Xantaria wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I can't even..! Why people are defending Animation Cancelling is beyond me.

Because it's the only thing keeping me and all competitive players here?

This game would be slow and boring as *** without animation cancelling.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Also, they have to change the way AC works whether they like it or not (or rather completely eradicate AC, which is much more preferred) because like I said, macro-ers are at large. And no, fixing/removing AC would not screw blocking and roll-dodging. There is no need to cancel animations in the first place. If you choose to perform a movement, the whole animation has to finish before executing another movement. It's a choice with opportunity costs which gives even more reward to the player in terms of timing and 'finesse' as stated by @ZOS initially. Which is also why I find that the previous Ultimate generation system is far more suitable than the current version.

Kwivur wrote: »

beerninja wrote: »

I'll just leave these here.

Who care's about how it looks? It's effective.

Xantaria wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

They would have come out and said Animation Canceling if that is what they were going to do. This is more than likely something that will help animation canceling

Nestor wrote: »

This might be related to something I see in combat. When I am weaving (mixing up skills and light attacks) sometimes things seem to get jumbled together and nothing happens. Maybe it's because more than one animation is getting applied at the same time, instead of in some order that would let each one happen or happen and get canceled.

Besides, Priority means what gets to go first, not what gets to be canceled.

I agree it probably will be more for things like hitting WB then Medium attack and then the medium attack animation plays before the character takes damage and knocked back by the WB.

blabafat wrote: »

@dsalter How is animation canceling bad? It's a layer of skill. It's something that needs to be practiced in order to be competitive in end game content and PvP.

Unfortunately more people than not use Macros to pull this off as they lack the skill to do it manually and/or can't do it consistently when they want to. As for information reference, watch the skill bars on their videos, the evidence is there. I wouldn't take my word for it on a statement like that either.

WRONG.

Nobody in competitive endgame uses Macros.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Some people will never understand that macros can't just generate whatever combo you want them to do. There is a global cooldown on skill use.

Macros can not get past the cooldown, but every category has it's own cooldown. Skills have their own cooldown, light attacks have their own cooldown, bashing has it's own cooldown, and ultimates have their own cooldown.

When using, a skill, you can not use another skill immediately, but you can use (for example) a bash immediately. So you can theoretically make a macro that chains all 4 categories together and makes 4 attacks hit the opponent at virtually the same time.

Wollust wrote: »

Whatever you can do with macros you're able to do without, ofc it requires practice and patience which a lot of people simply don't have, hence the accusations of using macros.

That's the problem basically. Not that animation cancelling cannot be done without macros, but that macros trivialize it to the point where anyone can use it, not just the people who mastered the timing.

And nobody will be able to convince me that if there is something that makes people perform better, they will not do it.
It is human nature to always take the path of least resistance. Just look at the rampant cheating in FPS games.

If competitive players don't use macros, the ones that stream should show their hands in the mini screen. Asian players show their hands....

I am fascinated by the fact that every streamer presses their skill button, for the most part, three times. I'll hand it to Mojican, at least some of his button presses are not triples.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I can't even..! Why people are defending Animation Cancelling is beyond me.

Because it's the only thing keeping me and all competitive players here?

This game would be slow and boring as *** without animation cancelling.

@Xantaria
Boring? AC by itself made the combat system dull with no real risk-reward mechanics. I'll explain to you why so bear with me.

AC has rendered attack speed mechanics in this game to be completely useless and it definitely has opened up opportunities for macro users. Hence why I feel animation and impact timing mechanics should be revised and tweaked by the Devs.

Also, they have to change the way AC works whether they like it or not (or rather completely eradicate AC, which is much more preferred) because like I said, macro-ers are at large. And no, fixing/removing AC would not screw blocking and roll-dodging. There is no need to cancel animations in the first place. If you choose to perform a movement, the whole animation has to finish before executing another movement. It's a choice with opportunity costs which gives even more reward to the player in terms of timing and 'finesse' as stated by @ZOS initially. Which is also why I find that the previous Ultimate generation system is far more suitable than the current version.

I hope you're not advocating for AC as it opens the door for a lot of exploits as seen currently in the game. I hate it but I still begrudgingly use AC just to match the competitive level of the game in PvP and PvE to a certain extent.

Below is an extract from another thread which points out how AC and its byproducts have affected the game as a whole. His explanation may sound condescending to some but he has an extremely valid point and I can understand where he came from.

@AtmaDarkwolf wrote:
the way i see it, if animations were NOT cancel-able, or rather, to get benefits of a said skill you MUST let the animation complete(as it should be imo) this would separate weak and stronger skills (as the above said, weaker ones having shorter/instant animations while more powerful abilities would have longer animations) one would find REASON to chain them in specific order, or utilize them at proper times. One would use smaller/shorter attacks/skills to help toss his opponent off balance, then once that is achieved(stun, fear, knocked down, off balance, whatever) one would queue up his more powerful attacks for that 'smack-down' - IE a system that would take skill, timing, intelligence, and planning (and cunning) to achieve.

Not this 'L2P NOOB' system where one can become 'awesomesauce' by learning to block for an instant right after 'starting' his most powerful attack.

What I instead see here, is those who claim its 'part of the system' - those who claim 'it takes skill' (IE: the L2P crowd) and those who b!tch and moan about 'thems dammed pvecarebears tryin' to ruins our gamez' are all one and the same.

They do NOT want 'true skill' or 'timing' or any form of 'planning and thought' in the actual game-play. They want their 1(or 2) trick ponies and thier counter-trike kiddee play-style preserved. they DO NOT care about the survival of the game, as a whole, preserved, they simply want 'THEIR' time in this game 'THEIR' way.


I actually think the stam regen nerf while blocking was put in as a (VERY weak and not really thought out well) way to FIX this broken system.

Once again, Those who claim over and over how its 'part of the intended system' please, prove it, post a link of a dev actually saying this, get a dev to come join the discussion, or make an official statement. Please. Any of them even if its some random post on some random discussion on some far off random website. I challenge anyone to come up with any actual 'official' dev statement. At any time(before or after launch) of the games development. It was an oversite, a mistake, and its a bug/unintended result of making it so that players can have their 'Oh fudge' moment/save button and NOT get pancaked because they were stuck casting when the big red lands on their heads. NOT an official 'we want u to have instant cast anything'

Faulgor wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Ha ha ha ha,,, I know your not naive, so you must be either using sarcasm or being defensive.

I keep seeing folks compare AC to things like string combos in Street fighter. I hate to point it out to these folks but that is exactly why programmable gaming controllers and gaming keyboard with 3rd party software exist. These folks (whether they are guilty of it or not) make this point for me every time they try to defend it.

But like I said, don't ever take my word for anything, go look for it yourself and you will see. A person only has so many fingers on their hand and you can't assign the same key to two different combat functions. No you can't prove if it is skill or macro, someone could have perfect timing, every time, and have eight fingers on one hand,,,, Its possible I guess.

As a Street Fighter player ... no, it's nothing like it.
I really wish ESO had actual combos with frame windows to link moves and stuff (you know, like blocking power attacks and exploiting with heavy attacks was originally intended?), but animation canceling makes everything look disjointed from what is actually happening in combat. In games like Street Fighter, the whole gameplay depends on being able to see your own and your opponent's moves, because you need these visual cues to play the risk/reward game.
And linking moves only works safely when you get a hit confirm, something that is entirely absent from ESO. Here, you don't have to adjust your "combos" aka animation canceling at all depending on the actions of your opponent, just press the sequence you have memorized .If you try something similar in Street Fighter you will get a huge punish in your face.

As far as execution goes, maybe AC is similar to some easier SF combos. But I fail to see how that's a good thing when the whole risk/reward part is missing from the gameplay.

Faulgor wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Ha ha ha ha,,, I know your not naive, so you must be either using sarcasm or being defensive.

I keep seeing folks compare AC to things like string combos in Street fighter. I hate to point it out to these folks but that is exactly why programmable gaming controllers and gaming keyboard with 3rd party software exist. These folks (whether they are guilty of it or not) make this point for me every time they try to defend it.

But like I said, don't ever take my word for anything, go look for it yourself and you will see. A person only has so many fingers on their hand and you can't assign the same key to two different combat functions. No you can't prove if it is skill or macro, someone could have perfect timing, every time, and have eight fingers on one hand,,,, Its possible I guess.

As a Street Fighter player ... no, it's nothing like it.
I really wish ESO had actual combos with frame windows to link moves and stuff (you know, like blocking power attacks and exploiting with heavy attacks was originally intended?), but animation canceling makes everything look disjointed from what is actually happening in combat. In games like Street Fighter, the whole gameplay depends on being able to see your own and your opponent's moves, because you need these visual cues to play the risk/reward game.
And linking moves only works safely when you get a hit confirm, something that is entirely absent from ESO. Here, you don't have to adjust your "combos" aka animation canceling at all depending on the actions of your opponent, just press the sequence you have memorized .If you try something similar in Street Fighter you will get a huge punish in your face.

As far as execution goes, maybe AC is similar to some easier SF combos. But I fail to see how that's a good thing when the whole risk/reward part is missing from the gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-4ooJ-FRTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtuA5we0RZU

Destruent wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Ok an example of what I see in macros that are used, you can watch videos and find your own.

Primary bar is loaded with fighting skills
Secondary bar is loaded with DoT and Shields or something to that effect.

Multiple versions of this one:
Macro = Bar swap > Combo of timed effects > Bar swap
in other words 1 button to swap bars and load their effects and swap back so they can keep fighting.

It is impossible for the timing of these to be exact every time all while moving your character around. Players just don't have that many fingers.

Also:
Macro = some type of weave to be used in conjunction with reactionary fighting from the primary bar. this allows folks to adapt while fighting but still maximize damage where that move is called for. If AC comes into play this is where it would be.

Sry m8...you don't need any macros for this...it isn't difficult at all to do so, so stop complaining about macros. You even don't know who uses macros. So don't call anyone a macro-user. If you can proove it, it's ok. But i doubt you can.

Takllin wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

"Base Game Patch Features & Content


---> Prioritization of animations during combat <---
Improved facial animations for Mac
…and more!"

did anyone else see that and think "WAIT THEY FINALLY ACCEPT ANIMATION CANCELLING IS BAD!" ?

Source: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/01/20/thieves-guild-first-look

Well they did tell us awhile back that they were looking into ways make combat fluid and at the same time do away with Animation Canceling. This is probably the first step in that direction.

Now before anyone goes on their tirade about "Oh Animation Canceling adds skill to the game" or "Animation Canceling is not good or bad" "Or its an intended feature" etc...is missing the point completely:

Any game the requires me to cancel animations to complete content is fundamentally broken

Animation Canceling at its core violates the The Principles of User Interface Design.

In particular Animation Canceling Violates rule ##4 of the Principles of User Interface Design which states:

• The feedback principle: The design should keep users informed of actions or interpretations, changes of state or condition, and errors or exceptions that are relevant and of interest to the user through clear, concise, and unambiguous language familiar to users.

Using the Default Interface of ESO Animation canceling violates this principle.

ESO's Default interface relies on giving accurate feedback to the user with animations, ]when those animations can be hidden, obscured, or canceled it makes the program difficult and cumbersome for its users in essence these principles which has been the accepted industry standard for user interface designs tells you that Animation Canceling is broken and don't belong in this game. The game IS a User Interface, it allows you to interact with a program , thats what a User Interface is, a game is just a "fun UI"

(Not everyone does nor should be required to run addons and addons are no where listed in the system requirements to run the game)

The User Interface of ESO should be designed with the Default UI in mind and Animation Canceling does not fit and violates UI design rules by allowing people to hide animations which are deisnged to give the user of the game accurate feedback. No one should be required to run addons to know what just happened when someone AC an attack and 2 skills, anything the user can't figure out with the default interface is fundamentally flawed and broken.

So at this point, its clear that Animation Canceling is just a broken feature of ESO they have never gotten around to fixing. Its not even debatable at this point, AC breaks the industry accepted standards of user interface design, arguing this otherwise would get you laughed out of any Software Engineering conference in the country....User Interfaces that are designed correctly DO NOT hide nor have the ability to hide useful, pertinent, important information from its users...its not even a debatable point.

I personally hope they leave AC in the game as is, as i use it religiously to hide animations, AC Crushy Shock weaves, etc...it makes my game life easier at times, but looking at it clearly from a design perspective its clearly broken...the Game is DESIGNED around feeback being given to its users via animations, canceling those animations breaks that feedback mechanism, its really only broken in PVP though, in PVE it really don't break anything per se, but PVP folks use AC as a form of ofusication to hide their abilties while still hitting you, tactics like this has been going on as long as games have been around in one form another.

I often use Boundless Storm to hide my Crystal Fragment procs, really hard to see my hands glowing under those conditions, thats actually another form of obfuscation thats doing the same thing Animation canceling does(hiding visual feedback from your oppoenent) just doing it in a different way.

What content do you need to utilize animation cancelling to complete?

I've yet to run across any where it is necessary.

I've also yet to run across anyone utilizing animation cancelling where I didn't know what they did to me.

Vet Maelstrom Arena. if you don't animation abuse cancel then you wont get far on some bosses

Can't think of a single boss I needed to use Animation Cancelling on. I've done it on a Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc, and Stamina DK.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Zimm wrote: »

What?!?! Dude or dudette I think you're missing the point. In real life if I decided to to pick up a cup I don't get locked into that motion. Hell I could reach for the cup and then dodge roll out of the way of a train no questions asked real life. Why I'm reaching for a cup in front of a train I don't know but if you can't react in REAL TIME then WHY TF would you want to play this "Action MMO,"?? Maybe you SHOULD need to let the animation complete to deal damage to them, I could see that as a valid argument, but no way in hell I could even come close to agreeing that I should have to deal with the consequences if I decide to use an ability and say two people start casting some noise at me, no way.

@Zimm
Firstly, you've completely missed my point as the mechanics of no AC gives greater risk-reward (in tandem with the old Ulti generation system) and it offers a much more polished game design as people won't just spam and spam buttons, it actually makes the player give more thought on what to use in his/her arsenal given that the skill bars are locked in-combat. The current unintended system makes it all so confusing that sometimes (and most of the times against people who are well-versed in AC) you can't seem to know what your opponents are using and you don't even have time to react because the animation gets cancelled and damage is still dealt onto you.

Secondly, I'm not too against AC like @AtmaDarkwolf. Unlike him, I actually see the benefit of cancelling animations. What I have problem is that even when the ability is cancelled, damage IS STILL DEALT. That's the biggest flaw in AC currently and that's what I have beef with. If you cancel the animation, damage shouldn't be dealt at all and that's the way it should've been. To deal damage, one has to let the animation complete its cycle and by then and only then can damage be applied onto the victim. This is also to say that you can cancel the animation should you get into a sticky situation.
And please do us a favour, leave IRL situations out of this, conversations like that can derail a thread from its actual discussion.
With that said, the current system is rubbish, lazy and buggy. Again, I think a lot of people are confused with how I feel for AC. My bad though as I should've made that clearer.