Macros: legit fair play or cheating?

contact.opiumb16_ESO

OLIVI3R wrote: »

People with macros are cheaters.

People with many better keyboards are cheaters.

People with more Champion Points are cheaters.

People with better gear are cheaters.

People that use food/drinks are cheaters.

People with more skill than me are cheaters.

And after all that the community is unhappy about the damage nerf in Cyrodil? You were literally asking for it

Nice troll !

contact.opiumb16_ESO

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS. It is just a combination of skills, as if you cliked it by yourself. Example : vampires bane followed by toppling charge followed light attack followed by jabs.

Server overload with third party softwares are not, and those are the problem. Those have a simple mechanic : whenever you press a key, the software give thousands of virtual key strokes to overload each frame of the server in a second. The result is that the server release everything at the same time. Everyone have experienced this at least one time in the death recap : being killed by let's say 8 lava whip, or 8 sap essence (or any other instant cast, don't work with channeled spells) in a sec (in recount or equivalent you see attacks are made in about a 0.001s interval). This is a cheat, not allowed by zos but well knowned.

Leandor

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS. It is just a combination of skills, as if you cliked it by yourself. Example : vampires bane followed by toppling charge followed light attack followed by jabs.

No. ZOS neither condemned nor approved usage of special functions provided by dedicated hardware. Their only ever publicly announced stance is that automation is not allowed, with no differentiation between first-, second- or third-party software. In fact, all three are included.

The post you probably are referring to only states that the use of gaming keyboards is explicitly permitted and that automation is not. The usual beating around the bush when it comes to this topic, and easily misunderstood (as shown by your post). Of course they can't forbid you to play with the hardware you have. But if you use your hardware to the full capacity, be ready to take the consequence.

Also please don't start with "they can't detect it". That's what all those professional athletes thought as well, and look where that did take track & field...

So please refrain from posting half-truths like that. I wouldn't mind it, if it wouldn't possibly lure people into doing things that could result in loss of their account, but it does.

Wreuntzylla

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

Kobaal

Ace got macro'd:

Dru1076

Kobaal wrote: »

Ace got macro'd:

Careful examination of the evidence reveals that Ace has in fact been ganked. Note the angle of the arrows... Strongly indicating a cross fire ambush.

Leandor

Dru1076 wrote: »

Kobaal wrote: »

Ace got macro'd:

Careful examination of the evidence reveals that Ace has in fact been ganked. Note the angle of the arrows... Strongly indicating a cross fire ambush.

Since he survived, must be a shield stack sorc.

SkylarkAU

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..


tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

Sharee

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..


tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi @Leandor ,

Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.

SkylarkAU

Sharee wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..


tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi @Leandor ,

Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.

I've seen that, but I've also seen references to support tickets that say it's ok. If mum and dad say different things, which is it?

Sharee

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..


tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi @Leandor ,

Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.

I've seen that, but I've also seen references to support tickets that say it's ok. If mum and dad say different things, which is it?

A privately sent answer is only binding to the person it was sent to. A public answer is binding for everyone. So unless you have a support ticket sent to you, specifically, that it is ok, then you should go with the public answer.

Also, a support ticket is answered by a single CSR, which might have made a mistake(misunderstood the question).
A public answer on the other hand has to go through a company approval/peer review before being posted, so there is less chance for it being wrong(even tho it is not impossible, of course).

Leandor

Would you guys please remove my @-tag from your quotes? It's again one of those legalese discussions that I do not really care to follow and it gets on my nerves to be highlighted each and every post...

SkylarkAU

Sharee wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

You can tell it's a macro key bind if abilities are going off but the buttons/icons on the ability bar aren't being depressed..


tbh, as someone who's asked about macro key binding in the past and having read through pages and pages of posts (and no word from the mods) I'm starting to think that a macro key bind that would say activate 2 buff abilities with one button press aren't a problem? On the other hand it is perfectly clear that macro's that automate playing/farming/etc are not allowed.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi ,

Macros and addons that allow players to automate and perform multiple actions with a single keystroke is a violation of our Terms of Service. All examples you provided do fall under automation, and as such are not allowed via our Terms of Service.

I've seen that, but I've also seen references to support tickets that say it's ok. If mum and dad say different things, which is it?

A privately sent answer is only binding to the person it was sent to. A public answer is binding for everyone. So unless you have a support ticket sent to you, specifically, that it is ok, then you should go with the public answer.

Also, a support ticket is answered by a single CSR, which might have made a mistake(misunderstood the question).
A public answer on the other hand has to go through a company approval/peer review before being posted, so there is less chance for it being wrong(even tho it is not impossible, of course).

It all reminds me of the situation with the mundus stones where it wasn't getting acknowledged or patched and nobody was getting banned so more people were taking advantage just to keep up.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Leandor wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS. It is just a combination of skills, as if you cliked it by yourself. Example : vampires bane followed by toppling charge followed light attack followed by jabs.

No. ZOS neither condemned nor approved usage of special functions provided by dedicated hardware. Their only ever publicly announced stance is that automation is not allowed, with no differentiation between first-, second- or third-party software. In fact, all three are included.

The post you probably are referring to only states that the use of gaming keyboards is explicitly permitted and that automation is not. The usual beating around the bush when it comes to this topic, and easily misunderstood (as shown by your post). Of course they can't forbid you to play with the hardware you have. But if you use your hardware to the full capacity, be ready to take the consequence.

Also please don't start with "they can't detect it". That's what all those professional athletes thought as well, and look where that did take track & field...

So please refrain from posting half-truths like that. I wouldn't mind it, if it wouldn't possibly lure people into doing things that could result in loss of their account, but it does.

Well, if i remember correctly, they stated this is not on a thread but on a eso live. They stated that gaming hardware is ok but not server overload softwares and other kind of cheats. I guess i can find the source of this if i have some time today.

Sharee

Leandor wrote: »

Would you guys please remove my @-tag from your quotes? It's again one of those legalese discussions that I do not really care to follow and it gets on my nerves to be highlighted each and every post...

Sorry

I have disabled the forum "@" notifications for myself a long time ago. Last thing i need is more inbox spam.

Leandor

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS. It is just a combination of skills, as if you cliked it by yourself. Example : vampires bane followed by toppling charge followed light attack followed by jabs.

No. ZOS neither condemned nor approved usage of special functions provided by dedicated hardware. Their only ever publicly announced stance is that automation is not allowed, with no differentiation between first-, second- or third-party software. In fact, all three are included.

The post you probably are referring to only states that the use of gaming keyboards is explicitly permitted and that automation is not. The usual beating around the bush when it comes to this topic, and easily misunderstood (as shown by your post). Of course they can't forbid you to play with the hardware you have. But if you use your hardware to the full capacity, be ready to take the consequence.

Also please don't start with "they can't detect it". That's what all those professional athletes thought as well, and look where that did take track & field...

So please refrain from posting half-truths like that. I wouldn't mind it, if it wouldn't possibly lure people into doing things that could result in loss of their account, but it does.

Well, if i remember correctly, they stated this is not on a thread but on a eso live. They stated that gaming hardware is ok but not server overload softwares and other kind of cheats. I guess i can find the source of this if i have some time today.

Exactly what I said. The hardware is okay - but not the functionality to automate.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

@Leandor you told me "So please refrain from posting half-truths like that", and after you told me "Exactly what I said"... Btw with a standard G15 keyboard you can't go for the Overload Server Cheat, except if you use a cracked and recoded version of the G15's software. The standard version is clearely allowed because it is just a combo programmed as if you clicked on mouse and keys yourself. This is allowed in any MMO.

What is not is something else, but i guess you clearely don't have a clue of what is overloading the frames of a server right ?

Leandor

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

@Leandor you told me "So please refrain from posting half-truths like that", and after you told me "Exactly what I said"... Btw with a standard G15 keyboard you can't go for the Overload Server Cheat, except if you use a cracked and recoded version of the G15's software. The standard version is clearely allowed because it is just a combo programmed as if you clicked on mouse and keys yourself. This is allowed in any MMO.

What is not is something else, but i guess you clearely don't have a clue of what is overloading the frames of a server right ?

Mate, read what I write. Have fun.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Leandor wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

@Leandor you told me "So please refrain from posting half-truths like that", and after you told me "Exactly what I said"... Btw with a standard G15 keyboard you can't go for the Overload Server Cheat, except if you use a cracked and recoded version of the G15's software. The standard version is clearely allowed because it is just a combo programmed as if you clicked on mouse and keys yourself. This is allowed in any MMO.

What is not is something else, but i guess you clearely don't have a clue of what is overloading the frames of a server right ?

Mate, read what I write. Have fun.

"Mate", I read it again, and you think that using a G15ish hardware with the software attached to it is forbiden right ? If not, please explain more what is the "half-truth" i wrote ?

Sharee

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

@Leandor you told me "So please refrain from posting half-truths like that", and after you told me "Exactly what I said"... Btw with a standard G15 keyboard you can't go for the Overload Server Cheat, except if you use a cracked and recoded version of the G15's software. The standard version is clearely allowed because it is just a combo programmed as if you clicked on mouse and keys yourself. This is allowed in any MMO.

What is not is something else, but i guess you clearely don't have a clue of what is overloading the frames of a server right ?

Mate, read what I write. Have fun.

"Mate", I read it again, and you think that using a G15ish hardware with the software attached to it is forbiden right ?

You may use G15, you may use the software attached to it, you just may not use that software in such a manner that a single keystroke by you results in multiple actions being carried out by your character(as per the ZOS post).

Leandor

Okay, mate. I will draw you the picture. This is the sentence that I criticized:

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS.

You state an outright lie in that you say that macroing is allowed, which I in a friendly way tagged as

Leandor wrote: »

So please refrain from posting half-truths like that. I wouldn't mind it, if it wouldn't possibly lure people into doing things that could result in loss of their account, but it does.

Then you reply with

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Well, if i remember correctly, they stated this is not on a thread but on a eso live. They stated that gaming hardware is ok but not server overload softwares and other kind of cheats

Where I replied to

Leandor wrote: »

Exactly what I said. The hardware is okay - but not the functionality to automate.

There you are. Even in my initial post, I said that the hardware is fine, but not all of it's functions. The "half-truth" is your statement in regards to macros for the G15.

Every functionality, that allows performing more actions with less keypresses than intended without that respective functionality, is considered a breach of ToU. No matter whether it is done by "hacks", "addons" or third party drivers for your peripherals. Clear enough, mate?

SkylarkAU

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BTW, macros with a G15 keyboard (or equivalent) is officially allowed by ZOS. It is just a combination of skills, as if you cliked it by yourself. Example : vampires bane followed by toppling charge followed light attack followed by jabs.

No. ZOS neither condemned nor approved usage of special functions provided by dedicated hardware. Their only ever publicly announced stance is that automation is not allowed, with no differentiation between first-, second- or third-party software. In fact, all three are included.

The post you probably are referring to only states that the use of gaming keyboards is explicitly permitted and that automation is not. The usual beating around the bush when it comes to this topic, and easily misunderstood (as shown by your post). Of course they can't forbid you to play with the hardware you have. But if you use your hardware to the full capacity, be ready to take the consequence.

Also please don't start with "they can't detect it". That's what all those professional athletes thought as well, and look where that did take track & field...

So please refrain from posting half-truths like that. I wouldn't mind it, if it wouldn't possibly lure people into doing things that could result in loss of their account, but it does.

Well, if i remember correctly, they stated this is not on a thread but on a eso live. They stated that gaming hardware is ok but not server overload softwares and other kind of cheats. I guess i can find the source of this if i have some time today.

I'd like to see the ESO live episode in question so I can gauge the context of what was said for myself..

@Leandor while you might be correct, based on this forum alone I think there is more clarity coming from your interpretation than from the various ZOS sources themselves.

Leandor

SkylarkAU wrote: »

@Leandor while you might be correct, based on this forum alone I think there is more clarity coming from your interpretation than from the various ZOS sources themselves.

Yeah, this is my main gripe with this issue. The only ever clear and straight forward official response was the statement by @ZOS_MollyH in regards to specific addons I raised a question about. Every single other green response always stated a general stance that "automation is prohibited by ToU".

Whenever a gray area topic is mentioned, their wording was chosen to be interpeted in every possible way, either by limiting applicability (like the one above, where they answered by saying hardware is okay, completely omitting the central point, the software that allows automation) or by simply referring to said ToU, which in itself are worded very broadly.

Thus, the safe bet is to stay on the conservative side of things. Whenever in doubt, assume the negative.

Kas

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So, what would be a good way to identify a macroer?

I have been led to believe that streamers that don't show their hands are typically macroers due to "APM ego," as well as people who chain abilities with non-overlapping ranges, especially where the chained ability is arguably inferior.

When talking with an acquaintance, I pointed out that the latter is kind of silly because people copy builds all the time. He said he wasn't talking about nubs <cry>.

On your side, it's basically impossible. On ZOS' side:

The simple way is to look at the actions processed on the client. if there is the exact same delay between "key presses" (down to milli or even microseconds), we obviously have a marco'er.

Now anyone in his right mind would be able to set the delay that was supposed to be x (milliseconds) to x + (random(0, y)) to avoid detection. With sufficiently small y, the macro could probably still beat a human in terms of timings.

However, I guess the super-simple approach would help A LOT already esepecially in combination with severe punishment (long time / last warning / perma?) ban.

tl;dr: stop reading here


However, sampling the additional offset uniformly (so simple + random(0, y) is also pretty easy to detect and distinguish from human behavior. Unfortunately this is true for both, ZOS and a cheater.

If anyone wanted to take it long ways, you could model behavior of all and specific users and try to detect anomalies (incredibly many features can be derived from the current state of the game in terms of action, danger, area, fps, etc and this, in combination with behavior of the same users under other circumstances would allow to infer probabilities for delays between actions). Sure, a legit human user will not necessarily actually perform one of the more probable behaviors but there are behaviors that are VERY unlikely. You couldn't automatically ban someone over this but you could flag him for manual monitoring.

Leandor

@Kas considering that network latency comes into play, which is constantly fluctuating, I seriously doubt whether the detection of key press delays is as simple as what you imply.

Kas

Leandor wrote: »

@Kas considering that network latency comes into play, which is constantly fluctuating, I seriously doubt whether the detection of key press delays is as simple as what you imply.

that what i meant with client. the eso binary on your own PC records and sends it to the server (possibly as compressed file only on login, etc). of course, that is no perfect guard but the simplest case is the stupid: "my macro does my rotation perfectly for pve" use-case and the people that use that, probably use very simple tools as well. and that's just incredibly easy to detect.

Leandor

Kas wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Kas considering that network latency comes into play, which is constantly fluctuating, I seriously doubt whether the detection of key press delays is as simple as what you imply.

that what i meant with client. the eso binary on your own PC records and sends it to the server (possibly as compressed file only on login, etc). of course, that is no perfect guard but the simplest case is the stupid: "my macro does my rotation perfectly for pve" use-case and the people that use that, probably use very simple tools as well. and that's just incredibly easy to detect.

If I understand correctly, that is basically what has been done with things like punkbuster and later on VAC. As long as you do a verification in order to ensure the detection mechanism is not tampered with, this would be my preferred solution.

Sadly, such a solution is not implemented, since European customer and data protection laws require the users being made aware of this. I will have to recheck the EULA and ToU, but I was not aware of reading about these.

NB: I hope the hobby lawyers will not hijack this discussion as well now that I mentioned laws and such...

melloni_aleb16_ESO

Master_Kas wrote: »

I get multiple ragewhispers daily with stuff like : macrouser, Cheater etc.

This happens mostly when I'm on My gank/instagib build.

People don't seem to understand how easy it is to animation cancel skills / attacks and that some projectileshave travel times.

For example I can use:
A fully buffed snipe from sneak -> light attack or "small" heavy attack -> poison injection/silver shard and thanks to the travel time of snipe they hit nearly instantly. Also if camo hunter procs it's "4 attacks in one second" as some people say.

You don't need macros for this. And if you have a bad connection or are lagging it can be even worse.

Also there is a bug where your char keeps moving but loses all stam & magicka, thereafter you die. This also seems to make some people think they got killed by a cheater.

I'm not saying macros doesn't exist. Just that you don't need it to get multiple skills to hit in very Quick succession.

My 2 cents. Before you cry cheater etc test it out for yourselfs.

Sorry for bad english.

when you are hit : ambush->H.attack->Surprise attack->light attack ( or another skill S. harvest for example) ...and if you get them in the time of ambush animation ( with 70 latency/ping)and you die istant..there's something wrong , agree ? animation cancel ? uhm , no.

I don't use macro in game ( im free AP ) but i have try ( on PVE , I want to specify ) and quite easy set macros with the correct program... . You can launch 4 shield buff instantly ( with macro ), the system shows only the last animation buff . But all four are active .For the offensive skill is a little more complicated but doable ...

I want to prove something ? No , ZeniMax not interested , probably they would not know even what to do ( blocking skills for second ? )

sorry for my poor english !

Amica

Hi guys Shashu DC, most people often send me tells "macro much?" And other things i can't say on here. But most people in the game mistaken macro using, for what is actually combat canceling. In simple terms for those who do not yet know. Fire off any instant cast ability and then hit block fast, is one method. it cancels out the animations behind the ability which in essence speeds up the the dps out put. Try it for your self, takes practice to fine tune it but works well. Their are macro users of course in the game, as well as other even worst, your out right exploiters / Hacks. Other people just have a rotation that works very fast. For example my build the "Vampire Hunter build"
Snipe x 1 or 2 depending on range of my target, followed strait away by silver shards.
The animation for a snipe takes time to hit the target due to the way it arks through the air. If you fire snipe and silver shards straight away, due to the animations both being different. The shards hits at the same time if not a moment before the snipe hits. camo hunter + rally + snipe + shards + snipe if needed to finish off a target. If your a vamp or werewolf trust me your about to have a bad day in most cases, unless you reflect it. A: it will knock a vamp or wolf down for 4 second that's 3 snipes three shards before you get off the ground. You can if fast enough hit break free on the first shards to stop the knock down but you better be fast as well as potion options.
So next time you get hit with what looks like a barrage of ability's. Take a closer look and make sure its not just well timed abilities and or animation canceling. 3 or 4 snipes and instant dead or 3 wrecking blows before they come out of stealth now that's macro or dare i say it, hacking there asses off :-)
Not may people realize in games the order of your abilities can increase your DPS by a *** load or heals. This is the bonus of making your own builds and not just taking ones that everyone else posts. I have seen the same damn NB builds used all the time, yet only a hand full of NB are good at them. Unless your the guy from last night , that just spammed assault like it was the only ability nbs have lol. but it worked i was out of stam and regen food was gone, had a speed pot going so my portions where down "in my defense" i know im just a noob, and he spammed that thing like his life depended on it and i died, so cudo's to you random pvp person.

Amica

Dru1076 wrote: »

Kobaal wrote: »

Ace got macro'd:

Careful examination of the evidence reveals that Ace has in fact been ganked. Note the angle of the arrows... Strongly indicating a cross fire ambush.

That was GOLD lmao