I've been playing this game since beta, and truth be told I have to agree with OP. The build diversity amongst stamina users is really lacking. Every once in a while you see some unique builds but unfortunately because of the way stat stacking works in this game and thus the way stamina skills (and magicka skills for that matter) scale off of stat stacking, this leads to homogenization of builds. It does become a little boring seeing the same thing over and over again. And this is coming from a guy who's typically nothing but supportive to ZOS.

SirAndy wrote: »

Bakven wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Bakven wrote: »

You see the exact same thing. 2h and bow.

Funny because my Stamblade doesn't use 2H, so no, they're not *all* the same ...

read the title. Most.

Read the rest of your post. "You see the exact same thing" ...

Yes, for the majority of stam builds you see the exact same thing.

Bakven wrote: »

Pandorii wrote: »

I've always felt that way about stam classes, which is why I always preferred magicka (before they were thrown under the bus).

Stamina builds rely so much on their weapon skills, it's not funny, with 1 or 2 class defining skills (i.e. jabs and repentance for stamplars, wings for dk, etc.) However, I think it's symptomatic of class imbalance problems, which even the PvP kings (the stamina types) need looking into. For example, crushing shock is an integral part of many builds because the classes do not have their own strong gap closers. Executioner is an integral part of many builds because their classes may not have proper executioners, etc.

NBs seem immune. They have so many great stamina class skills. However, these are just my broad observations, since I'm not an expert on stam builds. Not my thing.

NBs only have 4 stamina class abilities, not a lot, but more than the other classes. maybe you'd see a lot more variety if they made class skills have a stam and magika morph.

Every single class skill should have a stamina and magicka morph. If this is how they want to build their game, with you either needing to pick all stamina or all magicka (for the most part), then the skills need divided up just as evenly. We still have a lot of carryover from when the game had soft caps and hybrid builds were actually viable, and you actually could find build diversity. ZOS decided to ruin that though.

Kronuxx wrote: »

I've been playing this game since beta, and truth be told I have to agree with OP. The build diversity amongst stamina users is really lacking. Every once in a while you see some unique builds but unfortunately because of the way stat stacking works in this game and thus the way stamina skills (and magicka skills for that matter) scale off of stat stacking, this leads to homogenization of builds. It does become a little boring seeing the same thing over and over again. And this is coming from a guy who's typically nothing but supportive to ZOS.

Look at the options stam builds have please, you keep calling for build diversity, but it's literally impossible when you have at most a few good skills.

DW--> You ain't gonna see anyone in their right mind rapid strikes in PvP
Two hander --> so many bonuses just for using it, kill someone and get stam back, dizzy swing (insane dps with knockback), executioner is one of the best executes I've known.
Bow --> snipe, need I say more?

Now for class skills,

I'm a nightblade main so I know I got SA, grim focus as a stamina morph. So most NB won't use dizzy and use SA. I mean that's as much diversity options given to us. We don't have access to an entire tree (siphoning). Steel tornado trumps power extraction. I'm all for diversity but we need more stam morphs, imagine my nightblade summoning multiple shades which have proper physical scaling with morkudlin and stam version of funnel health. Damn

2h/bow is weaker than ever imo. You're forced to rely on dizzying swing for CC and burst damage (if youre not a templar or NB) and it just isn't good enough anymore.

Bakven wrote: »

You see the exact same thing. 2h and bow.

2h bar: Crit rush, Rally, Dizzy Swing, Executioner, class ability
Bow bar: Snipe/bombard, Poison injection, class skill, class skill, class skill

And ususally all the DK's are running the same DK skills, Templars running the same Templar skills, same with Sorcs and Nightblades. All the stam builds now just feel cookiecutter and boring. I actually get excited when I run into someone using duel wield or SnB or even a magicka user.

Don't get me wrong, the meta is effective (that's why everyone's running it), but seriously where is the imagination on making unusual builds? I blame @Zos for making some skills usless while others too good to go without and forcing these cookiecutter fotm builds.

Imagination has no place when you're trying to kill in the most effective manner. The best way to achieve the variety you're talking about would likely be to open up all "class skills" to everyone. No classes. Then we'd likely see super OP builds but they could be balanced accordingly.

AshTal wrote: »

Yeah - especially for Stamina classes often I don't know what class I am fighting because they only use the abilities mentioned in original post.

However the issue is if its not broken why fix it. If you can win any battle by spamming Dizzying strike why use anything else. I know it took a nerf but that didn't seem to stop it being the one click win button.

But it is broken. It's not necessarily about spamming one button (although imo that shows no skill and is extremely predictable and I can usually beat most people who try and only spam DS) but it's about the imbalance in the game. To be competitive right now you either have to be really good, or go with the same cookie cutter build everyone else is using because Zos is forcing people to play that one type of build. Why does the weapon skill line that does the most damage also have a strong buff and even a really good hot? SnB doesn't. DW doesn't. Bow doesn't. there are more weapon skills, and weapon variety than there are for magicka users, yet you see almost nothing but 2h and bow.

I am not a guy that says nerf anything. But I do think this needs to be balanced because it's very obviously not. Get rid of Rally's HoT, or add something to the other weapon trees that can directly compete with how well the 2h tree is right now.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Most of the stam builds are the same, some people have been changing it up by switching from medium to heavy armor. Sypher was doing this on his stream the other day with his stam dk by using heavy blackrose impen which is going to make stam users really really hard to kill.
It's long been the same with magicka nb's being "lesser" sorcs. Which is why I created my heavy armor magicka nb build.
IMO it's all about doing your playstyle & personally I like going against the meta.

I like the streamers and they are usually the ones who create fotm builds. But this isn't about the gear. They finally made heavy armor viable in pvp so I'm fine with stam and magicka builds using it. This is about Zos forcing a lot of the stam classes to use the exact same weapons and skills because of a major balance issue. The idea is that a 2h is supposed to hit hard, but why is it also supposed to give 1. a big buff, 2. a HoT, 3. a gap closer, and 4. a 50% execute? (on that note give Dk's a class execute! wtf is wrong with you Zos for not doing that yet?!) Where is the balance in that? No weapon skill should have all that, or if one does, all should.

Bakven wrote: »

You see the exact same thing. 2h and bow.

2h bar: Crit rush, Rally, Dizzy Swing, Executioner, class ability
Bow bar: Snipe/bombard, Poison injection, class skill, class skill, class skill

And ususally all the DK's are running the same DK skills, Templars running the same Templar skills, same with Sorcs and Nightblades. All the stam builds now just feel cookiecutter and boring. I actually get excited when I run into someone using duel wield or SnB or even a magicka user.

Don't get me wrong, the meta is effective (that's why everyone's running it), but seriously where is the imagination on making unusual builds? I blame @Zos for making some skills usless while others too good to go without and forcing these cookiecutter fotm builds.

You are completely right.
I hate homogeneity, but all alternatives are subpar.
Build diversity is indeed low if you're looking for performance.

For heavy armor, it's the same, except 2H/SB instead of Bow.
ZOS needs badly a fresh dev team in combat and PVP.
No innovation, nor vision left in the current one.

I am along the lines that I do not think that ANY STAMINA MORPHS FROM CLASSES should exist...at all. Only ultimate should scale to whatever higher.

As far as stamina diversity? Why? Its a stamina build. Only so many ways you can swing a sword or shoot an arrow. But that's ok...players are idiots and wanted to be able to cast MAGICAL AEDRIC SPEARS while being able to dodge roll to infinity and sprint like a madman, and hit the head off a mudcrab with a two handed heavy attack...lets not even get into the *** vigor skill being added. It was added because crappy players couldn't figure out how to get their health back up when they were in cyrodil, not considering that being a non magical build, the rely on blocking and dodge rolling.

Now stamina builds have a small magick pool, and magick builds have a small stamina pool, so to me, this means that stamina builds can use magic skills for utility, but only a bit of them for a bit of extra defense/ utility. This also mean magic builds can dodge roll once in a awhile and sprint for short distances...using their primary pools for their primary defense and damage, and their minor pools for secondary defense.

Also remember that after that *** skill vigor was added, they needed dodge roll, further increasing the crappy mindset that stamina builds need "MOAR MAGIC SKILLS FOR DEEPS/ UTILITY"...

Bottom line, stamina is boring because its stamina...want more build diversity? Roll a different class and go magic. They need to implement more weapon types yes, ill agree. More ways to swing different weapon, ok...i got it. Maybe spears, fist weapon, adjust the weapon passives so daggers are feasable again, add nor diversity to the WEAPON skill lines. When you spec stamina, you are essentially dropping MOST class identity for the weapon lines...now give me back my biting jabs and DK leap you *** crybabies