thread is about.

Sheuib · October 2016

I am currently running skoria, soulshine, and krag sets. All pieces are impen with the exception of the skoria which is infused for the hat and divines for the shoulders. For the soulshine set I have the jewelry and chest and legs which are both heavy for the people that aren't familiar with the set. The rest of my armor pieces are all light. This gives me all the light 5 piece armor bonuses which are important for dps but the two heavy pieces are significant enough to greatly increase my survive-ability. I also run duel wield on the dps bar and sword and shield on the healing bar. The extra armor and crit resist from the shield is a big help.

I have also been using the shield ultimate with the reflect and it has been very effective for some situations. If they would just add the normal blocking CC immunity to that ultimate it would be awesome then.

I generally run ranged dps with structured entropy, vampires bane, a couple dark flare, and finish with radiant glory. Yes, I'm the guy in the back of the zerg bombing you with dark flares. I do keep sweeps on the bar for the bonus crit damage and when the fight gets to melee range.

With this setup I have been able to dominate pretty much all magicka build characters assuming I don't make any mistakes. Hey, I'm getting old and it happens.

However, against stamina build characters I pretty well have to depend on them making a mistake or me using my immovable pots at the right time. I'm cheap so I hate using them and it has cost me my virtual life many times.

The point is that I think this is a very good build that in the hands of a better player could easily dominate both magicka and stamina builds. And, it isn't the full heavy armor reactive or black rose sets that everyone is complaining about.

Yes, I do acknowledge the problems the OP has stated but I am satisfied with the state of my magplar and think that a good build can overcome those problems.

Drdeath20 · October 2016

Sheuib wrote: »

I am currently running skoria, soulshine, and krag sets. All pieces are impen with the exception of the skoria which is infused for the hat and divines for the shoulders. For the soulshine set I have the jewelry and chest and legs which are both heavy for the people that aren't familiar with the set. The rest of my armor pieces are all light. This gives me all the light 5 piece armor bonuses which are important for dps but the two heavy pieces are significant enough to greatly increase my survive-ability. I also run duel wield on the dps bar and sword and shield on the healing bar. The extra armor and crit resist from the shield is a big help.

I have also been using the shield ultimate with the reflect and it has been very effective for some situations. If they would just add the normal blocking CC immunity to that ultimate it would be awesome then.

I generally run ranged dps with structured entropy, vampires bane, a couple dark flare, and finish with radiant glory. Yes, I'm the guy in the back of the zerg bombing you with dark flares. I do keep sweeps on the bar for the bonus crit damage and when the fight gets to melee range.

With this setup I have been able to dominate pretty much all magicka build characters assuming I don't make any mistakes. Hey, I'm getting old and it happens.

However, against stamina build characters I pretty well have to depend on them making a mistake or me using my immovable pots at the right time. I'm cheap so I hate using them and it has cost me my virtual life many times.

The point is that I think this is a very good build that in the hands of a better player could easily dominate both magicka and stamina builds. And, it isn't the full heavy armor reactive or black rose sets that everyone is complaining about.

Yes, I do acknowledge the problems the OP has stated but I am satisfied with the state of my magplar and think that a good build can overcome those problems.

It's true that templars are strong in groups. It still doesn't detract from then having atleast 6 skills/morphs that are useless.

Eclipse and it's morphs
Healing ritual and it's morphs
The morph solar barrage
The magicka morph for backlash

Also a skill like radiant aura doesn't stack with potions . With all the enimies that drain your resources it's really a bad decision to choose this morph over repentance.

Templars might be in a decent spot but we still want other skills to be use able. It's not like you can slot them all. As it is now I have a hard time choosing over the direction I want to go with my build.

Cinbri · November 2016

And continue with our problems:
1. Firstly an addition about visual effects problem: Radiant Aura previously had an animation of radiant sun lights but then for some reason lost it and started to looks exactly same as unmorhped skill. Don't know if it wasn't restore coz intended or coz noone use thi skill anyway and zos didnt even bother to fix it. I suggest to revamp this morph animation to be able to determine if ally/enemy use this skill: it can have adopt visual effect that zos already implemented to npc primate Artorius: radiant sun lights on caster's weapon.

2. Templar ultimates:
as already mentioned

Cinbri wrote: »

My concern about Templar ultimates as I alredy mentioned above, and sadly reason why people see Templars in PvP as healbots - all class ultimates are defensive, except Crescent Sweep that is semi-offensive. As result we can't hope on our ults to burn targets or help to burst it down much faster but simply to allow caster and his teammates to live longer. I think this is unaaceptable thing and msut be changed: for example remember Celestial Warrior Stars mechanic that deal small AoE damage while he channeling it or Rakkhat searing shadows or Ogre's Primal Heal that heal and also deal damage, why can't at least one morph of Rite of Passage to deal aoe damage to enemies instead of healing allies. This ult is already usefull for zergs and if you solo you willingly accept that ult will cut off it's full strength for 6x times.

So, to change situation where templar ults are fully defensive and can't provide any burst damage i suggest to use concept that zos already implemented yet again in PvE. For example with Sweep ult where one morph is defensive and another is offensive burst:
Change one of the morphs of Nova ultimate:
This ult currently is most expensive and so should provide great effectiveness in large fights, however unlike same ults of other classes this one can't provide serious damage that can be used against stacked overnumbered enemies. So, while one morph will be still defensive that debuff enemies' damage other morph can become offensive AoE burst damage. Zos already have this concept, yet again implemented to primate Artorius and his ability "Sacred Nova":
Concept could be like this: 1 sec ult is casting(to be familiar to templars - slow by design) and than explode.

From pov it will looks something like NB's Soul Shred ultimate.
@Wrobel

Cinbri · December 2016

Small change to make solo/smallscale templars more viable as damage dealer, not brainless healbots or bots spamming Jabs non-stop 24/7:
1. Give Solar Barrage morph to work same as sorc's Crystal:
Currently Dark Flare hardly can be used in duels to increase templar's burst or in outnumbered fights, it is group support skill or skill for Xv1 while Solar Barrage is morph that noone will ever use for reasons that were told 100500 times on forum, so I suggest to revamp it and make 1 morph - Dark Flare as it is for group play/support, another morph - Solar Barrage for soloing/dueling.
So, Dark Flare is like Crysal Blast right now and Solar Barrage revamp to work same mechanic as Crystal Fragments: it still have cast time and work almost like Dark Flare but it have small difference - it loose Empower on cast time, but have 35% chance that magicka abilities will proc next Barrage as instant skill that deal 20% more damage (self-Empower buff), Major Defile but unlike Fragments it will cost for same time, i.e. without 50% cost reduction.
Only thing it need in addition to current is animation of proc, but this animation is already in game it proc on templar skills - similar to Crystal animation around palms, templar can have light glowing round palms, it is easily visible and finally might cary some information instead of being just usless cosmetic thing:

2. Backlash - utterly terrible skill in PvP and not just coz it bugged. Mechanic where it store damage should be removed and get one of those treatments:
a. It explode for it's full damage after time has ended. In PvP it impossible to deal so many damage that this skill will deal any noticable damage after exploding.
b. To remove stupid situation when this skill have such bad design that it was removed from being affected by Enduring Rays passive - make this skill as DoT that will simply tick over time.
In PvP it impossible to deal so many damage that this skill will deal any noticable damage after exploding, currently it has zerg-friendly design. Change it in one of the ways will make it viable for damage dealing ability for templars and will stop being zerg-friendly. It won't affect PvE as this skill working there on it's maximum capability. Also since damage dealing abilities "from sky" can't be blocked (destro ult, netch poison attack) - make Backlash unblockable.

@Wrobel

WillhelmBlack · December 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

Small change to make solo/smallscale templars more viable as damage dealer, not brainless healbots or bots spamming Jabs non-stop 24/7:
1. Give Solar Barrage morph to work same as sorc's Crystal:
Currently Dark Flare hardly can be used in duels to increase templar's burst or in outnumbered fights, it is group support skill or skill for Xv1 while Solar Barrage is morph that noone will ever use for reasons that were told 100500 times on forum, so I suggest to revamp it and make 1 morph - Dark Flare as it is for group play/support, another morph - Solar Barrage for soloing/dueling.
So, Dark Flare is like Crysal Blast right now and Solar Barrage revamp to work same mechanic as Crystal Fragments: it still have cast time and work almost like Dark Flare but it have small difference - it loose Empower on cast time, but have 35% chance that magicka abilities will proc next Barrage as instant skill that deal 20% more damage (self-Empower buff), Major Defile but unlike Fragments it will cost for same time, i.e. without 50% cost reduction.
Only thing it need in addition to current is animation of proc, but this animation is already in game it proc on templar skills - similar to Crystal animation around palms, templar can have light glowing round palms, it is easily visible and finally might cary some information instead of being just usless cosmetic thing:

2. Backlash - utterly terrible skill in PvP and not just coz it bugged. Mechanic where it store damage should be removed and get one of those treatments:
a. It explode for it's full damage after time has ended. In PvP it impossible to deal so many damage that this skill will deal any noticable damage after exploding.
b. To remove stupid situation when this skill have such bad design that it was removed from being affected by Enduring Rays passive - make this skill as DoT that will simply tick over time.
In PvP it impossible to deal so many damage that this skill will deal any noticable damage after exploding, currently it has zerg-friendly design. Change it in one of the ways will make it viable for damage dealing ability for templars and will stop being zerg-friendly. It won't affect PvE as this skill working there on it's maximum capability. Also since damage dealing abilities "from sky" can't be blocked (destro ult, netch poison attack) - make Backlash unblockable.
@Wrobel

Although I can't see any Templar buffs coming any time soon, they are extremely powerful in most situations. If the healing was balanced I'd like to see them have more utility. I like Backlash but it does need some tweaks, I'd also like it to prevent stealth/Cloak.

Cinbri · December 2016

Apparently all changes already made their way into stone and tweaks will be added only during pts test session so here is List of Templar's wishes of next year for Santa (it pretty long

):
1. Radial Sweep ultimate will finally stop being bugged on Y-axis and miss most of targets.
2. Templar class overall will get visual effects for their skills.
3. Aurora Javelin will stop been so useless CC skill.
4. Focused Charge revamped and work same as for trinimac's knights, i.e. port ability so templars will stop stuck in animation or flying during cast.
5. Luminous Shards will be revamped to become usefull skill once again.
6. Radiant Ward morph will be revamped to be viable morph.
7. Blinding Light return back to be hard AoE CC.
8. Nova ultimate get buff/revamp to be usefull in Cyro.
9. Solar Barrage revamped to be usefull morph.
10. Backlash revamped to be usefull not only in pve but in pvp too.
11. Eclipse revamped/buffed to become once again an awesome skill as it was.
12. Radiant Destruction get less range to stop promote zerging.
13. Honor the Dead fixed.
14. Healing Ritual buffed/revamped to finally become skill that worth to slot in pve or pvp.
15. Radant Aura morph buffed/revamp to stop being so weak in compare to other morph.
16. Rushed Ceremony get back it old awesome animation.
17. Overall make Templar class less zerg-friendly.

Waffennacht · December 2016

So for defense you have annulment and BoL - more than enough defense

For offense you have, clench, jabby jabby and RD

I don't see how a mag sorc would have any upper hand over magtemp

I

Takes-No-Prisoner · December 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

Soft or Hard cc? Because I'm preeetttyyyyy sure cleansing ritual is an aoe snare that is ALWAYS active as long as it's down.

It is. Interestingly enough, lets say you're hanging out farming at a resource tower like I was yesterday. I put Retribution down and it's dot ticked off of the enemy on top of the tower. I put it down on the second floor. Like wise, the enemy Retribution was snaring and dealing damage to me when I was on the second floor. I could tell I was caught in a snare by my walk speed slowing down.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · December 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

Apparently all changes already made their way into stone and tweaks will be added only during pts test session so here is List of Templar's wishes of next year for Santa (it pretty long ):
1. Radial Sweep ultimate will finally stop being bugged on Y-axis and miss most of targets.
2. Templar class overall will get visual effects for their skills.
3. Aurora Javelin will stop been so useless CC skill.
4. Focused Charge revamped and work same as for trinimac's knights, i.e. port ability so templars will stop stuck in animation or flying during cast.
5. Luminous Shards will be revamped to become usefull skill once again.
6. Radiant Ward morph will be revamped to be viable morph.
7. Blinding Light return back to be hard AoE CC.
8. Nova ultimate get buff/revamp to be usefull in Cyro.
9. Solar Barrage revamped to be usefull morph.
10. Backlash revamped to be usefull not only in pve but in pvp too.
11. Eclipse revamped/buffed to become once again an awesome skill as it was.
12. Radiant Destruction get less range to stop promote zerging.
13. Honor the Dead fixed.
14. Healing Ritual buffed/revamped to finally become skill that worth to slot in pve or pvp.
15. Radant Aura morph buffed/revamp to stop being so weak in compare to other morph.
16. Rushed Ceremony get back it old awesome animation.
17. Overall make Templar class less zerg-friendly.

I've mained a magic templar since launch, and I agree with all 17 of these points. This is definitely the most in depth list of issues I've seen regarding magic templars. Hopefully this information will not be overlooked. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Great work @Cinbri

Ron_Burgundy_79 · December 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

So for defense you have annulment and BoL - more than enough defense

For offense you have, clench, jabby jabby and RD

I don't see how a mag sorc would have any upper hand over magtemp

I

Crystal Frags, Hardened Ward & Annulment, Mines, Streak.

So in review, sorcs have massive burst potential while having the largest potential shields, great defensive utility, and good mobility.

Yes, magic sorcs have been nerfed. A good magic sorc will beat a good magic templar the majority of the time.

Joy_Division · December 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

So for defense you have annulment and BoL - more than enough defense

For offense you have, clench, jabby jabby and RD

I don't see how a mag sorc would have any upper hand over magtemp

I

A mag sorc should never lose to a templar.

Clench and jabs have zero synergy at all.

Ashamray · December 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So for defense you have annulment and BoL - more than enough defense

For offense you have, clench, jabby jabby and RD

I don't see how a mag sorc would have any upper hand over magtemp

I

A mag sorc should never lose to a templar.

Clench and jabs have zero synergy at all.

But there is a perfect synergy between sweeps and harness though. Sweeps guarantee that sorc's / mblade's magicka will never end.
lol

ostrapz · December 2016

my guild runs a bunch of stam classes, ran a 10mangroup with 8 templars the past 2 days and even though most of us rarely play templar we are a huge threat. 60% hp is low enough to get beamed by 3 ppl. The big diffrence I notice is when we would get ult bombed on our mains by another group we have to counterbomb quick or scatter and re-group. When we are all templars everyone goes into BOL mode without any call for it and we can survive multiple destro ults holding our ground a and then roll over whoever is left. Templars solo may not be the best but they are way too strong in group. When you hit a certain amount of Temps in group there are always gonna be 2 or 3 ppl with breaths going off and you can outlast any group. There's no way to out sustain a group like that and no way to burst down a group with 10k heals going off literally every second

Ron_Burgundy_79 · December 2016

ostrapz wrote: »

my guild runs a bunch of stam classes, ran a 10mangroup with 8 templars the past 2 days and even though most of us rarely play templar we are a huge threat. 60% hp is low enough to get beamed by 3 ppl. The big diffrence I notice is when we would get ult bombed on our mains by another group we have to counterbomb quick or scatter and re-group. When we are all templars everyone goes into BOL mode without any call for it and we can survive multiple destro ults holding our ground a and then roll over whoever is left. Templars solo may not be the best but they are way too strong in group. When you hit a certain amount of Temps in group there are always gonna be 2 or 3 ppl with breaths going off and you can outlast any group. There's no way to out sustain a group like that and no way to burst down a group with 10k heals going off literally every second

Negate is a hard counter to healing. @FENGRUSH 's dragon disruptor is perfect against these kinds of groups.

Sheuib · December 2016

If you want to build a dps magicka templar you cannot rely on Breath of Life or Honor the Dead alone to survive. You have to mix in the survival rotation CCs, roll dodges, and elusive mist form. If you do all that and vampires bane, structured entropy, dark flare, dark flare, beam you will get lots of kills.

NoFlash · December 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Yeh OP is right. Our defensive capability has been getting nerfed for a while. However, that gets overshadowed by people that think Malubeth+Reactive is a Templar balance issue rather than an gear balance issue.

This 100%

Ashamray · December 2016

Some gear combinations make Templar healer OP, but it's not a templar issue. Don't blame a healer for doing his job, okay?
In fact Templar has only, ONLY 1 very strong feature without counter - Extended Ritual. Damage capability is extremely clunky and hardly countered by roots.
Healing? Ok, let's see what is with BoL \ HotD:
1) Reverb spammers = constant 30% reduction (btw, Major Mending is 25% increase);
2) One Fassala on the battlefield and your main defensive tool is halved (!);
3) Minor Defile and Incap monkeys to intimidate you that your purge is the only real power;

Guys, have you ever tried to outheal burst damage being Major + Minor Defiled?

Templar finds his perfect place in zerg or small group, but not as offensive spec - only a beaming healer who is'n overpowered at all without Buglubeth and Reactive sets.