ZOS Stance on Exploiting Game Bugs

Turelus

Cathexis wrote: »

Better get out the ban stick for animation cancelling, oh wait that was just an unintended consequence of the combat system and isn't considered an exploit. Can we get a charter for which broken game mechanics are and aren't OK to use?

That's what CCP games do as can be seen here: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits

daemonios wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.

As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.

Disagree. I would also like ZOS to change their stance on disciplinary actions. I don't need to know WHO got banned or suspended. But I'm 100% positive that if ZOS were to announce regularly that a number of actions were taken against exploiters, the feeling of impunity within the community, which is currently widespread, would be greatly reduced.

This feeling of impunity affects both those who cheat - because they are convinced they can keep doing so without consequence - and those who don't - because they're forced to watch cheaters get away with it.

Pretty much this. If they're announcing they took action, it shows they do and people might think twice about doing it. Rather than this "cheat you won't be banned" mentality which I have seen grow in the game over the last two years.

DisgracefulMind

Turelus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Better get out the ban stick for animation cancelling, oh wait that was just an unintended consequence of the combat system and isn't considered an exploit. Can we get a charter for which broken game mechanics are and aren't OK to use?

That's what CCP games do as can be seen here: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits

daemonios wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.

As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.

Disagree. I would also like ZOS to change their stance on disciplinary actions. I don't need to know WHO got banned or suspended. But I'm 100% positive that if ZOS were to announce regularly that a number of actions were taken against exploiters, the feeling of impunity within the community, which is currently widespread, would be greatly reduced.

This feeling of impunity affects both those who cheat - because they are convinced they can keep doing so without consequence - and those who don't - because they're forced to watch cheaters get away with it.

Pretty much this. If they're announcing they took action, it shows they do and people might think twice about doing it. Rather than this "cheat you won't be banned" mentality which I have seen grow in the game over the last two years.

I see your point more now. I agree that they should make a statement and at least give us a ballpark figure of who took consequences for their actions. I'm just telling you, judging by ZoS' previous patterns, that they don't want to do that, as they're very much against public information in regards to bans and account disciplinary actions.

Perhaps they will release a statement and say "This is what happened, we banned over x amount of players. Exploits do have consequences in ESO."

I just doubt that they will release anything specific at all.

Verbalinkontinenz

Turelus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Better get out the ban stick for animation cancelling, oh wait that was just an unintended consequence of the combat system and isn't considered an exploit. Can we get a charter for which broken game mechanics are and aren't OK to use?

That's what CCP games do as can be seen here: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits

daemonios wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Seems I missed a lot here while I was out last night.

I'm really happy with how ZOS handled the issue yesterday, from first post on the forums about it being there to patched out in less than 24 hours. This is a massive improvement from them and I hope we see the same going forward in future.

I do have some concerns though. It's clear this was something which many people knew about (and reported) before it made it to the forums. So why was ZOS able to mobilise so fast last night, but not when the issues were first reported?

Is this because (as many claim) issues are not bothered with until the wider public know about them. In which case are those who do know free to abuse them as long as they can until they become public knowledge.

Is it because of lack of clear communication between the bug reports/tickets teams (which I believe are outsourced?) and the ZOS developers? In which case is there a better direct line players can use for reporting exploits? I would imagine most ZOS staff don't get a chance to keep up with their inbox on the forums due to how many messages they get a day.

Lastly I want to know if ZOS like other companies will within the next week make a statement about what happened, how they took actions and give some figures of accounts sanctioned. I
I am not asking for permanent bans on every account involved, however at the least those who heavily used this should be stripped of their gains in some way and have some form of suspension assuming this is their first case.

In closing I wanted to link three years of CCP Games security presentations at EVE fanfest to give others an idea of what other companies do for the betterment of their games. Also this company is smaller than ZOS with the game holding less subscribers, this clearly debunks the myth than banning players for breaking ToS/EULA will kill a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vd-CpnjvAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CZR9w3ftjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBD7CL9oQqE

You actually, can, in fact, contact ZoS devs on the forums and explain what you find to them. I promise you they will respond in a timely manner. If it's a major exploit, they definitely will.

As for what communicating about this exploit and actions, ZoS chooses not to disclose information; that is their choice. To keep repeating the desire for them to do so is redundant. In the situation today, action was taken. That should be enough for you to know.

Disagree. I would also like ZOS to change their stance on disciplinary actions. I don't need to know WHO got banned or suspended. But I'm 100% positive that if ZOS were to announce regularly that a number of actions were taken against exploiters, the feeling of impunity within the community, which is currently widespread, would be greatly reduced.

This feeling of impunity affects both those who cheat - because they are convinced they can keep doing so without consequence - and those who don't - because they're forced to watch cheaters get away with it.

Pretty much this. If they're announcing they took action, it shows they do and people might think twice about doing it. Rather than this "cheat you won't be banned" mentality which I have seen grow in the game over the last two years.

lol yes. now there will be a "u dont need to do anything wrong, and still might be banned for exploiting because zos is not able to write correct autoban-scripts"-mentality growing.

Abra

someone bragged today in guild chat hat he did it and nothing happened to him and he has still hundreds of gold materials.

Alcast

Abra wrote: »

someone bragged today in guild chat hat he did it and nothing happened to him and he has still hundreds of gold materials.

Report him. He deserves it for his own stupidity.

Also, @ZOS_GinaBruno When can we expect actions against those exploiters? IF there are any?

Turelus

So two more threads have appeared recently showing videos of players exploiting broken mechanics or gaining access to areas they shouldn't in PvP.

Add to this the recent and very public outcry from the community regarding how the survey exploit was handled.

Are ZOS ready to sit down and start talking with us about this yet, or are we going to continue to have a game where exploiting of game mechanics to gain advantages is the meta and norm.

We try to have open and polite dialogues with you about these issues but get moderated because of the "ZOS doesn't talk about exploits or moderation".

I understand having rules in place to stop people posting exploits or complaining their troll/flame posts were removed but when it comes to discussions on moderation and exploits which are aimed at improving the game can we please talk about it (with ZOS joining in) rather than have everything removed.