ZOS get rid of shuffle altogether

Qbiken · August 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

As I thought. OP is just another person complaining about RNG. I'd hate to see him PvP in Runescape Classic where everything is pretty much governed by RNG.

For those that do not understand what I mean RNG and Luck go hand in hand in game mechanics so basically OP is unlucky and blaming something based on luck instead of RNG like every insane player should. Unless what they are really complaining about is how Shuffle deals with Snares which is just sad...

TL;DR? This thread is just another RNG QQ thread.

aka: "I had a hard time in PvP and now that skill/"stuff" needs to be removed. Cause I shall not need to change my build in order to perform well. "

hrothbern · August 2016

If everybody and their mother has slotted this long duration ability....

We have effectively 1 slot less to use on our ability bar that we could use for something really active
And we have already so few slots

EDIT:
We could also get default 10% passive dodge to get a general RNG effect.
Get 10% additional during the CC immunity of 6 (?) seconds of Break Free
And Evasion gives also 10% additional.
Capped at 20%.

SleepyTroll · August 2016

What if they kept the 20% dodge chance but then gave it a .5 second or whatever cool down so that it couldn't dodge multiple attacks with one proc?

Qbiken · August 2016

People please, yes the shuffle skill is a pain in the a** in PvP but it ain´t gamebreaking. There´re a lot of things that can cause you to miss your opponent:
- The shuffle skill itself procing
- You not being in range for your ability or not facing the target in a correct way.
- That the opponent dodgerolling when you attack.
- That your opponent using line of sight to neglect some of your skills

Combining these 4as a stambuild can be essentiall to stay alive in PvP. And the shuffle skill works fine to be honest. This is a L2P issue. And besides, everyone can slot shuffle, even a magickauser and get the 20%dodge change (NB don´t need to with doubletake, or whatever morph you might use) so stop crying and L2P

Lysette · August 2016

I think as well this is fine and should stay as it is - it is pretty expensive anyway for just a 20% chance, because it has to be slotted. You can be lucky and it procs more than once and saves your butt, but you can as well be unlucky and it doesn't proc at all and you get the full package nevertheless. I see it like the Breton magic resistance in Skyrim, it can be helpful, but because it is not a reduction but an avoidance, it is still an 80% chance, that you will not have any benefit from it at all.

The chance that it will not proc 3 times in a row is nearly like flipping a coin (51.2%), so IMO one has to think twice, if there is not a better active skill instead of this one. One cannot rely on that this will help at all - it does eventually, but not necessarily when you need it the most. The chance that it will not proc 7 times in a row is not quite 21%, nearly the same as that it will proc with the next attack - the one slotting this skill needs still to be lucky to escape, it is in no way OP.

Avenias · August 2016

Shuffle is an abomination, it needs to go.

Lysette · August 2016

Just because you hate it does not mean it needs to go - I have shown that the likelihood that it will not proc 7 times in a row is even a bit greater than that it will proc with the next attack - it might or might not help and if it doesn't, it is like not slotted at all. It doesn't reduce anything, it is like non-existent in this case. And I think it is quite expensive to use, because it blocks a slot, which could eventually be used for something more reliable instead - a trade-off, a passive 20% chance in exchange for the loss of 20% of your active slots on that bar.

Kalante · August 2016

Okay, nerf BoL and make shields able to crit.

Lysette · August 2016

You guys have to learn to live with what you got, this permanent whining is an abomination, not shuffle. It is not fun when the game is changing every few weeks - how can one learn to live with what one got and get better, if it is changing all the time - this has to stop. Seriously, @ZOS_GinaBruno , tell Mr. Wrobel that these permanent changes in the combat system have to stop - if he wants to think about something to change, he should care for that zerging gets highly undesireable, because there is the problem with your lag, and get rid of a lot of the AoE effects when he is at it. You will never be able to fix the lag as long as he is not thinking about this and willing to change this.

Avenias · August 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

What if they kept the 20% dodge chance but then gave it a .5 second or whatever cool down so that it couldn't dodge multiple attacks with one proc?

Thats the infinite dodge triggeres by shuffle. ZOS cant fix it, so only way is to cut out the cancer. Shuffle is a cancer in eso.

Molag_Crow · August 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Shuffle has always been known to be a broken skill.

• 20% chance to dodge attacks? Sure it is.... sure lol....
• Dodges DoT ticks, weakening DoTs on builds running Major Evasion by a large amount.
• Shuffle (the morph 99% of players choose) grants 0.5 seconds of Snare/Immobilization immunity per piece of Medium Armor worn. That's 3.5 seconds which is insane.

The skill simply needs to be reworked. I have a feeling Shuffle will never get nerfed though. Too many complaints from the terrible players would roll in. They'd say it's totally balanced like Malubeth and they need to use it to be competitive

Tooooo right.

dotlife wrote: »

I dont know, im just gonna..

Origin · August 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Just because you hate it does not mean it needs to go

Lysette wrote: »

You guys have to learn to live with what you got, this permanent whining is an abomination, not shuffle. It is not fun when the game is changing every few weeks - how can one learn to live with what one got and get better, if it is changing all the time - this has to stop.

Agree with this. I don't thing that the game should be changed only because some people want to one shoot everybody else every single time. We already had several debatable changes in the game triggered by such requests.

On the other hand, indeed the constant complaining about abilities that prevents players to win with ease it looks more and more like trolling instead of constructive input.

Thornen · August 2016

I agree change it to reduce incoming damage from ranged attacks by 20% and removal of snares when recast, that way I can run blur and shuffle on my nb for more tears.

TequilaFire · August 2016

I just don't know anymore because there is so much lag.
I wonder what it would be like to compare abilities in an environment where they actually worked correctly.

Avenias · August 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

I just don't know anymore because there is so much lag.
I wonder what it would be like to compare abilities in an environment where they actually worked correctly.

ESO has been plagued by a number of cancers, which is more widespread then STDs across poorly developed countries. Shuffle is one of them. Its way past chemotherapy. There is only one solution now, cut off the portion affected by this cancer.

Lysette · August 2016

You guys can learn something from Shuffle, because it has the same chance to proc as is the chance to get a woman pregnant when you do it at the best time possible unprotected - this is as well 20% per cycle. So there is about a 50:50 chance to achieve that within 4 month - and that is basically what bothers you guys as well with shuffle - that you will fail to get 4 hits on a target, which has shuffle active, about half of the time, when you try this - this is what bothers you, you fail 50% of the time, when you try to one-shoot them (given that those are 4 stacked attacks in a short amount of time).

So I would say, good that there is shuffle, it ruins your business - and that is why you call this cancer.

Hadan_of_Rift · August 2016

I agree. While we are at it get rid of Healing Ward and Annulment. Also, make a stamina morph of Restoration Staff abilities.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

PvP really needs all of its own stuff for mostly every skill.

Meaning, same skill does XYZ in PvP or doesn't do Y or Z in PvP at all with diff tool tip and icon for same name.

Then PvE would have its own

There are 20-30 skills that get nerfed or changed each quarter when all that's needed is to seperate PvP from PvE in skill and ability functionality. This solves all issues forever

Ch4mpTW · August 2016

While I don't think Shuffle should be removed all together, there should be something done to tone it down in PVP environments. Where as in PVE environments, the skill should be left be. That way the PVP crowd gets the nerf they're asking for (if nerf), and the PVE crowd isn't effected.

Lysette · August 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

PvP really needs all of its own stuff for mostly every skill.

Meaning, same skill does XYZ in PvP or doesn't do Y or Z in PvP at all with diff tool tip and icon for same name.

Then PvE would have its own

There are 20-30 skills that get nerfed or changed each quarter when all that's needed is to seperate PvP from PvE in skill and ability functionality. This solves all issues forever

Yes, it would - it is in pretty much any game like this - PvE and PvP has totally different way in which it deals with damage and mitigation - while in PvE it is like steady drops from a facet, PvP is like being hit by a water thrower - it requires different measures, skill and ability sets - both are not compatible to each other.

Izaki · August 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

As I thought. OP is just another person complaining about RNG. I'd hate to see him PvP in Runescape Classic where everything is pretty much governed by RNG.

For those that do not understand what I mean RNG and Luck go hand in hand in game mechanics so basically OP is unlucky and blaming something based on luck instead of RNG like every insane player should. Unless what they are really complaining about is how Shuffle deals with Snares which is just sad...

TL;DR? This thread is just another RNG QQ thread.

the pvp crowd does like to pat itself on the back about how skilled they are. random luck doesn't really sound much like skillful game play.

Know what's crazy though? There is SO much more RNG involved in PvP from the various sets people run and THIS is the only one people complain about. You don't see people complaining if a Dwemer Sphere happens to heal someone because it rolled Health return.

Cause that thing can be interrupted tho.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

Lysette wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

PvP really needs all of its own stuff for mostly every skill.

Meaning, same skill does XYZ in PvP or doesn't do Y or Z in PvP at all with diff tool tip and icon for same name.

Then PvE would have its own

There are 20-30 skills that get nerfed or changed each quarter when all that's needed is to seperate PvP from PvE in skill and ability functionality. This solves all issues forever

Yes, it would - it is in pretty much any game like this - PvE and PvP has totally different way in which it deals with damage and mitigation - while in PvE it is like steady drops from a facet, PvP is like being hit by a water thrower - it requires different measures, skill and ability sets - both are not compatible to each other.

It's very concerning that this game has not adopted this idea or concept for future changes.
It's often frustrating as well because ppl want two things.

Fun and viable PvP and/or PvE.

Champion tree and skills need to Evovle in respects to each.

There absolutely should be two versions and two completely seperate ways to assign.

Think of your skills have a PvP mode and PvE mode. So it'd be possible to play one way in PvE and another in PvP without sacrificing point assignments.

IDK, I often become puzzled with some decisions that recieve so much feedback every week. Nerf this change this stop this remove this. Every week since beta. No one on the dev team had taken the lead and changed the two, instead they keep making changes which are needed for one side that adversely impact the other.

Just silly

Izaki · August 2016

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Removing it from the game hurts PVE tanks, so I can't advocate for complete removal. But I agree that in PVP it doesn't make sense when there is already a roll dodge.

@GrumpyDuckling Okay..? Let me twist your words so you can have a clear outlook on what you just said doesn't make any sense either.

"But I agree that in PVE it doesn't make sense when there is already a roll dodge too!".
Bolded the word in case you miss it

When you ro dodge I'm pretty sure you lose aggro. And you make the boss move and everything gets hectic. So that's kinda invalid. I agree that the skill should be kept the same, but be able to be countered by some other mechanic.

Lysette · August 2016

Not just that, I am a casual player with not that much time to play - so to me it feels like the game is changing permanently, I do not have time to learn my character and his/her abilities before they are again changed - this really has to stop or I will be looking for a game, where I can play without that my character is always changing from one extreme into the other. This is no fun like this. I want to learn him/her, but as I cannot play all the time and every day, I have no chance really.

Example I was getting comfortable to know what my character can do and what he/she cannot do yet - now they changed the way in which stats-modifier stack - and all the experience I got is in vain, because it feels nothing like before to me - I have to learn it newly. But for what should I learn it?- It will most likely again be different when I am getting there and start feeling comfortable. I am really getting tired of these permanent changes, which on top of it do not make sense to me - they are just trial and error - or worse, intentional to sell race change tokens - and if I get the feeling that it is that, I will be gone for good - I am not playing the dumb a$$ for ZOS.

UltimaJoe777 · August 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I don't know where you see a problem with this at all - in average every 5th attack on him will be auto-dodged and not hit him, that is like a resistance passive against damage, nothing more - there is no need to change anything. And it is special in comparison to other resistances, in that it is not a reduction of damage, but a total avoidance if successful. Which is good as well. There does not need to be a counter to it - it works like magical restance of a Breton in Skyrim basically, just against any damage. In 4 out of 5 cases it will not help him at all, he will be hit with full force - just in 1 out of 5 he will in average be able to avoid being hit.

But in PvP that one hit could be to much. I think shuffle is cheesy and a little op, but I'm fine with it as long as they can't dodge when they are CC'd. You can't do anything else while CC'd you shouldn't be able to dodge either.

This is basically like saying Medium Armor Stamina Builds should not be able to defend themselves against oncoming attacks. Light Armor and Magicka Builds have Damage Shields and Heals and Heavy Armor can mitigate damage pretty good but Stamina relies entirely on dodging which also consumes Stamina and too much Dodge Rolling leaves them unable to fight back. A 20% chance to auto-dodge 1 or a few attacks depending on how bombarded they are is quite useful.

Also I would again like to state Shuffle is NOT the only means of dodging. Blur, Hist Bark, the other morph called Elude, and Spectre's Eye all grant Major Evasion so why is Shuffle literally the only skill complained about here? I say Shuffle because Evasion itself should be complained about so it just makes all this crying about Shuffle look stupid.

UltimaJoe777 · August 2016

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

As I thought. OP is just another person complaining about RNG. I'd hate to see him PvP in Runescape Classic where everything is pretty much governed by RNG.

For those that do not understand what I mean RNG and Luck go hand in hand in game mechanics so basically OP is unlucky and blaming something based on luck instead of RNG like every insane player should. Unless what they are really complaining about is how Shuffle deals with Snares which is just sad...

TL;DR? This thread is just another RNG QQ thread.

the pvp crowd does like to pat itself on the back about how skilled they are. random luck doesn't really sound much like skillful game play.

Know what's crazy though? There is SO much more RNG involved in PvP from the various sets people run and THIS is the only one people complain about. You don't see people complaining if a Dwemer Sphere happens to heal someone because it rolled Health return.

Cause that thing can be interrupted tho.

It was an example lol there are plenty more sets out there with a chance to proc. I wonder how people are gonna feel about Velidreth? Stamblade uses Ambush, it procs Velidreth, insta-burst right there. 20% chance to proc so it should be removed too right?

gamerguy757 · August 2016

Keep it. But bring it to 10%.

thankyourat · August 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I don't know where you see a problem with this at all - in average every 5th attack on him will be auto-dodged and not hit him, that is like a resistance passive against damage, nothing more - there is no need to change anything. And it is special in comparison to other resistances, in that it is not a reduction of damage, but a total avoidance if successful. Which is good as well. There does not need to be a counter to it - it works like magical restance of a Breton in Skyrim basically, just against any damage. In 4 out of 5 cases it will not help him at all, he will be hit with full force - just in 1 out of 5 he will in average be able to avoid being hit.

But in PvP that one hit could be to much. I think shuffle is cheesy and a little op, but I'm fine with it as long as they can't dodge when they are CC'd. You can't do anything else while CC'd you shouldn't be able to dodge either.

This is basically like saying Medium Armor Stamina Builds should not be able to defend themselves against oncoming attacks. Light Armor and Magicka Builds have Damage Shields and Heals and Heavy Armor can mitigate damage pretty good but Stamina relies entirely on dodging which also consumes Stamina and too much Dodge Rolling leaves them unable to fight back. A 20% chance to auto-dodge 1 or a few attacks depending on how bombarded they are is quite useful.

Also I would again like to state Shuffle is NOT the only means of dodging. Blur, Hist Bark, the other morph called Elude, and Spectre's Eye all grant Major Evasion so why is Shuffle literally the only skill complained about here? I say Shuffle because Evasion itself should be complained about so it just makes all this crying about Shuffle look stupid.

I'm fine with shuffle dodging attacks. I think it's a little over the top for stam dk and stamplar but that's a different story. What I don't like is dodging while CC'd if you get hit by dizzying swing and are on the ground you should not be able to dodge the reverse slice that is coming next. That's what I want to see changed you can't do anything in this game while CC'd. shuffle should not be able to proc during that window either. Also if you are a stamina build you have plenty of ways to defend yourself including blocking and dodge rolling. And better heals than magicka as well (Excluding magplar). that small window were shuffle can't proc a dodge chance isn't really nerfing the skill all that much either.

mb10 · August 2016

It should be 10% dodge chance in PVP

and 20% in PVE

Many skills arent as good in pvp as they are in pve and major evasion should definitely be one them

FloppyTouch · August 2016

Return mdk cinder storm and shuffle is fine