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Pay To Win, or a Convenience?
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netch_a_sketch✭✭✭✭I don't know if it's just me, but I can't see the XP boost scroll in the Crown Store on PS4.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The scrolls are only on PC store for now. They will come to the PS4 and Xbox One next month.0 -
Kazzy56✭✭✭PS4 EU.
Its not pay to win. Win what? To run a round with a big tag on your head saying 'Nanananana, I'm level 1,0000000 and your not."
Why rush around? Why not take time to discover Tamriel? You can still wander around and fight and gain EXP/Skill/Atribute points. You can pick up endless quests while discovering the world.
This isn't a game that was primarily designed for folks to complete in the fastest time possible, though of course if thats what floats your boat thats great. But oh my, you will miss out on so much to see and do.
I could care less what levels others are at whilst I am playing solo, and am in no hurry to get into PvP.
But some folks will pay if they think it will get them through the game faster than others, though it makes no sense to me, not in this game.
And if you choose to use items on sale in the Crown Store to help get you there faster (wherever 'there is'), well thats your choice.
Personally, I can't see what the point is in buying a game as big as this one is just to 'finish' it as quickly as possible.
But maybe I am just old and naive.
I'm not going to have a go at Zenimax/Bethesda for placing stuff in the store that will bring them in an income. 
Have a great day in Tamriel all.
Young at heart. Slightly older in other places.
PS4 player.
If everything was perfect there would be nothing to strive for.1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, pay to win means the cash store sells something that's better or more then what you can game for.
Paying for getting to the same point -faster- is not PtW. Its just foolish.
I mean, look at the things... for what, 10$ worth of crowns, you get a 50% boost for two hours? Meaning you pay 10$ to get in two hours what anyone else gets in three... so? Save the 10 bucks, play an hour more, laugh at those who paid... 1 -
RobDaCool✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »For me, pay to win means the cash store sells something that's better or more then what you can game for.
Paying for getting to the same point -faster- is not PtW. Its just foolish.
I mean, look at the things... for what, 10$ worth of crowns, you get a 50% boost for two hours? Meaning you pay 10$ to get in two hours what anyone else gets in three... so? Save the 10 bucks, play an hour more, laugh at those who paid...
$10 for a 2 hour 50% boost? lol No thanks.PS4 NA -RobdacoolV20 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »For me, pay to win means the cash store sells something that's better or more then what you can game for.
Paying for getting to the same point -faster- is not PtW. Its just foolish.
I mean, look at the things... for what, 10$ worth of crowns, you get a 50% boost for two hours? Meaning you pay 10$ to get in two hours what anyone else gets in three... so? Save the 10 bucks, play an hour more, laugh at those who paid...
No, for 1000 crowns you get 5x 2 hours, so 10 hours for ~10$.
And the exp scroll from the cash shop is better than the one craftable in game, so it fits your definition of P2W.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »The Champion system needs to be resolved, as mentioned in the podcast from the last ESO weekly, if this experience bonus is gonna cover champion points.
What's gonna stop people from getting ridiculously high stat advantages, what would even be the point of attempting to join the game as a newcomer or a returning player? make it seasonal.
Champion points are like leveling. The stuff you REALLY need like gear, skill points and the ability to play your character cannot be purchased. Skills must be leveled. Also champ points do not give any kind of massive advantage anyways. 90% of the stuff you put points into doesnt do a thing to make you more powerful. More loot in chests? Ability to pick locks faster? How do those make you more powerful in pvp or competitive pve? Answer is they dont.
Champ points mean little to nothing without skills. Skills you need to earn and learn. So all this chicken littling is for naught. Every game there is the period where you level up and learn. There will ALWAYS be a gap between people who play all the time and casuals.
As usual, a certain person with no idea how the game works pops in and feels like sharing his thoughts.
The difference between 200 & 300 Champion Points alone is about 20-30% in DPS, along with passives such as Exploiter (+10% dmg on off-balance targets) for added burst damage.
Later on, you've got things such as Retaliation for +30% nuke after blocking a heavy attack, or Riposte for 15% chance of dealing 5k dmg when blocking, which are huge boosts in PvP.
These, along with all the passives where you put points into which increase your DPS significantly (up to 25% with Mighty, Precise Strikes & Piercing increasing it by another average of 30%~), after which you can still increase your burst damage with Weapon Expert passives in Ritual (making a Dual Wield heavy attack deal more damage than a Wrecking Blow for instance).
This all, without even accounting for the health/stamina/magicka granted by each point you spend (I think it was +20/stat for each point spent).
Are you still going to say Champion Points dont give a massive advantage? They actually give more of an advantage than any gear I've seen in other MMOs could grant.
The only thing you've said which makes sense is that there will always be a gap between casuals & hardcore gamers.
But is there a need to make this gap even wider, by giving around XP boosts to people with tons of gold or $$$ (hardcore gamers) and forcing casuals to pay $$$ for them in order to even stay relevant?
These are obviously not for "catching up", every competitive gamer I know in game is using the crafted ones (or in some cases the Cash Shop version). If anything, "catching up" just became even more difficult for casual gamer.
That sounds very much like a concept that's going to backfire, badly.
You are wrong. There is no 20-30% dps difference. I have been playing this game as you can see by my name before it even came out. Champ points do not give any kind of "massive" advantage. You are just making up numbers with no actual facts behind your statements.
It's rare for me to agree with @DDuke - but in this case I do 100%
if a passive increases my damage by 25%, it kinda tends to increase my damage by 25%...
if a passive gives me 25% more resource regeneration or 15% cost reduction, it means I can forgoe regeneration boni on my equipment and replace them with damage boni - which tends to increase my damage by around 25%
The crit bonus or resistance-penetration passives by themselves are no 25% increase, but together they are even more then that...1 -
Madness1✭✭✭Yes it is pay-to-win, combining the XP boosters with the ESO Plus boost you'll level up incredibly fast; then you'll out level the entire zone (mobs and quests) long before you're done, then you have the farmers who'll farm champion points every single day.
I don't think the problem is with the boosters, it's with the Champion System being dominated by XP farmers. With nothing in the way of caps to limit farmers the gap will keep growing between new and old players. You can already see it now, if you enter PVP now with a vet character you're screwed as you may as well be dead on arrival.
ZOS remove the bloody champ system and vet levels; increase the actual level cap, a new skill tree (or two), and a new zone, also a quest where you can attract vampirism and lycanthropy would be a welcome addition for players looking for a bite (will help stop people selling them on Ebay and in-game). This would solve a bunch of complaints aimed at the game.What is the color of night?
What is the color of the fox?
Hail Sithis.0 -
Kurimugann✭✭✭In my opinion, it is not really pay to win, for like pay to win faster. Sooner or later the faster ones will reach the limit and eventually the slower ones will catch up. The tortoises and the hares will be both stuck at the same red light.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »The Champion system needs to be resolved, as mentioned in the podcast from the last ESO weekly, if this experience bonus is gonna cover champion points.
What's gonna stop people from getting ridiculously high stat advantages, what would even be the point of attempting to join the game as a newcomer or a returning player? make it seasonal.
Champion points are like leveling. The stuff you REALLY need like gear, skill points and the ability to play your character cannot be purchased. Skills must be leveled. Also champ points do not give any kind of massive advantage anyways. 90% of the stuff you put points into doesnt do a thing to make you more powerful. More loot in chests? Ability to pick locks faster? How do those make you more powerful in pvp or competitive pve? Answer is they dont.
Champ points mean little to nothing without skills. Skills you need to earn and learn. So all this chicken littling is for naught. Every game there is the period where you level up and learn. There will ALWAYS be a gap between people who play all the time and casuals.
As usual, a certain person with no idea how the game works pops in and feels like sharing his thoughts.
The difference between 200 & 300 Champion Points alone is about 20-30% in DPS, along with passives such as Exploiter (+10% dmg on off-balance targets) for added burst damage.
Later on, you've got things such as Retaliation for +30% nuke after blocking a heavy attack, or Riposte for 15% chance of dealing 5k dmg when blocking, which are huge boosts in PvP.
These, along with all the passives where you put points into which increase your DPS significantly (up to 25% with Mighty, Precise Strikes & Piercing increasing it by another average of 30%~), after which you can still increase your burst damage with Weapon Expert passives in Ritual (making a Dual Wield heavy attack deal more damage than a Wrecking Blow for instance).
This all, without even accounting for the health/stamina/magicka granted by each point you spend (I think it was +20/stat for each point spent).
Are you still going to say Champion Points dont give a massive advantage? They actually give more of an advantage than any gear I've seen in other MMOs could grant.
The only thing you've said which makes sense is that there will always be a gap between casuals & hardcore gamers.
But is there a need to make this gap even wider, by giving around XP boosts to people with tons of gold or $$$ (hardcore gamers) and forcing casuals to pay $$$ for them in order to even stay relevant?
These are obviously not for "catching up", every competitive gamer I know in game is using the crafted ones (or in some cases the Cash Shop version). If anything, "catching up" just became even more difficult for casual gamer.
That sounds very much like a concept that's going to backfire, badly.
You are wrong. There is no 20-30% dps difference. I have been playing this game as you can see by my name before it even came out. Champ points do not give any kind of "massive" advantage. You are just making up numbers with no actual facts behind your statements.
It's rare for me to agree with @DDuke - but in this case I do 100%
if a passive increases my damage by 25%, it kinda tends to increase my damage by 25%...
if a passive gives me 25% more resource regeneration or 15% cost reduction, it means I can forgoe regeneration boni on my equipment and replace them with damage boni - which tends to increase my damage by around 25%
The crit bonus or resistance-penetration passives by themselves are no 25% increase, but together they are even more then that...
First off you need a minimum of 300 points to get the 25% in one stat. You cant just drop all your points into one thing you have to split them 3 ways. Your example you use GEAR to get the 25% not any passives. Also its not +25% all damage. So again this CP system is some added bonuses yes but nothing like what you are saying. All it does is maybe give you some freedom as far as gear selection. Which is not a bad thing.
Yet you use as an exmaple someone who has at least 1000 points invested because you say I have max 25% all stat. Max all resistances. Have all passives. It just doesnt work like that. You cannot just pick and choose what you want. You cannot get all 3 passives in a line without spending 120 points in EACH. So again this is all just hyperbole and chicken littling with no basis in reality.0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they make champion system into a horizontal rather than vertical progression system then no it wont be pay to win.
Currently XP booster = Bonus XP = Bonus CP = Increased power levels across the board.
So you are paying for a direct power increase over and above normal.
ie Paying to Win.
If XP didn't make you powerful and just made you more skillful with more ungated options, people wouldn't bother grinding so hard and XP boosters wouldn't be pay to win.
Just my opinion of course.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fact is pay to win for the 1000th time means the only way to get said item is to pay for it. since these are available in the game then it isnt pay to win. Period. Your opinion on what it should mean and what it actually means are two different things. These xp pots are so common in the game they went from 50k each to 5k each in 3 days. People were able to get all 7 fragments very very quickly. So not pay to win. You can buy them in the game for gold you dont have to pay for them.
Course this has already been explained 10000 times some people will never get it.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Fact is pay to win for the 1000th time means the only way to get said item is to pay for it. since these are available in the game then it isnt pay to win. Period. Your opinion on what it should mean and what it actually means are two different things. These xp pots are so common in the game they went from 50k each to 5k each in 3 days. People were able to get all 7 fragments very very quickly. So not pay to win. You can buy them in the game for gold you dont have to pay for them.
Course this has already been explained 10000 times some people will never get it.
This.
What exactly are we "winning" here? I think it adds tremendous value to me, as a 40 plus hour work week dad who wants a little boost when playing the game to make up for the time I don't get to grind.
Pay to win, as stated above, means you can buy the sword of destruction for 20 bucks..... but you can't find it.
I think most of you are misinterpreting the defisquition of "Pay to Win".
Just my opine.
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JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Fact is pay to win for the 1000th time means the only way to get said item is to pay for it. since these are available in the game then it isnt pay to win. Period. Your opinion on what it should mean and what it actually means are two different things. These xp pots are so common in the game they went from 50k each to 5k each in 3 days. People were able to get all 7 fragments very very quickly. So not pay to win. You can buy them in the game for gold you dont have to pay for them.
Course this has already been explained 10000 times some people will never get it.
Define it all you like; it is only valid or correct to a degree of consensus about it and there is obvious and utter lack of it.
Even by your definition (which makes ESO+ decidedly P2W by the way), since characteristic property of crown store XP/CP boost is it is instant, right now, no effort boost, I would argue in-game version, which in order not to cut crown store sales must not have this property, is not a substitute, therefore it is P2W.
Not that in game availability is of relevance; some players will have advantage over others just because they paid. I would call it P2W, but corruption is also a fitting term.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Fact is pay to win for the 1000th time means the only way to get said item is to pay for it. since these are available in the game then it isnt pay to win. Period. Your opinion on what it should mean and what it actually means are two different things. These xp pots are so common in the game they went from 50k each to 5k each in 3 days. People were able to get all 7 fragments very very quickly. So not pay to win. You can buy them in the game for gold you dont have to pay for them.
Course this has already been explained 10000 times some people will never get it.
Define it all you like; it is only valid or correct to a degree of consensus about it and there is obvious and utter lack of it.
Even by your definition (which makes ESO+ decidedly P2W by the way), since characteristic property of crown store XP/CP boost is it is instant, right now, no effort boost, I would argue in-game version, which in order not to cut crown store sales must not have this property, is not a substitute, therefore it is P2W.
Not that in game availability is of relevance; some players will have advantage over others just because they paid. I would call it P2W, but corruption is also a fitting term.
Nope there is a consensus. Its only people who cannot accept the definition and want to re-write it that have a problem. XP pots are available in the game. Therefore they do not fit the definition of pay to win. Since you dont have to pay. You can try and rationalize etc and make up definitions all you want but fact of the matter is if its available in the game then it simply isnt pay to win. A player who buys a scroll off the store has no advantage over the person who buys it in game.
Now if these scrolls were only on the store then it would be pay to win.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Nope there is a consensus.
Is there? Then I must have been mislead by all the arguing over what it means.
By the way, how would you define consensus?0
