PVP quirks

Ahzek · July 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

@Solanum Instead of typing it out i will just leae this video here to show how animation cancelling adds to the skill requirement in combat and provides the game with a more responsive feeling in combat.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=9TU43Yi5mAE

I would like to again emphasize the video as it gives a pretty good showcase of what animation cancelling actually adds to combat.

FriedEggSandwich · July 2015

geordie0707 wrote: »

*** game is worst pvp online that's simple skilled or unskilled I can't do anything about 8.5 k crystal *** fragments and I doubt any one can its a *** joke

8.5k crystal frags lol? My destro heavy attacks crit for upto 15k. Projectiles have travel times so can be seen, they can be blocked, dodged, cloaked, absorbed, reflected. No need to thank me.

Solanum · July 2015

@Ahzek I don't see how that video changes anything, press a light attack before using a skill, if you have the urge to bash/block/roll after that you can interrupt the graphic animation of the skill as well.

It's a very basic trick that doesn't require much effort, but again, in a game where visuals supposedly are important, bugging out those visual effects seems off.

Aside from that, it's a good video. Nicely explained and well handled PvP.

However, I still think animation cancelling is a poor mechanic.

Ahzek · July 2015

Sure the trick itself is cery basic. However taking these to the next level with bash dodge and swap cancelling certainly adds another layer of skill to the combat in this game, which in my opinion is very needed, since most basics are so easy to grasp that only some hours of PvP practise can turn you into a quite decent player.

Solanum · July 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

Sure the trick itself is very basic. However taking these to the next level with bash dodge and swap cancelling certainly adds another layer of skill to the combat in this game, which in my opinion is very needed, since most basics are so easy to grasp that only some hours of PvP practise can turn you into a quite decent player.

With the rather limited set of skills available to us ( in regards to only having 12 slots) I have to agree with you on that point. (Even though I still have an aversion for animation cancelling)

Aside from the lack of graphic indication of what is happening which still bugs me, I've just read the patch notes and think that some of the other issues I have with animation cancelling will be lessened if not resolved. Namely the fact that in it's current state it's not hard to kill someone in two global cooldowns with animation cancelling, and that one can dodgeroll about forever while attacking thanks to animation cancelling.

Ezareth · July 2015

yodased wrote: »

geordie0707 wrote: »

*** game is worst pvp online that's simple skilled or unskilled I can't do anything about 8.5 k crystal *** fragments and I doubt any one can its a *** joke

Well absorb magic, reflective scale, roll dodge, line of sight are all things you can do against crystal frags. Frags are like eclipse, a wonderful tool against people who don't know how to defend against it.

Don't forget Block!

But yeah you pretty much covered it.

Ezareth · July 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

@Solanum Instead of typing it out i will just leae this video here to show how animation cancelling adds to the skill requirement in combat and provides the game with a more responsive feeling in combat.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=9TU43Yi5mAE

I would like to again emphasize the video as it gives a pretty good showcase of what animation cancelling actually adds to combat.

Great video man, thanks for making it! Pretty much spot on to what I was saying.

k2blader · July 2015

Solanum wrote: »

So, recently I've attempted some PVP again, and it's a mess.

It's reached a point where I can't even blame my fellow players anymore for abusing latency and bugs, because seemingly everyone does this. And I cannot imagine that ZOS wants their players to be nearly forced into this behavior to do reasonably well in PVP.

TLDR:

I would really like PVP based on skill, rather then based on who knows the latest bug or quirk in game mechanics. If I can help to make this happen I will gladly do so, and I believe and hope there are many good PVPers that would like the same. How can we fix PVP?

JMO players can't be blamed for latency but they can be blamed for intentionally abusing bugs/using exploits. Totally agree with your TLDR though. Right now being "good" at PvP has more to do with knowing how stuff doesn't work the way it should, and that's totally effed up.

In games like this, many/most people (especially the really "invested" ones) are going to take the easiest way and cheat if they can; therefore, the remaining folks who don't exploit can't fix PvP. It's up to the devs to fix the cheats. If the devs don't, PvP will always be a relative joke.

Ezareth · July 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

So, recently I've attempted some PVP again, and it's a mess.

It's reached a point where I can't even blame my fellow players anymore for abusing latency and bugs, because seemingly everyone does this. And I cannot imagine that ZOS wants their players to be nearly forced into this behavior to do reasonably well in PVP.

TLDR:

I would really like PVP based on skill, rather then based on who knows the latest bug or quirk in game mechanics. If I can help to make this happen I will gladly do so, and I believe and hope there are many good PVPers that would like the same. How can we fix PVP?

JMO players can't be blamed for latency but they can be blamed for intentionally abusing bugs/using exploits. Totally agree with your TLDR though. Right now being "good" at PvP has more to do with knowing how stuff doesn't work the way it should, and that's totally effed up.

In games like this, many/most people (especially the really "invested" ones) are going to take the easiest way and cheat if they can; therefore, the remaining folks who don't exploit can't fix PvP. It's up to the devs to fix the cheats. If the devs don't, PvP will always be a relative joke.

I don't agree with this.

While some players are using exploits I know far more players who are skilled and who are not. Most of the people in Cyrodiil aren't using bugs or exploits.

k2blader · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

So, recently I've attempted some PVP again, and it's a mess.

It's reached a point where I can't even blame my fellow players anymore for abusing latency and bugs, because seemingly everyone does this. And I cannot imagine that ZOS wants their players to be nearly forced into this behavior to do reasonably well in PVP.

TLDR:

I would really like PVP based on skill, rather then based on who knows the latest bug or quirk in game mechanics. If I can help to make this happen I will gladly do so, and I believe and hope there are many good PVPers that would like the same. How can we fix PVP?

JMO players can't be blamed for latency but they can be blamed for intentionally abusing bugs/using exploits. Totally agree with your TLDR though. Right now being "good" at PvP has more to do with knowing how stuff doesn't work the way it should, and that's totally effed up.

In games like this, many/most people (especially the really "invested" ones) are going to take the easiest way and cheat if they can; therefore, the remaining folks who don't exploit can't fix PvP. It's up to the devs to fix the cheats. If the devs don't, PvP will always be a relative joke.

I don't agree with this.

While some players are using exploits I know far more players who are skilled and who are not. Most of the people in Cyrodiil aren't using bugs or exploits.

One word: nirn.

I know "many"/"most" are generalizations, but I still think many/most are taking advantage of the nirn bug in PvP. It just grosses me out every time I hear someone in TS say "I have __ nirn pieces and still getting killed!"

As for exploiters like a certain sorc people have pointed out for a while, I don't think there are many at that level..

Makkir · July 2015

Except that Nirn isn't a bug or an exploit and I wish people would read before spewing all the nonsense. It was stated that the effect of Nirn currently is more powerful than they intended for it to be. However, it is working exactly as it is supposed to. They didn't anticipate how strong it would be.

Makkir · July 2015

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

geordie0707 wrote: »

*** game is worst pvp online that's simple skilled or unskilled I can't do anything about 8.5 k crystal *** fragments and I doubt any one can its a *** joke

8.5k crystal frags lol? My destro heavy attacks crit for upto 15k. Projectiles have travel times so can be seen, they can be blocked, dodged, cloaked, absorbed, reflected. No need to thank me.

People who get hit by Crystal Frags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdctnPIR5kA

yodased · July 2015

Yeah @Makkir i didnt know i needed that analogy uny I'll i saw it.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · July 2015

MmmmTofu wrote: »

its beyond my understanding why its possible to have 3-quarters of ability visual cues not even play out, in a minimalistic UI system that heavily relies on visual cue.

This right here. ^^^^

I get the argument about skill. I understand there are folks out there who were born gifted in the reflexes department, unlike the rest of us mouth-breathers.

But what I REALLY can't wrap my head around is that before release ZOS really pushed the idea (and I paraphrase) that "we don't want you playing your UI; we want you playing to the environment", yet they seem to have just accepted animation cancelling helplessly.

Why bother with animations at all when optimal gameplay means you find a control scheme that allows you to shove them under the bed? Seems like a colossal waste of digital resources to me.

But, hey. What do I know?

geordie0707 · July 2015

And another thing u fuckerd from pact and dominion are in league anyways u *** ***

FilthyMudcrabs · July 2015

geordie0707 wrote: »

And another thing *** from pact and dominion are in league anyways u *** ***

Looks like someone needs a diaper change.

kadar · July 2015

Ermegersh, so much long post in the beginning of this thread...

*Ahem*

I like animation cancelling. And to my knowledge, it is functioning normally. To effectively animation cancel, you need skill, practice, and timing. Each of which are vital for the success of an MMO. I DON'T want to sit around and press "1" every time my Global Cooldown cycles...

That said, I don't understand why animation cancelling is grouped in with known bugs and LAG as reasons PVP is broken.

Also, this may have been brought up already. But ZOS is raising the Battle Spirit buff damage reduction from (I think) 20% to 50%. So before we complain too much about getting one shotted by "quirks" or "stealth tricks" let's keep in mind that these things are being worked on and we have been told they are being worked on.

Also, if you think about it the other way: Perhaps it would be better to focus one's time, energy, and skill on countering other players that have invested all of their time, energy, and skill and one shotting you. Haha. Because there are plenty plenty of ways to counter most everything.

I love "PVP Quirks!"

kadar · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

@MaximusDargus
I am sorry to tell you, but in an earlier ESO live they actually sadi that they had "embraced animation cancelling" into their desing philosophy since they feel like it brings a different layer of skill to the game.
I dont remember the exact episode, but it was a few months back and the statement came from Eric Wobble himself during a Q&A segment.

Conclusively I find it rather unlikely that they will actually remove animation cancelling any time soon.

I do hope that statement from last week marks a change in philosophy. Animation cancelling (automated or manual) and its efficiency is strongly influenced by latency. Players forced to play with high (100+) latency values will never achieve the same rate than players with low (30-) latency values.

Making the game this dependent on internet connection quality makes me remember when I switched from 56k to ISDN for Quake II. It was a veritable "what the mofoing tartarus" moment. I do hope that the system gets changed in a way where 100 or even 200 ms latency will not make a difference. Keep animation cancelling to a certain extent if you so wish, but make sure latency does not continue to be an issue.

So we should alter the game to make it simpler for the people with bad internet connections? Don't misunderstand me: I have the worst internet known to mankind. And I disagree with this. Imagine if a game like League of Legends, which also depends a great deal on connectivity, altered their game so people with laggy connections could perform on the highest level. If they did something like this...It seems like it would make the game really...faceroll? For lack of a better term...

Pls don't remove mechanics like Animation Cancel! Pls don't make ESO easier!
Idk. That's just what I think.

Leandor · July 2015

The_Outsider wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

@MaximusDargus
I am sorry to tell you, but in an earlier ESO live they actually sadi that they had "embraced animation cancelling" into their desing philosophy since they feel like it brings a different layer of skill to the game.
I dont remember the exact episode, but it was a few months back and the statement came from Eric Wobble himself during a Q&A segment.

Conclusively I find it rather unlikely that they will actually remove animation cancelling any time soon.

I do hope that statement from last week marks a change in philosophy. Animation cancelling (automated or manual) and its efficiency is strongly influenced by latency. Players forced to play with high (100+) latency values will never achieve the same rate than players with low (30-) latency values.

Making the game this dependent on internet connection quality makes me remember when I switched from 56k to ISDN for Quake II. It was a veritable "what the mofoing tartarus" moment. I do hope that the system gets changed in a way where 100 or even 200 ms latency will not make a difference. Keep animation cancelling to a certain extent if you so wish, but make sure latency does not continue to be an issue.

So we should alter the game to make it simpler for the people with bad internet connections? Don't misunderstand me: I have the worst internet known to mankind. And I disagree with this. Imagine if a game like League of Legends, which also depends a great deal on connectivity, altered their game so people with laggy connections could perform on the highest level. If they did something like this...It seems like it would make the game really...faceroll? For lack of a better term...

Pls don't remove mechanics like Animation Cancel! Pls don't make ESO easier!
Idk. That's just what I think.

Are you saying that the quality of Internet connection is a measure of skill? I can't even...

zornyan · July 2015

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

Ezareth · July 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

The game is an 80GB download with regular 5GB patches....it's already punishing for people with bad internet. Broadband access is already available to 90-95% of their target audience.

Leandor · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

The game is an 80GB download with regular 5GB patches....it's already punishing for people with bad internet. Broadband access is already available to 90-95% of their target audience.

It should nonetheless never require you to have a fiber connection with direct path to server farm and less than 10ms ping. I have 50mbit, but due to location and layout of my flat, I have to use wifi. I do get full download speed for everything (patching with close to 7 MB/s even a bit higher than advertised) but almost never have less than 100ms ping.

Playing on a gaming laptop at a friends using ethernet and a ping of 35 while losing almost 50fps although playing on low instead of high, I did seriously better in pvp. The game was so much more responsive, I never thought it to have this much of an influence. This is bad network code.

zornyan · July 2015

I bought a hard copy (ps4) and had a 15 gb patch. My Internet is 10mb on a GREAT day, averages 7mb. That's the best package available in my area due to local exchange being worked on to get fibre optic next year.

So I shouldn't be able to enjoy the game, Because BT can't upgrade phone lines quick enough? Or does that mean I should move home to be considered worth of playing?

I got ESO because I've been sick of destiny, and it's toxic forums blaming all their problems on people with bad Internet. I hope it's not like that here...

Mauz · July 2015

Solanum wrote: »

However, there is a suspicious amount of people spamming the smiting dawnbreaker, wielding maces, something something camouflaged hunter and caltrops. Then there is an insane amount of animation cancelling, half the times I don't actually see any animation at all, I just instantly die and quite frequently the total damage done doesn't even add up to my hitpoints.

In general dmg is too high atm. On the other side it's possible to avoid nearly 100% of the dmg by stacking shields, roll dodge etc. This together allows builds which are rather squishy, tanky and glass canon at the same time. Not good.

Additionally I think your issue is not animation canceling. Some ppl try to desync client and server by producing feedback overloads, after the overload ends the server tries to resync again which causes all dmg of differnt abilities coming in at the same time. I personally dont think animation canceling itself destroys the balance.

Come join us in non vet campaign. Normalized stats, no lags, less griefers -> fun to play

Solanum · July 2015

Mauz wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

However, there is a suspicious amount of people spamming the smiting dawnbreaker, wielding maces, something something camouflaged hunter and caltrops. Then there is an insane amount of animation cancelling, half the times I don't actually see any animation at all, I just instantly die and quite frequently the total damage done doesn't even add up to my hitpoints.

In general dmg is too high atm. On the other side it's possible to avoid nearly 100% of the dmg by stacking shields, roll dodge etc. This together allows builds which are rather squishy, tanky and glass canon at the same time. Not good.

Additionally I think your issue is not animation canceling. Some ppl try to desync client and server by producing feedback overloads, after the overload ends the server tries to resync again which causes all dmg of differnt abilities coming in at the same time. I personally dont think animation canceling itself destroys the balance.

Come join us in non vet campaign. Normalized stats, no lags, less griefers -> fun to play

I agree with your post, and it does quite often seem like more then animation cancelling (someone landing the same ability 4 times in an instant seems impossible to do with normal animation cancelling) and it worries me how widespread this practice is.

Also the fact that just stacking stamina or magicka increases a persons mitigation better then health could, leads to damage being insanely high since no-one needs to invest in health. Not to mention, Cyrodiil gives a 5k health out to everyone entering to make sure you don't have to get any points in there at all.

I won't join you in the non-vetran campaign, since I'm planning to stay on my main as much as possible, but it worries me that the next patch will involve a pretty hefty reward for those whom are successful in killing other players, while are still so many bugs out there combined with cheaters.

cjthibs · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

The game is an 80GB download with regular 5GB patches....it's already punishing for people with bad internet. Broadband access is already available to 90-95% of their target audience.

It should nonetheless never require you to have a fiber connection with direct path to server farm and less than 10ms ping. I have 50mbit, but due to location and layout of my flat, I have to use wifi. I do get full download speed for everything (patching with close to 7 MB/s even a bit higher than advertised) but almost never have less than 100ms ping.

Playing on a gaming laptop at a friends using ethernet and a ping of 35 while losing almost 50fps although playing on low instead of high, I did seriously better in pvp. The game was so much more responsive, I never thought it to have this much of an influence. This is bad network code.

What are you even talking about?
-Never- use Wifi for gaming.

Wifi introduces latency. It is also highly susceptible to interference from other devices and other Wifi sources.

You answered your own question. The Wifi is killing your response times, not the code.

Also, most people don't seem to know what those numbers mean. The 50Mbit vs 1Mbit doesn't mean jack when it comes to responsiveness of a game. Those are bandwidth numbers, not speed. Download speed =/= Responsiveness.

That means you can download 50 M-bits- per second. (Not bytes, even.) What matters here is response time (latency is a negative effect to response time), measured by your ping.

Invest in something like power-line adapters if you want to reduce latency and cannot run ethernet. You will decrease your available bandwidth, but drastically improve your latency issues.

Leandor · July 2015

cjthibs wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

The game is an 80GB download with regular 5GB patches....it's already punishing for people with bad internet. Broadband access is already available to 90-95% of their target audience.

It should nonetheless never require you to have a fiber connection with direct path to server farm and less than 10ms ping. I have 50mbit, but due to location and layout of my flat, I have to use wifi. I do get full download speed for everything (patching with close to 7 MB/s even a bit higher than advertised) but almost never have less than 100ms ping.

Playing on a gaming laptop at a friends using ethernet and a ping of 35 while losing almost 50fps although playing on low instead of high, I did seriously better in pvp. The game was so much more responsive, I never thought it to have this much of an influence. This is bad network code.

What are you even talking about?
-Never- use Wifi for gaming.

Wifi introduces latency. It is also highly susceptible to interference from other devices and other Wifi sources.

You answered your own question. The Wifi is killing your response times, not the code.

Also, most people don't seem to know what those numbers mean. The 50Mbit vs 1Mbit doesn't mean jack when it comes to responsiveness of a game. Those are bandwidth numbers, not speed. Download speed =/= Responsiveness.

That means you can download 50 M-bits- per second. (Not bytes, even.) What matters here is response time (latency is a negative effect to response time), measured by your ping.

Invest in something like power-line adapters if you want to reduce latency and cannot run ethernet. You will decrease your available bandwidth, but drastically improve your latency issues.

Mate, I know. I can't use powerline, the building is 35 years old and the power cabling is abysmal (I tried, it was worse than wifi). I can't use Ethernet because my landlord has clearly stated that I will lose my CHF10k deposit if I drill holes through the wall. the WiFi is my only option. To minimize its bad influence, I have receiver and sender approx. 60cm apart on both sides of the same wall. I use a brand new wifi router and a brand new wifi device on my computer. I have scanned the network and use a frequency band that is not used by anyone else within range.

This is why I get these quite good results with wifi, but I don't have any possibility to improve it. Still, 100ms latency is not that bad. the network code should be able to compensate for that, honestly. I do fine on other games.

Ezareth · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Punishing people for bad Internet is suicide for any game developer, since not everyone even has access to fast broadband. Plus I don't see how it's fair that even some Internet packages that promise 15-30mb only give you 15 at best, when it's completely legal as it's estimated speed.

People wouldn't bother, elitist attitudes ruin gaming.

The game is an 80GB download with regular 5GB patches....it's already punishing for people with bad internet. Broadband access is already available to 90-95% of their target audience.

It should nonetheless never require you to have a fiber connection with direct path to server farm and less than 10ms ping. I have 50mbit, but due to location and layout of my flat, I have to use wifi. I do get full download speed for everything (patching with close to 7 MB/s even a bit higher than advertised) but almost never have less than 100ms ping.

Playing on a gaming laptop at a friends using ethernet and a ping of 35 while losing almost 50fps although playing on low instead of high, I did seriously better in pvp. The game was so much more responsive, I never thought it to have this much of an influence. This is bad network code.

What are you even talking about?
-Never- use Wifi for gaming.

Wifi introduces latency. It is also highly susceptible to interference from other devices and other Wifi sources.

You answered your own question. The Wifi is killing your response times, not the code.

Also, most people don't seem to know what those numbers mean. The 50Mbit vs 1Mbit doesn't mean jack when it comes to responsiveness of a game. Those are bandwidth numbers, not speed. Download speed =/= Responsiveness.

That means you can download 50 M-bits- per second. (Not bytes, even.) What matters here is response time (latency is a negative effect to response time), measured by your ping.

Invest in something like power-line adapters if you want to reduce latency and cannot run ethernet. You will decrease your available bandwidth, but drastically improve your latency issues.

Mate, I know. I can't use powerline, the building is 35 years old and the power cabling is abysmal (I tried, it was worse than wifi). I can't use Ethernet because my landlord has clearly stated that I will lose my CHF10k deposit if I drill holes through the wall. the WiFi is my only option. To minimize its bad influence, I have receiver and sender approx. 60cm apart on both sides of the same wall. I use a brand new wifi router and a brand new wifi device on my computer. I have scanned the network and use a frequency band that is not used by anyone else within range.

This is why I get these quite good results with wifi, but I don't have any possibility to improve it. Still, 100ms latency is not that bad. the network code should be able to compensate for that, honestly. I do fine on other games.

The game code already compensates pretty well for network latency. I regularly play with 100-300ms ping an don't have any issues except when it is *server* lag that everyone gets.

Network latency compensation is what allows for people to do things like hit you with 5 abilities in 1 second and fly around through Cyrodiil via "Lag-Bolting" (RIP in 2.1).