rfennell_ESO wrote: »Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.
KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »I love the TOS defense or as I like to call it, the "Goody Two Shoes" defense. Let me guess. You do exactly 30mph in a 30mph zone too.
Should I have gotten banned for fishing in Wrothgar too because it yielded double fish? Clearly that wasn't intended.
IcyDeadPeople wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.
Sounds like you are simply describing server latency issues like rubberbanding. When you are seeing this, usually everyone near you is experiencing exactly the same thing, regardless of faction
kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »The big problem with players is that they cannot be monitored. They change their behaviour to not be detected. Finding these kind of cheaters is really hard. Why ? Because some players don't play ESO, they make money in ESO. Their account can grow as much as cheaters. It's not exploiting, farming money is legal. How can ZO find cheaters if "normal" players can make as much money ? They simply can't. You cannot monitor every element of such a big database without creating 15s lag
MaxwellCrystal wrote: »If there's an exploit you address it but it's not the players fault for finding a fault in your design of the game. This is just like what's going on in 'The Division', if players find an exploit then fix it as soon as possible. Depending on how severe the exploit is the best option is to shut down the servers.
Simply banning players for exploiting something in the game shouldn't be what everyone wants to see happen especially if the exploit was around for quite sometime; that my friend is called negligence and I'll reiterate it's not the players fault.
IcyDeadPeople wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.
Sounds like you are describing server latency issues such as rubberbanding. When you are seeing this, usually everyone near you is experiencing the same thing, regardless of faction
.
GarnetFire17 wrote: »Find the spot and put the survey in their bank then go back?
Sometimes i have the feeling that i play ESO open BETA......ZENI blaming players for exploiting? It's their failure and bad programming who drove to this end
They should apologize for taking down the server at Friday night cause of their incompetence to prevent this and not blaming "exploiters"
There are two views I have seen from companies regarding exploits,
the first is a hard-line approach, where players are at fault for exploiting broken mechanics
the other is a significantly more permissive approach, where the company feels at fault for producing broken mechanics, and does not punish players as a result
ZOS seems to fall into the second category
[snip]
"Exploit until they fix it, you won't be banned"
That's the statement I often hear within this game. Sadly ZOS has a very poor track record of any kind of enforcement of their own EULA/ToS. Since the launch of the game there have been dozens of exploits within the game (as with all MMO's) and very few of them have ever seen official statements, warnings or bans.
Known Exploits Enfoced
Guild Bank Duplication
Soul Gem Farming (Darkshade)
Invisible Characters in Cyrodiil
Wabbajack Campaign Emperor (spoiler for more information)An Emperor back on the Wabbajack campaign who made use of speed bugs, high damage caltrops and many others was permanently banned from the game. However upon petitioning they were able to reduce the ban to one month, then down to a removal after a second petition.Killing Players Inside Cyrodiil Safe Zone.
The above list are the only times I have ever known of players removed from the game due to exploitation. Of all of those only two of them ever received official statements warning players that making use of those exploits would result in a ban.
It doesn't take much to see that other games have far better deterrents and communication about exploiting, you can simply Google a games name and "exploit warning" to get a few hits. Below are several links to information on how this has been handled with other games.
SWTOR Exploit Warning Post
EVE Online Exploits Page
Diablo 3 Exploit Warning Post
Guild Wars 2 Reddit Comment
The sad truth is that the above examples just don't happen here, ZOS don't talk about exploits, they don't talk about enforcement and sadly in many cases they don't do anything.
So what should we be doing as players, are all exploits just considered regular bugs we can abuse without being punished for it? I would love to hear some actual input on ZOS regarding this.
Lastly I want to make clear that FOTM overpowered abilities, sets etc. are not exploits. This thread is aimed specifically at repeatable bugs which grant players massive benefits rather than OP skills/builds.
[minor edit to remove reference to moderated content]
The reality is that players aren't scared by ZOS.If there's something to abuse players will abuse it and there won't be any consequences thats why when an exploit gets fixed and a new one appears players are going to abuse it.
dimensional wrote: »@ZOS_AlanG
Except you MUST finally make a stand on what your policy towards cheating actually is, and then you MUST stick to it!
The ambiguity MUST stop, and it must stop NOW!
The phrase "Can result in disciplinary action." is no longer acceptable from management.
You MUST calm down. They DON'T have to do a single thing you demand of them. Your use of BOLD and CAPS doesn't make them do what you want.
God forbid you understand what emphasis is.
/facepalm
As an example, when a company fails to protect their copyrights, they lose them. In this case, if they fail to police their own game, then by default they lose that right and players become free to exploit all they want until the devs fix them.
There are two sides of this coin. ZOS just needs to let us know which side they fall on. It's pretty simple.
GarnetFire17 wrote: »MaxwellCrystal wrote: »If there's an exploit you address it but it's not the players fault for finding a fault in your design of the game. This is just like what's going on in 'The Division', if players find an exploit then fix it as soon as possible. Depending on how severe the exploit is the best option is to shut down the servers.
Simply banning players for exploiting something in the game shouldn't be what everyone wants to see happen especially if the exploit was around for quite sometime; that my friend is called negligence and I'll reiterate it's not the players fault.
I wouldn't even use the word "exploiting." They are "playing" the game that they paid. Not making the surveys disappear the right way in the first place is a huge mistake by ZOS and there is no one else at fault for the results of such a dumb mistake. What did the players do? Find the spot and put the survey in their bank then go back? They earned that survey and can put it in their bank anytime they want. ZOS really messed this one up.
@Krist@Sunburnt_Penguin
I don't care what category you put the exploit in, if you already think this way, you will abuse the game. So go for it, see if you get banned. Why ask first? If you are so sure no one is getting in trouble, or if you not knowing means you feel it is okay, then go ahead. Personally I don't think it is okay, and I am pretty sure they will be dealing with some on this. Of course, it really is not my business at this point, them fixing it was.
KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »I love the TOS defense or as I like to call it, the "Goody Two Shoes" defense. Let me guess. You do exactly 30mph in a 30mph zone too.
Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »Gina has said that they are reprimanding anyway so it's all good
Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.
I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.
I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?
Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.
Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.
Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.
In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE
DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.
I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.
I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?
Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.
Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.
Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.
In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE
You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.
As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.
kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »
Bot all disappeared (there may be some powerful one but how to find them). ZO did a really nice job banning them.