Macros: legit fair play or cheating?

Lilarna · August 2015

This seems quite on the topic : this guy made a video last year about macros, asking this simple question : Do Macros provide an unfair advantage?

You can go straight to 2:30 for a look at that weapon swap / purge / weapon swap.

And now, someone come tell me that they will always manage to land such a fast weapon swap / skill / weapon swap, all the time, when they play, with perfect precision. Come on !

Now figure out a triple shield combo, with all the right animations cancelled at the right time. Set up a duel between that one-button=triple-shield guy against somebody who casts them one by one, of course there's a disadvantage on the long run.

For me, the answer is clear : yes, macros provide a clear advantage, because of the optimum efficiency they allow, because of a timing that never fails. Because animations can be cancelled perfectly thanks to macros. And not just during the first hour of your session, because you're focused enough and not too tired.

But most people who scream after macros users believe in some mythical "insta-kill macro combo", like @Master_Kas demonstrates very well when he evokes the "4 button in 1 second", which is beside the point. A "good" macro user will just weave in all the optimal stuff in the right place into his regular skill buttons, and that will totally optimize his game-play.

If I have complaints to make about macros, it's for their defensive advantage, not the offensive one.

Emma_Overload · August 2015

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..

tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

LOL, NO. That happens just by binding your keybinds to the mouse buttons on a gaming mouse... no macros required. The reason you don't see the "key press" animation on the ability bar is because some mouse drivers fire the Key Down and Key Up command in very quick succession, so the animation is skipped.

This is exactly the kind of misinformation that makes experienced gamers roll their eyes on threads like this, but when we point out the truth, we get accused of defending cheaters.

/facepalm

SkylarkAU · August 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..

tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

LOL, NO. That happens just by binding your keybinds to the mouse buttons on a gaming mouse... no macros required. The reason you don't see the "key press" animation on the ability bar is because some mouse drivers fire the Key Down and Key Up command in very quick succession, so the animation is skipped.

This is exactly the kind of misinformation that makes experienced gamers roll their eyes on threads like this, but when we point out the truth, we get accused of defending cheaters. /facepalm

Thanks for the info, it seems like this macro stuff is finally becoming demystified..

rfennell_ESO · August 2015

The real problem is that no cheater ever admits to cheating.

Even after they are caught they will find a way to be a victim or come off as some sort of magnanimous saint.

But, but but but. ZOS putting themselves in a position to enforce or legislate rules on everyone with macro enabled mice and keyboards is the real culprit; or to actually create a system that can easily and trivially be abused by every semi hardcore gamer that has a good mouse or keyboard is foolishness.

At the end of the day the macro usage is pervasive. It's used at a far greater scope than many are willing to acknowledge, and it's used because it provides an advantage.

There is nothing preventing anyone (even those without gaming keyboards and mice) from just setting up every key to be a macro that does light attack->ability->bash/block. In many cases setting things up so an auto bar switch to an ability which is then fired and block casted followed by a bar switch back to the main bar. There is a freeware program that does macroing and scripting, if I mentioned it it would be edited out. Wonder why they edit out that program's name?

If you have seen (and by seen I mean didn't see) the dawnbreaker abuse... where pvp toughguy is able to dawnbreaker you without you ever seeing it happen... then you don't do much pvping. It's absolutely a macro in most cases now, and it's not "skill". Just grinding stuff and trying to block cancel an ultimate with no pressure is not a surefire thing due to lag or just the nature of casting anything in this game. I know I can't do it 100% of the time and I know how to animation cancel. That's in a no risk no cyro lag environment with a good computer, a good connection and gaming peripherals.

Even with that said, it's on ZOS. They built the combat system with no gcd (there is no gcd in this game, why people keep saying there is... I really don't know what to say). The entire system creates an artificial gcd by requiring some part of animation to exist. The fact that certain abilities and functions can be nearly entirely deprived of that animation is the problem.

As for the question of how do I tell if someone is a macro abuser? It's actually simple... if you never see most animations they are a macroer. If you only see weapon movements and never see any casting animations they are macroed out. That's why you macro, that's the advantage to it... eliminating unneeded animations.

sadownik · August 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The real problem is that no cheater ever admits to cheating.

Even after they are caught they will find a way to be a victim or come off as some sort of magnanimous saint.

But, but but but. ZOS putting themselves in a position to enforce or legislate rules on everyone with macro enabled mice and keyboards is the real culprit; or to actually create a system that can easily and trivially be abused by every semi hardcore gamer that has a good mouse or keyboard is foolishness.

At the end of the day the macro usage is pervasive. It's used at a far greater scope than many are willing to acknowledge, and it's used because it provides an advantage.

There is nothing preventing anyone (even those without gaming keyboards and mice) from just setting up every key to be a macro that does light attack->ability->bash/block. In many cases setting things up so an auto bar switch to an ability which is then fired and block casted followed by a bar switch back to the main bar. There is a freeware program that does macroing and scripting, if I mentioned it it would be edited out. Wonder why they edit out that program's name?

If you have seen (and by seen I mean didn't see) the dawnbreaker abuse... where pvp toughguy is able to dawnbreaker you without you ever seeing it happen... then you don't do much pvping. It's absolutely a macro in most cases now, and it's not "skill". Just grinding stuff and trying to block cancel an ultimate with no pressure is not a surefire thing due to lag or just the nature of casting anything in this game. I know I can't do it 100% of the time and I know how to animation cancel. That's in a no risk no cyro lag environment with a good computer, a good connection and gaming peripherals.

Even with that said, it's on ZOS. They built the combat system with no gcd (there is no gcd in this game, why people keep saying there is... I really don't know what to say). The entire system creates an artificial gcd by requiring some part of animation to exist. The fact that certain abilities and functions can be nearly entirely deprived of that animation is the problem.

As for the question of how do I tell if someone is a macro abuser? It's actually simple... if you never see most animations they are a macroer. If you only see weapon movements and never see any casting animations they are macroed out. That's why you macro, that's the advantage to it... eliminating unneeded animations.

I also would like to know more about this supposed gcd.

rfennell_ESO · August 2015

sadownik wrote: »

I also would like to know more about this supposed gcd.

As far as I know there isn't one.

There is a animation lock of sorts that acts as one, but it's not actually a gcd. The last animation can't be cancelled, thing is the highest priority animations all have different draw times; but they have to be drawn and that's what keeps being referred to as a gcd.

To the incredulous: you can macro steel tornado to block. Don't take my word for it, try it and see how many you can get off versus chaining the ability in succession.

k2blader · August 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The real problem is that no cheater ever admits to cheating.

Yep. And even then, cheaters will get mad at people saying it's not right to cheat, and will defend their cheating while trying to pretend they aren't. Or those who claim to not cheat will (for some unknown reason) start trolling people saying cheating is going on and it's wrong. That's why the word "skill" in this game is relatively meaningless. Yeah, I enjoy watching certain people's vids as much as anyone. But for me that's based more on their personas, and my belief (erring or not) that they aren't cheaters, than anything else.

usmcjdking · August 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

melodeath wrote: »

so by that logic every athlete should be getting steroids aswell.. because you know.. everyone can buy steroids

When I was in high school a large amount of the football team was using steroids.

The 7 years of Lance Armstrong winning the tour de France are all vacated titles because the entire field was dirty and there was no one clean to revert the titles to.

Serena Williams looks like a heavy weight boxer and is prone to raging on the court.

Manny Pacaio didn't fight Floyd Mayweather for 5 or 6 years because he wouldn't submit to olympic style drug testing claiming he was "afraid of needles".

Have you ever heard to East Germany in the Olympics?

You watch football? You're watching teams full of roided out freaks.

Remember all the black women sprinters from the USA Olympics? Every one was a roider.

Point being, while it might not be "every" athlete is using steroids... it's a lot of them. The ones where it's the difference between "average" and "great" it's the bulk of them.

Pacquiao*

rfennell_ESO · August 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

Pacquiao*

Heh looking back I realized I butchered it.

For what it's worth I like Manny, but I'm sort of dubious of a guy that started out as a light flyweight moving up that many weight classes. He moved up 9 weight classes... Nope never been caught, but it defies logic... and logic is he had help getting there.

If he only could go up 4 more than he could fight Serena Williams in a light heavyweight championship of dopers that haven't been caught.

SkylarkAU · August 2015

Macros come in different variations, some are innocuous and are in common use across all MMOs (including ESO)..

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95720/using-razer-macros-to-change-abilities-from-activate-on-release-to-press

this kind of thing I don't have a problem with..

NGP · August 2015

:O Will I get banned for using Roomba all the time?!

SkylarkAU · August 2015

NGP wrote: »

:O Will I get banned for using Roomba all the time?!

maybe if you're using it as a mount

byrom101b16_ESO · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

There is no way for you to prove that someone used a macro on you, therefore no one will ever be banned for it. Macros aren't going anywhere just because there isn't anything ZOS can do to detect or stop it without causing a whole bunch of worse issues.

FYI, the culprit in your instant death is less macros and more ZOS poor math(multiplicative stuff that should be additive), broken penetration, broken/unbalanced skill combinations(all of the stupid **** you can do with expert hunter), being able to bug set bonuses perma on, certain damage bonuses stacking infinitely, various other bugged/exploitable skills, lag, champion point power creep, ect.

It's easy to mitigate against - put a global cooldown equal to the normal ability cast time on all abilities. This would also stop manual animation cancelling and all the crapola that goes with that too...

Lordlevi · August 2015

Macros are useful but cheating nah! but if it is against TOS... i wouldn't do it.

NGP · August 2015

Has any ZOS given any answer on this post yet? Give me a page number pls.

Emma_Overload · August 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The real problem is that no cheater ever admits to cheating.

Even after they are caught they will find a way to be a victim or come off as some sort of magnanimous saint.

But, but but but. ZOS putting themselves in a position to enforce or legislate rules on everyone with macro enabled mice and keyboards is the real culprit; or to actually create a system that can easily and trivially be abused by every semi hardcore gamer that has a good mouse or keyboard is foolishness.

At the end of the day the macro usage is pervasive. It's used at a far greater scope than many are willing to acknowledge, and it's used because it provides an advantage.

There is nothing preventing anyone (even those without gaming keyboards and mice) from just setting up every key to be a macro that does light attack->ability->bash/block. In many cases setting things up so an auto bar switch to an ability which is then fired and block casted followed by a bar switch back to the main bar. There is a freeware program that does macroing and scripting, if I mentioned it it would be edited out. Wonder why they edit out that program's name?

If you have seen (and by seen I mean didn't see) the dawnbreaker abuse... where pvp toughguy is able to dawnbreaker you without you ever seeing it happen... then you don't do much pvping. It's absolutely a macro in most cases now, and it's not "skill". Just grinding stuff and trying to block cancel an ultimate with no pressure is not a surefire thing due to lag or just the nature of casting anything in this game. I know I can't do it 100% of the time and I know how to animation cancel. That's in a no risk no cyro lag environment with a good computer, a good connection and gaming peripherals.

Even with that said, it's on ZOS. They built the combat system with no gcd (there is no gcd in this game, why people keep saying there is... I really don't know what to say). The entire system creates an artificial gcd by requiring some part of animation to exist. The fact that certain abilities and functions can be nearly entirely deprived of that animation is the problem.

As for the question of how do I tell if someone is a macro abuser? It's actually simple... if you never see most animations they are a macroer. If you only see weapon movements and never see any casting animations they are macroed out. That's why you macro, that's the advantage to it... eliminating unneeded animations.

I agree with what you said about a GCD, that's why I don't like to use that term. Careful testing will show that different abilities and other actions have different cooldowns - there's nothing "global" about them.