Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Remember. 99% of Trial guilds have FULL MAGICKA GROUPS. Please tell me why that is if stamina is WAY TOO GODLY.

ai caramba

I know, I know!!! Because it is easier to play.

@Joy_Division We have come full circle. Again, limiting my discussion to PVE, so I am not going to touch the second half of that last post. You say I cant prove any of this stuff. How would one go about doing that exactly? Perhaps a good place to start would be to have the same person run the hardest PVE content in the game both Solo and Trials on both stam and magic and share their insights, and if you want hard data, their parses on both classes?

Well that is what I am trying to do. You might disagree, but it's all I got. I have run VMA on both magic and stam toons. Stam pulls a little better DPS, Magic is much easier, at least in my experience. Pretty sure the best VMA time is still magic Sorc. You wrote some great VMA guides, so I will ask you this. If someone says, "I am going to roll a brand new toon, how should I learn the arena", what are you going to say? You are going to say magic Sorc or magic NB. And before you say something about a resto staff, I wouldnt suggest it on either of those classes. They get by with solid ranged DPS, shields and utility skills.

I have also cleared VMOL on both a magic and stam DK. Magic is MUCH MUCH easier to stay alive. How do I know? Because I have spent the last 3 months in that place. Harness Magic is a more useful tool than Vigor in there. I make that statement based on my personal deaths and what I generally see of our group. Stam toons die more. We actually have a running joke about seeing a dead cat (i.e. a stam DPS just died in trash). As for DPS, my personal highest parses on the first two bosses are higher with magic, and as I have said, the last boss I do better with stamina. As for trash, I pull better DPS on magic. That is objective as I can be.

As for difficulty of rotation, again, I can only speak from personal experience and listening to others. In my experience, I get fatigue in my hands much faster when I play stamina. It also has less range than pretty much any magic build, so yes, you are in more danger as you are closer to the boss. Not to mention that many bosses have "spread mechanics." Look at Manti or the first boss of VMOL. These are easier to deal with at range. The best stam DPS in the world are going to get popcorned or spread a curse once in a while. It should not happen to siphonblades or sorcs.

These mechanics are actually designed to discourage the entire raid from going melee range, and that is my whole point. Modern raids in encourage a mixed group of both stam and magic DPS. This allows the absolute best DPS to play stamina for max DPS, but at the cost of increased exposure to mechanics, and other DPS to play back and provide a bit of additional support to the group. I think it works very well, but clearly you dont. I see a meaningful tradeoff, and I am okay with it.

I'm not sure we have come full circle. You want to restrict the discussion to DPSing the Mantikora and the first boss in VMOL, but ESO is so much more than that. I don't think mechanics for specific PvE boss fights ought to determine how the entire game plays.

Yes, I don't think you can prove "feelings." I have played every spec in the game in every content there is. I have PvE raided, at one point was on top of the NA leaderboards for stuff, I have PvPed solo, run small groups, done non-vet, non CP, Zerged, zerged surfed, and been run over by zergs. I have PuGed dungeons and I have cleared them solo. There is nothing I haven't done and no class or spec I haven't played. I should be a ideal test-theory for your hypothesis that the same player could run different builds to determine the strengths and weaknesses.

But it doesn't work that way because I am much more comfortable on a magicka build and a far better templar player than I am a NB. People are NOT the same going from character to character. This is clear as day in PvP. I see people on their alts and they are not nearly as good.

You keep telling me that magicka is easier. Well I interpret that as you being like me: just more suited, for whatever various reasons, to better play with magicka builds. If your hand cramps up, you have a hard time keeping up your rotation, and you have difficulty staying alive, if I were a raid lead who cared about leaderboards, I'd probably ask nicely if you could run you magicka DK. That's how it is for competitive gaming. I ran with a competitive PvP guild and people played on the spec they were best at, not what they wanted to play.

As for VMA, yes I wrote a guide and people ask me all the time about how to start vMA and my answer is always the same. Disregard everything you have heard and run the class and spec you are most comfortable with. In fact, I specifically tell them not to copy Andy or Alcast's builds because those builds only work because of their expertise and experience with the arena. One thing I admire about Alcast's videos is he says the same thing.

I'm not sure it is all that relevant that some mechanics may be designed to discourage the entire raid from going into melee range. First of all, to be clear, it is only some. On the Serpent fight, which is as melee friendly as it gets, do stam builds just get to pocket the extra 5K DPS even though the price they allegedly pay doesn't exist? Apparently so. Also, regardless of the intended mechanics, raids always accumulate high enough DPS to stack and burn in melee range. When we do the Manitkora, 3 people stay at range so everyone can dogpile the mantikora in melee. Guess whose the sucker who stays at range? Me. Because everyone else in the raid has narrow melee oriented builds that are incapable of doing anything else.

This is a problem. I believe builds should have consequences. If you choose to make a pure glass cannon all melee build and you happen to come across a boss that is not melee friendly, too bad. People chose to min-max, but don't want to accept the min, rather the game ought to accommodate the max - hence, all the whining about Radiant Destruction from these pure melee builds. There is very little drawback to running overly narrow builds in ESO because it is too easy to circumvent the so-called price. Stack and burn is what pretty much every PvE fight degenerates to. And this does not even address what you do not want to discuss, PvP where gap-closers, high healing, mobility, and good damage avoidance make melee builds a monster. You want to talk about MUCH MUCH easier to stay alive? How about perma shuffle, dodge roll on command, two easily accessible HoTs better than anything I can get from a magic build, superior mobility, and highly effective gap-closers that make range trivial - harness magicka is a joke compared to all that. The only tools in the magicka-kit that comes remotely close is templar's cleanse+breath, which is why they are 75% of all magicka builds in PvP. If stam builds are dying in PvE content, I believe that's a L2P issue, not a they deserve to be stronger issue.

And let's not pretend magicka builds also do not have a price. I must have at least 15K (recommended 17K) stamina and I'm dead if that resource goes to zero. Stam build have no problem running around with 9K magicka and are just fine running out of it. I have to be a vampire to have any mobility (so much for our vaunted utility...even sorcs and NBs need a respite from the snarefest that is Cyrodiil). I must make tactical choices when to block and dodge roll. I have to slot the terrible resto staff for non-class heals. Maybe you don't care because none of this matters when DPSing the Mantkora or in VMOL. But I have to deal with this every single night I log into cyrodiil at every single fight. So I reject the argument that stam builds deserve to be more powerful.

Balance is probably in the best place its ever been since launch. It is not perfect but you will never achieve perfect balance with so many classes, mechanics etc.

As for the negative comments about ESO devs and balancing decisions there is a reason they have their jobs. Quite frankly all you wanna be devs almost always look at balance from a perspective of your class/type(mag/stam). So yea I will take their balance over the bias of most forum posters any day of the week.

Given the complexity of the game mechanics overall they have the game in a very good spot

I only read about half the thread so far. . .

My opinion (not that it counts) is that magika DPS should be able to be on par with stamina dps.

Not that anything needs to be nerfed.

I understand I lack a significant amount of DPS being a primary healer build, which means it's very difficult for me to even think about completing content like vMSA, but I'm ok with that.

What I'm not ok with is being pigeonholed into a cookie cutter build.

Magika needs better regen, and more spell damage.

I can't explain how much I hate not being able to use a D staff instead of dw weapons because I lose so much dps.

In short, magika/stamina should be balanced where each class/build should be viable.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

Replace every instance of "Stamina builds" with "1 meta build, requiring Maelstrom weaps and 2 or 3 support DPS" and you'll have a more accurate OP. To say that 50k is representative of Stamina builds is, like others have mentioned, entirely misleading.

The OP isn't about Stamina vs. Magicka balance as a whole, you're talking about 1 specific DoT build wearing 1 specific set, in a group wearing other specific sets. Perhaps that "1 build" (and it is only one that can pull those numbers), can be toned down a bit by tweaking Maelstrom weapons or CP. Overall, balance between Stamina builds and Magicka builds is better than it ever has been, imo.

That would tone down dps to a point but still keep it well ahead of magicka plus it would not help with the other advantages like sustain, mobility and so on. Once stamina can sprint/dodge break and have similar ability costs as magicka we can talk about equal dps, but once stamina has an advantage to everything including dps saying its balanced is a bit wild.

Reykice wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

Replace every instance of "Stamina builds" with "1 meta build, requiring Maelstrom weaps and 2 or 3 support DPS" and you'll have a more accurate OP. To say that 50k is representative of Stamina builds is, like others have mentioned, entirely misleading.

The OP isn't about Stamina vs. Magicka balance as a whole, you're talking about 1 specific DoT build wearing 1 specific set, in a group wearing other specific sets. Perhaps that "1 build" (and it is only one that can pull those numbers), can be toned down a bit by tweaking Maelstrom weapons or CP. Overall, balance between Stamina builds and Magicka builds is better than it ever has been, imo.

That would tone down dps to a point but still keep it well ahead of magicka plus it would not help with the other advantages like sustain, mobility and so on. Once stamina can sprint/dodge break and have similar ability costs as magicka we can talk about equal dps, but once stamina has an advantage to everything including dps saying its balanced is a bit wild.

I disagree. The only reason the DW/Bow stam build can pull higher DPS than Magicka builds is because of the insane Maelstrom/DoT/thaumaturge synergy. Take that away or tone it down and Magicka builds will be outperforming Stamina once again. I'd love to see a meaningful Stamina parse from someone not using Maelstrom DW/ Maelstrom Bow combo.

I was curious about this as well so I tested my trial member on his stamblade with blood spawn. 43 seconds with vma weapons equipped. 46 seconds without.

Minalan wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Balance is probably in the best place its ever been since launch. It is not perfect but you will never achieve perfect balance with so many classes, mechanics etc.

As for the negative comments about ESO devs and balancing decisions there is a reason they have their jobs. Quite frankly all you wanna be devs almost always look at balance from a perspective of your class/type(mag/stam). So yea I will take their balance over the bias of most forum posters any day of the week.

Given the complexity of the game mechanics overall they have the game in a very good spot

Yeah. Balance is great. Especially when your class can tank the most, DPS the highest, gap close, roll dodge or block forever, and then heal better than someone with a resto staff.

You don't give anything up to get any of the above. You get the best sets. You can one shot most people from stealth.

Yeah. "Balanced." Only from your perspective.

Great players will always shine in great gear. I'm also not saying that some of the new gear sets do not need adjusting or that balance is perfect.

What I know is what I see on the battlefield and I see great players doing very well across all classes both magicka and stamina. That is a factual observation.

I still see magicka sorcs 1vX and in general tearing crap up with stacked shields until someone with shield breaker or stacked CP (Shattering Blows) comes along.

I see magicka NBs blowing up groups of players with their combo VD attacks.

I see magicka Templars nuking players with RD along with incredible healing that makes killing them very difficult.

So this theorycrafting about Magicka under-performing in PvP is just BS. It sure as hell doesn't apply in PvE given the composition of top PvE groups. Magicka is simply not over the top OP like it was and is thus more balanced.

Again I'm not claiming balance is perfect. I'm saying it is better then ever has been in the past in my experience.

I don't know how 'hard-coded' are certain aspects of the game system, so IDK if these ideas could be implemented.

Remove dodge roll, sprint, and block, then:

Wearing 5 medium armor pieces:
Unlock Dodge Roll and Sprint
Either passive or active skils, that activate the same way as the dodge roll and sprint that are now in game.
Consume Stamina.
Also unlocks Cover
A defensive posture that consumes Stamina every time you are hit.

Wearing 5 light armor pieces:
Unlock Phase and Shunshin (I can't think of a good name at the moment)
Phase is same movement distance as Dodge Roll, passive or active.
Shunshin activates the same way as sprint.
Consume Magicka.
Also unlocks Mana or Magicka Shield
A defensive posture that consumes Magicka every time you are hit.

If you're not wearing 5 pieces of the same weight then the skills are locked and unavailable in every possible way to avoid exploits.
Gotta see where heavy armor fits, either Magicka or Stamina.