Shuffle and Blur, 20% not equal

AfkNinja · September 2016

Dudis wrote: »

You could just duel someone and do 100 light attacks against both buffs while counting the dodges for a decent average. Won't take more than ten minutes.

100 attacks is WAY too small of a sample size, this is RNG we are talking about.

hrothbern · September 2016

Minno wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Testing RNG isnt something very easy to test. It would take an absurd amount of trials on both shuffle and blur. Even then people will argue that you are arguing about RNG and it wont get anywhere.

You could just duel someone and do 100 light attacks against both buffs while counting the dodges for a decent average. Won't take more than ten minutes.

That it takes only 10 minutes is exactly what troubles me !

How likely is it that people have already done that and found out what triggered the additional dodge chance...

Would they report that back on this forum ?

Or would they keep that little secret for their own benefit !

Mostly keep it.

anyway too many

What I do not understand why ZOS does not use in her coding two different words for "dodge" and make those words accessible in the API, so that we can see on our Add-ons that it was an "Evasion Dodge" or a "Roll Dodge".

That would make it easier for us to see what happens.

Also:
By that ZOS could run the numbers on how many Evasion Dodges players had factual during Evasion uptime.
And by that could easily calculate the factual average of the proc chance over a long enough period of time to cancel out RNG.

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

sluice wrote: »

The perception people have about shuffle dodge chances is affected by dodge rolling.
Seriously, when you notice that someone has dodged your attacks 5-6 times in a row. Save the clip and look at it.
You probably will notice 1 or 2 dodge roll in that time frame. Remember that when one dodge roll, they still dodge incoming attack for a fraction of a second after the dodge roll.

Again...

...I'm USING shuffle and seeing the difference, I'm not referring to people I'm attacking.

I know if I'm pressing the dodge button or not.

sluice · September 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

The perception people have about shuffle dodge chances is affected by dodge rolling.
Seriously, when you notice that someone has dodged your attacks 5-6 times in a row. Save the clip and look at it.
You probably will notice 1 or 2 dodge roll in that time frame. Remember that when one dodge roll, they still dodge incoming attack for a fraction of a second after the dodge roll.

Again...

...I'm USING shuffle and seeing the difference, I'm not referring to people I'm attacking.

I know if I'm pressing the dodge button or not.

Not saying what you are seeing is BS, but share data and proofs, it will help getting your point across.

Also my initial message was not directly aimed at you, but in general : a lot of people have misconception about dodge and dodge roll. It's frustrating, but if someone has the stamina to dodge roll 4-5 times in a row, well he's essentially immune to all incoming attack except Jesus Beam and ground AOE until he's done doing his little circus.

Minno · September 2016

sluice wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

The perception people have about shuffle dodge chances is affected by dodge rolling.
Seriously, when you notice that someone has dodged your attacks 5-6 times in a row. Save the clip and look at it.
You probably will notice 1 or 2 dodge roll in that time frame. Remember that when one dodge roll, they still dodge incoming attack for a fraction of a second after the dodge roll.

Again...

...I'm USING shuffle and seeing the difference, I'm not referring to people I'm attacking.

I know if I'm pressing the dodge button or not.

Not saying what you are seeing is BS, but share data and proofs, it will help getting your point across.

Also my initial message was not directly aimed at you, but in general : a lot of people have misconception about dodge and dodge roll. It's frustrating, but if someone has the stamina to dodge roll 4-5 times in a row, well he's essentially immune to all incoming attack except Jesus Beam and ground AOE until he's done doing his little circus.

And aside from the sets that give dodge chance, elude should be changed to provide a different buff all together.

glavius · September 2016

I tested, near 500 animation cancelled attacks, result was 21% dodge chance with shuffle.
Working as intended...

Brutusmax1mus · September 2016

Lucky rolls are the way this game works for pvp. Luck from crits, dodge mechanics, countless procs, it's a lot that can save you or seal your fate.

Sometimes i think certain skills react with dodge more so than others. Then i remember im probably just referencing a small subset.

I'm pve where i have a 71% crit chance, 11 attacks did not crit in a row! Followed by 2 crits, them another drought of 8. Looking at just that it seems wrong, but you've gotta look at it all.

Generally we are aware of things when they are not working out in our favor.

hrothbern · September 2016

glavius wrote: »

I tested, near 500 animation cancelled attacks, result was 21% dodge chance with shuffle.
Working as intended...

That's good info, thanks for sharing

May I guess that you did not test that while recasting Elude/Shuffle every 2 seconds ?

It looks like that the micro game mechanics works with time windows smaller than 1 second.
And that certain effects last during such a micro time window.

Sandman929 · September 2016

glavius wrote: »

I tested, near 500 animation cancelled attacks, result was 21% dodge chance with shuffle.
Working as intended...

I tested 5000 animation cancelled attacks and it was 90% with Shuffle.

It's not true, but I can write it.

AfkNinja · September 2016

Sandman929 wrote: »

I tested 5000 animation cancelled attacks and it was 90% with Shuffle.

It's not true, but I can write it.

Sums up everything written in this post by everyone, which is why I asked the OP to throw up an actual test. No point debating something changing with shuffle if you can't prove there's an issue beyond "it feels to strong".

QuebraRegra · September 2016

ah the "Shuffle Bug Exploit" again eh?

35994_139815752702112_125326574151030_403315_7874222_n.jpg

hrothbern · September 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I tested 5000 animation cancelled attacks and it was 90% with Shuffle.

It's not true, but I can write it.

Sums up everything written in this post by everyone, which is why I asked the OP to throw up an actual test. No point debating something changing with shuffle if you can't prove there's an issue beyond "it feels to strong".

+1
Testing leading to irrefutable evidence, that can be demonstrated, is key

However proper testing with RNG is not that simple
Happily enough the RNG is "only" 20%, much better than testing 6% proc chances of some sets or even lower percentages of certain loot drops

and getting a good test set-up is sometimes key to get results.

I did some testing on live the past two hours against different NPC's.
And the percentage seems to be influenced by the kind of damage

Different kinds of single target damage deliver so far a proc chance of between 20% and 40-50%.

I plan to do some further testing on PTS when my characters are copied to PTS (EU PC)

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

glavius wrote: »

I tested, near 500 animation cancelled attacks, result was 21% dodge chance with shuffle.
Working as intended...

I'm not saying your result is wrong but that's a tiny tiny sample size for testing two random numbers.

AfkNinja wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I tested 5000 animation cancelled attacks and it was 90% with Shuffle.

It's not true, but I can write it.

Sums up everything written in this post by everyone, which is why I asked the OP to throw up an actual test. No point debating something changing with shuffle if you can't prove there's an issue beyond "it feels to strong".

And I pointed out I'm not going to sit wasting time testing a RNG unless others have felt the same way, which is why the post simply asked "has anyone else noticed this?". No statement of fact was made, just the question, has anyone else noticed this?

Analytical evidence is king but RNG testing is an utter pain AND can take a while, that's before you even factor in that this is in a PVP forum and harder to test without dueling or knowing someone else on another faction that's willing to put the same amount of time in.

So I simply asked the question.

hrothbern wrote: »

Different kinds of single target damage deliver so far a proc chance of between 20% and 40-50%.

I also noticed this as well, but I put it down to just typical RNG testing, this adds yet another level to the testing because you can't just stand their light attacking each other, and so on...

Minno · September 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

I tested, near 500 animation cancelled attacks, result was 21% dodge chance with shuffle.
Working as intended...

I'm not saying your result is wrong but that's a tiny tiny sample size for testing two random numbers.

AfkNinja wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I tested 5000 animation cancelled attacks and it was 90% with Shuffle.

It's not true, but I can write it.

Sums up everything written in this post by everyone, which is why I asked the OP to throw up an actual test. No point debating something changing with shuffle if you can't prove there's an issue beyond "it feels to strong".

And I pointed out I'm not going to sit wasting time testing a RNG unless others have felt the same way, which is why the post simply asked "has anyone else noticed this?". No statement of fact was made, just the question, has anyone else noticed this?

Analytical evidence is king but RNG testing is an utter pain AND can take a while, that's before you even factor in that this is in a PVP forum and harder to test without dueling or knowing someone else on another faction that's willing to put the same amount of time in.
So I simply asked the question.

hrothbern wrote: »

Different kinds of single target damage deliver so far a proc chance of between 20% and 40-50%.

I also noticed this as well, but I put it down to just typical RNG testing, this adds yet another level to the testing because you can't just stand their light attacking each other, and so on...

Is say for that reason, it should be removed from the armor slot passive mitigation. Meaning it should be tied to another mechanic (procs on Magicka cost, hold block, etc.). Too much RNG on defense and can't properly test if it's working as intended.