We really need to address heavy armor

Ashamray · September 2016

Heavy armor isn't viable for competive endgame pve (for dd's and healers). So overall it always be less popular. And you want to reduce it bonuses also in pvp to make it pointless again like it used to be? No, thanks.

P.S. Survivability isn't granted by HA. Survivability in pvp is stamina management + def. gameplay, because resistances of HA doesn't provide significant damage mitigation while penetration is so common.

Juhasow · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

Now imagine 53k stamina redguards in next update

. Still I see 1 simple difference between redguard passive and HA. When You look it from purely math way yes redguard is better then constitution but when You look it from real PvP experience perspective can You tell me You deal melee dmg each 5 seconds all the time when You're inside fight? Even when You need to heal up and rebuff or LoS enemies? Because due to DoT's etc You'll get dmg each 4 seconds for sure in fight. Redguard passive is better on paper but in real fights most of the time constitution is equal or sometimes better then it. Also constitution restores magicka and allows to magane Your magicka based class abilities which each HA stam build does and this gives large adventage and classes like sorc or dk get additional stamina back thx for this.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

Ashamray wrote: »

Heavy armor isn't viable for competive endgame pve (for dd's and healers). So overall it always be less popular. And you want to reduce it bonuses also in pvp to make it pointless again like it used to be? No, thanks.

P.S. Survivability isn't granted by HA. Survivability in pvp is stamina management + def. gameplay, because resistances of HA doesn't provide significant damage mitigation while penetration is so common.

Why would a pve dps use heavy? Thats like saying medium isn't viable for eng game pve tanks so it's less popular?

Survivability is granted via heavy armor, survivability means more that that armor on a character sheet it's the insane sustain, the max hp, the resources on heavy attacks and the 8% increased healing it gives.

Rex-Umbra · September 2016

HA needs to be buffed for Magicka users. Just switch out the Stam bonuses on Blackrose to Magicka...

hrothbern · September 2016

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

HA needs to be buffed for Magicka users. Just switch out the Stam bonuses on Blackrose to Magicka...

haha

All tanks in PVE will come after you

hrothbern · September 2016

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

HA needs to be buffed for Magicka users. Just switch out the Stam bonuses on Blackrose to Magicka...

A bit more serious:
Perhaps the stat pool bonusses should be Health, Stamina, Magicka
It is after all a hybrid set

then it would be less attractive for Stamina DD

xarguideb17_ESO · September 2016

HA is ok. It's finally viable in pvp. LA or magicka meta in general needs some lovin'.

Sharee · September 2016

Juhasow wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

Now imagine 53k stamina redguards in next update . Still I see 1 simple difference between redguard passive and HA. When You look it from purely math way yes redguard is better then constitution but when You look it from real PvP experience perspective can You tell me You deal melee dmg each 5 seconds all the time when You're inside fight? Even when You need to heal up and rebuff or LoS enemies? Because due to DoT's etc You'll get dmg each 4 seconds for sure in fight. Redguard passive is better on paper but in real fights most of the time constitution is equal or sometimes better then it. Also constitution restores magicka and allows to magane Your magicka based class abilities which each HA stam build does and this gives large adventage and classes like sorc or dk get additional stamina back thx for this.

That sword cuts both ways. Can you tell me you get hit every 4 seconds all the time when you are in a fight, even when the enemies are focusing on your teammates and not you? Because that's what they usually do, seeing that you are in heavy armor and harder to kill - they go for the squishy targets first.

Sharee · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Survivability is granted via heavy armor, survivability means more that that armor on a character sheet it's the insane sustain, the max hp, the resources on heavy attacks and the 8% increased healing it gives.

3000 stamina regen all the time is insane sustain, not 910 regen only when being hit.

Minno · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Survivability is granted via heavy armor, survivability means more that that armor on a character sheet it's the insane sustain, the max hp, the resources on heavy attacks and the 8% increased healing it gives.

3000 stamina regen all the time is insane sustain, not 910 regen only when being hit.

910 regen every 4 seconds. So really it's 227.5 every second if you don't get hit in between the 4 seconds cooldown.

Wollust · September 2016

Heavy armor is fine the way it is now. What is not fine are overperforming and cheesy sets like reactive and blackrose.
Same goes for sets like viper, velidreth and so on.
Light armor needs some buffs and those sets some nerfs.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · September 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Heavy armor is so much stronger then light or medium. Balance pls.

blabafat wrote: »

The wrath passive(damage) , COMBINED with the tankiness (more health, resistances, healing), COMBINED with the constitution passive (resource sustain) is what makes heavy armor way stronger. It has everything. It has very insignificant drawbacks, and having the best of all areas of the game makes it overperform.

Black Rose on top of that? Health, Stam, Stam (more damage for stamina). 150 Spell damage and weapon damage, buff to constitution....

What this guy said, spot on. Its the combination that makes it overperform.

in pvp. but in pve medium is leagues ahead still. and thats fine

# buff light armor

Calboy · September 2016

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Rilmarshim · October 2016

@Calboy Do this before meta didn't damage your brain.

Strider_Roshin · October 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

Heavy armor is fine. Magicka itself is a little under powered now and that's what is causing people to move away from light armor. If you think heavy is better than medium for all stamina roles, you're ignoring the actual facts and just letting preconceived bias affect your judgement.

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Lol you and I have two completely different experiences. With my stam DK I had to use the serpent stone with regen drinks in order to sustain while wearing medium armor. Ever since I switched to Black Rose, I'm able to use max food AND I've switched to the warrior mundus stone. Going from medium hundings to heavy black rose has increased my damage output, survivability, and resource management in PvP. Where's the sacrifice? No, heavy armor has been over-buffed big time, and needs to be toned down.

Sharee · October 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Heavy armor is fine. Magicka itself is a little under powered now and that's what is causing people to move away from light armor. If you think heavy is better than medium for all stamina roles, you're ignoring the actual facts and just letting preconceived bias affect your judgement.

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Lol you and I have two completely different experiences. With my stam DK I had to use the serpent stone with regen drinks in order to sustain while wearing medium armor. Ever since I switched to Black Rose, I'm able to use max food AND I've switched to the warrior mundus stone. Going from medium hundings to heavy black rose has increased my damage output, survivability, and resource management in PvP. Where's the sacrifice? No, heavy armor has been over-buffed big time, and needs to be toned down.

So you traded 21% cost reduction (of medium armor) for 910 regen (of 7/7 heavy black rose) and claim this improved your stamina management.

If your average stamina skill costs 2000 stamina, and you spam it once every second, then 21% cost reduction saves you 420 stamina every time you use it. That is equivalent to 840 regen. So by switching to black rose, your stamina regen improves by 70 (as long as you are hit every 4 seconds).

(If your stam skills cost 2500 stamina on average, then the cost reduction of medium alone is enough to beat the BR regen.)

On top of that, by switching to BR, you also gave up a 28% increase to your stamina regeneration. How much stamina regen did that cost you? If your stam regen is 700, then a 28% bonus would have increased it by 196. So you gained 70 regen (if constantly hit) but lost 196 regen (all the time).

That puts you in the negative. And this improved your stamina management?
And that's not all, you also dropped drink and mundus, that's how much? Minus 1000 more stam regen combined?

Unless you are permanently blocking, there is no way your stamina management in BR could be better than stamina management in medium plus a regen drink plus a regen mundus. Even if you are constantly getting hit(which is a big if).

Erock25 · October 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Heavy armor is fine. Magicka itself is a little under powered now and that's what is causing people to move away from light armor. If you think heavy is better than medium for all stamina roles, you're ignoring the actual facts and just letting preconceived bias affect your judgement.

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Lol you and I have two completely different experiences. With my stam DK I had to use the serpent stone with regen drinks in order to sustain while wearing medium armor. Ever since I switched to Black Rose, I'm able to use max food AND I've switched to the warrior mundus stone. Going from medium hundings to heavy black rose has increased my damage output, survivability, and resource management in PvP. Where's the sacrifice? No, heavy armor has been over-buffed big time, and needs to be toned down.

So you traded 21% cost reduction (of medium armor) for 910 regen (of 7/7 heavy black rose) and claim this improved your stamina management.

If your average stamina skill costs 2000 stamina, and you spam it once every second, then 21% cost reduction saves you 420 stamina every time you use it. That is equivalent to 840 regen. So by switching to black rose, your stamina regen improves by 70 (as long as you are hit every 4 seconds).

(If your stam skills cost 2500 stamina on average, then the cost reduction of medium alone is enough to beat the BR regen.)

On top of that, by switching to BR, you also gave up a 28% increase to your stamina regeneration. How much stamina regen did that cost you? If your stam regen is 700, then a 28% bonus would have increased it by 196. So you gained 70 regen (if constantly hit) but lost 196 regen (all the time).

That puts you in the negative. And this improved your stamina management?
And that's not all, you also dropped drink and mundus, that's how much? Minus 1000 more stam regen combined?

Unless you are permanently blocking, there is no way your stamina management in BR could be better than stamina management in medium plus a regen drink plus a regen mundus. Even if you are constantly getting hit(which is a big if).

He's also the guy that says velidreth is balanced and sets that do proc dmg are not a problem. I couldn't disagree with him more on any game balancing issues.

Duukar · October 2016

Let me translate. The magicka regen is more useful means you can spam igneous shield for 5% stamina more often. Which increases weapon dmg and 30% heal boost and provides a small shield as well as 5% stam.

I love the black rose set on my stam DK. It does not make him a god however. He still can get bursted down. He just may last a bit longer and have a chance to fight back!

Rex-Umbra · October 2016

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Same thing, just golded a set of blackrose (Temps are near 30k each xbox na) what a waste my stats are always empty and my dps is like half... Lose all my crit, regen and cost reduction for 25% higher defense?

Erock25 · October 2016

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Same thing, just golded a set of blackrose (Temps are near 30k each xbox na) what a waste my stats are always empty and my dps is like half... Lose all my crit, regen and cost reduction for 25% higher defense?

I wouldn't even say ours twenty five percent higher defense especially if you're running 5/1/1.

Saint_Bud · October 2016

The real problem is not heavy armour. The problem is how defense works. HA damagereduction in combo with s&b. Also blockcost scalles much better with HA passives, because you will get some stam back + broken s&b skills like heroic slash, spamable dps skill that give you damage reduction, 100% snare uptime, faster ultiregen and reverberating bash heal debuff. Its really hard to surrive as mdk or templar in light armour. The resistence are to low and stam drops to fast. Also many skills and passives are absolut broken, because they designed pre cp systhem. (GDB, ignios shield, blazing shield and co).

leepalmer95 · October 2016

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Maybe because it takes a little bit more thought to use then rolling everytime you get hit.

Learn to use it.

Sugaroverdose · October 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Here's the thing, it was buffed way too much. As it stands your raw damage is consistently a little less than medium or light, but your survivability is astronomically better, and your resource management is superior as well. This is not balanced at all. The constitution passive really needs to be reduced by 30% IMO. Damage and resource management should be acquired via light and medium armor. Heavy should just dominate survivability.

it was broken actually, not buffed.

Juhasow wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

Now imagine 53k stamina redguards in next update . Still I see 1 simple difference between redguard passive and HA. When You look it from purely math way yes redguard is better then constitution but when You look it from real PvP experience perspective can You tell me You deal melee dmg each 5 seconds all the time when You're inside fight? Even when You need to heal up and rebuff or LoS enemies? Because due to DoT's etc You'll get dmg each 4 seconds for sure in fight. Redguard passive is better on paper but in real fights most of the time constitution is equal or sometimes better then it. Also constitution restores magicka and allows to magane Your magicka based class abilities which each HA stam build does and this gives large adventage and classes like sorc or dk get additional stamina back thx for this.

1. Make redguard stamsorc with hurricane
2. ?
3. Profit

Strider_Roshin · October 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Honestly, I'm using blackrose at the moment and considering switching back to medium. The regen isn't all its cracked up to be, in fact it's actually the magicka regen that is more useful than the stamina regen. Also the damage output is crap, like seriously all these people going on about blackrose rose regen and damage obviously haven't used the set for long.

Maybe because it takes a little bit more thought to use then rolling everytime you get hit.

Learn to use it.

This is a valid point. If you dodge roll quite a bit then heavy armor would not be better for resource management. This is why heavy armor is great for DKs and Templars, since they're naturally tanky and hard to kill. For Stamblades however, they're the easiest ones on the field to kill so if you eliminate dodge rolling you've taken away they're only defense.