ZOS Stance on Exploiting Game Bugs

DatNutrient

Tbh, I think temp bans would be a good solution. A suspension of some kind. Would but a hole in gold farming activity (those offenders would be more obvious) but to be honest, permanently banning exploiters after letting so many other exploitations go would be kind of iffy on my opinion. People had thousand of Columbine from the alchemy exploit lol

IcyDeadPeople

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.

Sounds like you are describing server latency issues such as rubberbanding. When you are seeing this, usually everyone near you is experiencing the same thing, regardless of faction
.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I love the TOS defense or as I like to call it, the "Goody Two Shoes" defense. Let me guess. You do exactly 30mph in a 30mph zone too.

Should I have gotten banned for fishing in Wrothgar too because it yielded double fish? Clearly that wasn't intended.

I might not do 30 but if I get stopped for speeding I dont whine about. I knew what the speed limit was.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.

Sounds like you are simply describing server latency issues like rubberbanding. When you are seeing this, usually everyone near you is experiencing exactly the same thing, regardless of faction

While yes true you say that there is latency issues. There are also exploits people use to zip around and basically teleport etc. Best you can do is report it then move on.

kawazu874b16_ESO

Please do not burn me to ashes ok

In the past, some people should remember, there have been many many many bots in the game.
I still remember public dungeons where it was really easy killing bosses. The only thing was to strike fast enough before the gold sellers' bots drowned, disintegrated bosses.
I still remember trying to harvest so many times but being unable to because the items were locked by bots.
I still remember these strange characters running by 4 or more, all identical, with coded names, doing circles to farm (just like some players today )

Bot all disappeared (there may be some powerful one but how to find them). ZO did a really nice job banning them.

All these bots had all the same characteristic : time. They could be monitored over time. The big problem with players is that they cannot be monitored. They change their behaviour to not be detected. Finding these kind of cheaters is really hard. Why ? Because some players don't play ESO, they make money in ESO. Their account can grow as much as cheaters. It's not exploiting, farming money is legal. How can ZO find cheaters if "normal" players can make as much money ? They simply can't. You cannot monitor every element of such a big database without creating 15s lag

Sunburnt_Penguin

Whilst it's good that ZOS are now taking action on this; it just goes to show - given the thread that started this claimed to have been reporting players for a while - that unless it's something that becomes public knowledge, action isn't taken. Hopefully that changes and they become a bit more proactive, though.

Drungly

kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »

The big problem with players is that they cannot be monitored. They change their behaviour to not be detected. Finding these kind of cheaters is really hard. Why ? Because some players don't play ESO, they make money in ESO. Their account can grow as much as cheaters. It's not exploiting, farming money is legal. How can ZO find cheaters if "normal" players can make as much money ? They simply can't. You cannot monitor every element of such a big database without creating 15s lag

That's not true. You can detect everything. Regardless of the technology used and the capabilities (I doubt monitoring will create a lag on such a scale, we're not talking about a simple SQL server database here), you can easily detect anomalies in player behavior. You just need a good algorithm.

ElderBugOffline

exploiters is a good people, because they looking for exploits and sooner or later force ZOS to fix them

it makes game better

GarnetFire17

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

If there's an exploit you address it but it's not the players fault for finding a fault in your design of the game. This is just like what's going on in 'The Division', if players find an exploit then fix it as soon as possible. Depending on how severe the exploit is the best option is to shut down the servers.

Simply banning players for exploiting something in the game shouldn't be what everyone wants to see happen especially if the exploit was around for quite sometime; that my friend is called negligence and I'll reiterate it's not the players fault.

I wouldn't even use the word "exploiting." They are "playing" the game that they paid. Not making the surveys disappear the right way in the first place is a huge mistake by ZOS and there is no one else at fault for the results of such a dumb mistake. What did the players do? Find the spot and put the survey in their bank then go back? They earned that survey and can put it in their bank anytime they want. ZOS really messed this one up.

rfennell_ESO

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Most of the pvp exploiters can be plainly seen... broken animations, moving corpses, people that warp around and change positions like they were "lagging" and everything sped up to catch up to their position.

Sounds like you are describing server latency issues such as rubberbanding. When you are seeing this, usually everyone near you is experiencing the same thing, regardless of faction
.

Haha, surrrrrrrrrrre.

Except I don't see it happening to myself, my group or anyone except certain people. It's always the same "groups" of people...

Glamdring

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

Find the spot and put the survey in their bank then go back?

With a banker assistant, no need to go away from the spot.

Destyran

So we have immortal players in pvp. Had people farming 10s of thousands of scraps vamps and were wolfs? Item set glitching? All the bugs listed here and they are banning people for getting mats? Wow its not even as good as the pigs. Poor people who spent $50 on a crappy banker that is a rip off get banned? Ok gg zos gg. Ill remember this next time i report a immortal player and bothing happens.

Altaire

While ZoS will never list those ppl banned/disciplined. it would be good if they posted the weekly number of accounts under suspension so players can see there is a risk.
It might deter some from trying exploits and give players some feedback that ZoS is responding to bug fixes.

Drakoleon

Sometimes i have the feeling that i play ESO open BETA......ZENI blaming players for exploiting? It's their failure and bad programming who drove to this end
They should apologize for taking down the server at Friday night cause of their incompetence to prevent this and not blaming "exploiters"

Pomaikai

FYI, I had a nice PM discussion with Alex prior to my post here. It ended in total ambiguity, and zero finality. Alex then posted here, and again the Vaguebooking was palpable.

It appears that ZOS has realized that they need to be form here, but it can't just be this one exploit. The players need to know that ZOS is tough on exploiters. This is a good start. Let's hope it's not just a one off job.

Buffler

Drakoleon wrote: »

Sometimes i have the feeling that i play ESO open BETA......ZENI blaming players for exploiting? It's their failure and bad programming who drove to this end
They should apologize for taking down the server at Friday night cause of their incompetence to prevent this and not blaming "exploiters"

The clue is in the title....."exploiters"

Wreuntzylla

Samadhi wrote: »

There are two views I have seen from companies regarding exploits,
the first is a hard-line approach, where players are at fault for exploiting broken mechanics
the other is a significantly more permissive approach, where the company feels at fault for producing broken mechanics, and does not punish players as a result

ZOS seems to fall into the second category

That is not at all how companies think. The two approaches are different responses to legal implications and revenue targets. They could care less if they are at fault. In fact, they plan on being at fault. They typically require users refrain from exploiting game mechanics even if the exploit has not been identified. In other words, if you are exploiting harvesting nodes that are giving more than they are supposed to by standing on your head and plugging your nose, you should know its not intended and you can be banned.

Turelus wrote: »

[snip]

"Exploit until they fix it, you won't be banned"

That's the statement I often hear within this game. Sadly ZOS has a very poor track record of any kind of enforcement of their own EULA/ToS. Since the launch of the game there have been dozens of exploits within the game (as with all MMO's) and very few of them have ever seen official statements, warnings or bans.

Known Exploits Enfoced
Guild Bank Duplication
Soul Gem Farming (Darkshade)
Invisible Characters in Cyrodiil
Wabbajack Campaign Emperor (spoiler for more information)

An Emperor back on the Wabbajack campaign who made use of speed bugs, high damage caltrops and many others was permanently banned from the game. However upon petitioning they were able to reduce the ban to one month, then down to a removal after a second petition.

Killing Players Inside Cyrodiil Safe Zone.

The above list are the only times I have ever known of players removed from the game due to exploitation. Of all of those only two of them ever received official statements warning players that making use of those exploits would result in a ban.

It doesn't take much to see that other games have far better deterrents and communication about exploiting, you can simply Google a games name and "exploit warning" to get a few hits. Below are several links to information on how this has been handled with other games.

SWTOR Exploit Warning Post
EVE Online Exploits Page
Diablo 3 Exploit Warning Post
Guild Wars 2 Reddit Comment

The sad truth is that the above examples just don't happen here, ZOS don't talk about exploits, they don't talk about enforcement and sadly in many cases they don't do anything.

So what should we be doing as players, are all exploits just considered regular bugs we can abuse without being punished for it? I would love to hear some actual input on ZOS regarding this.

Lastly I want to make clear that FOTM overpowered abilities, sets etc. are not exploits. This thread is aimed specifically at repeatable bugs which grant players massive benefits rather than OP skills/builds.


[minor edit to remove reference to moderated content]

This is not true at all. ZoS is very active in addressing potential exploits. Why just the other day Gina responded to a thread about 15+ shuffle dodges by blaming the players for misinterpreting buff icons...

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

The reality is that players aren't scared by ZOS.If there's something to abuse players will abuse it and there won't be any consequences thats why when an exploit gets fixed and a new one appears players are going to abuse it.

Perhaps, but their policy of not naming and shaming, which is also due to legal implications, makes it really, really hard to tell how much they are enforcing the rules. The only time you know they aren't is when someone doesn't disappear, but their investigation might have found no exploit or insufficient evidence to ban.

Pomaikai wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG

Except you MUST finally make a stand on what your policy towards cheating actually is, and then you MUST stick to it!

The ambiguity MUST stop, and it must stop NOW!

The phrase "Can result in disciplinary action." is no longer acceptable from management.

You MUST calm down. They DON'T have to do a single thing you demand of them. Your use of BOLD and CAPS doesn't make them do what you want.

God forbid you understand what emphasis is.
/facepalm

As an example, when a company fails to protect their copyrights, they lose them. In this case, if they fail to police their own game, then by default they lose that right and players become free to exploit all they want until the devs fix them.

There are two sides of this coin. ZOS just needs to let us know which side they fall on. It's pretty simple.

Intellectual copyrights as an analogy to consumer protection? That's a first. In any case, you are incorrect. As a general rule, a laches defense does not apply within the three year statute of limitations provided by copyright infringement law.

A business and its customers can contract for almost any terms. In most contracts, there is a waiver clause that essentially says the parties don't have to consistently enforce the contract against the other party and laches do not apply.

For example: "The failure of ZeniMax to exercise or enforce any right or provision of this Agreement will not constitute waiver of such right or provision."

Further, their is no law requiring consistent application of contract terms (you can waive them for one party and enforce them against another).

Having said that, businesses are subject to anti-discrimination law, ADA considerations, etc., and inconsistent enforcement is evidence to support claims under these laws. Most of you young, healthy slices of whitebread are out of luck. Maybe make a claim under public forum law.

Wreuntzylla

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

If there's an exploit you address it but it's not the players fault for finding a fault in your design of the game. This is just like what's going on in 'The Division', if players find an exploit then fix it as soon as possible. Depending on how severe the exploit is the best option is to shut down the servers.

Simply banning players for exploiting something in the game shouldn't be what everyone wants to see happen especially if the exploit was around for quite sometime; that my friend is called negligence and I'll reiterate it's not the players fault.

I wouldn't even use the word "exploiting." They are "playing" the game that they paid. Not making the surveys disappear the right way in the first place is a huge mistake by ZOS and there is no one else at fault for the results of such a dumb mistake. What did the players do? Find the spot and put the survey in their bank then go back? They earned that survey and can put it in their bank anytime they want. ZOS really messed this one up.

Last night some people found out that their bank website, which they use to deposit cash back rewards vouchers from the bank into their safety deposit box, could be used to cash the vouchers over and over.

I wouldn't even use the word "theft." They are "using" the software interface that they pay bank fees for. Leaving a hole in the system is a huge mistake by the Bank and there is no one else at fault for the results of such a dumb mistake. What did the people who transferred bank money into their account do? Deposited the voucher in the vsafety deposit box over and over? They earned that voucher and can put it in their safety deposit box whenever they want. The bank really messed this one up.

JamieAubrey

What if this was ZOS's way of making people buy the 5k Bankers

How many people heard about it and went and bought one ? Think about it

Krist

@Sunburnt_Penguin

I don't care what category you put the exploit in, if you already think this way, you will abuse the game. So go for it, see if you get banned. Why ask first? If you are so sure no one is getting in trouble, or if you not knowing means you feel it is okay, then go ahead. Personally I don't think it is okay, and I am pretty sure they will be dealing with some on this. Of course, it really is not my business at this point, them fixing it was.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Krist wrote: »

@Sunburnt_Penguin

I don't care what category you put the exploit in, if you already think this way, you will abuse the game. So go for it, see if you get banned. Why ask first? If you are so sure no one is getting in trouble, or if you not knowing means you feel it is okay, then go ahead. Personally I don't think it is okay, and I am pretty sure they will be dealing with some on this. Of course, it really is not my business at this point, them fixing it was.

@Krist
I was seperating the exploits because you seemed to be derailing the argument by bringing one "type" in to add weight to your point, to which I saw as distinctly different in severity to the "type" we were discussing and I wanted to bring it back on track.

I'm not condoning this exploit, nor was I saying I will do this. My original point was purely this: if they're not going to reprimand players for doing this "type" of exploit, then at least tell me so I can take advantage of similar exploits in the future before it gets fixed, and without fear of a ban.

Gina has said that they are reprimanding anyway so it's all good

heyewe

I have huge respect that they took immediate action on something they saw as a potentially huge exploit.
I saw the first comment here this morning and in less than 8 hours they had a plan in place and are fixing it across six different platforms. Regardless of any inconvenience, amazing response time!

nimander99

I picture a monolithic ZOS Troll (from the deep jungles of Akivir) standing on a squashed bug for some reason...

ArchMikem

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I love the TOS defense or as I like to call it, the "Goody Two Shoes" defense. Let me guess. You do exactly 30mph in a 30mph zone too.

As concerning actions to be mocked/frowned upon, I don't see that as an appropriate example.

Turelus

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

Krist

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Gina has said that they are reprimanding anyway so it's all good

For the most part you and I are actually on the same page. I admined a game before and I understand why they do not talk about reprimands, etc. I also get your point on it.

As you said, its all good.

DisgracefulMind

Turelus wrote: »

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.

As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.

daemonios

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.

As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.

Disagree. I would also like ZOS to change their stance on disciplinary actions. I don't need to know WHO got banned or suspended. But I'm 100% positive that if ZOS were to announce regularly that a number of actions were taken against exploiters, the feeling of impunity within the community, which is currently widespread, would be greatly reduced.

This feeling of impunity affects both those who cheat - because they are convinced they can keep doing so without consequence - and those who don't - because they're forced to watch cheaters get away with it.

Cathexis

Better get out the ban stick for animation cancelling, oh wait that was just an unintended consequence of the combat system and isn't considered an exploit. Can we get a charter for which broken game mechanics are and aren't OK to use?

Verbalinkontinenz

kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »

Bot all disappeared (there may be some powerful one but how to find them). ZO did a really nice job banning them.

well, there are not that much bots ingame anymore, but still many. see and recognize them every day.