Pay To Win, or a Convenience?

nimander99

It is not pay to win imo

Cogo

I don't understand "SOME" people. If there was an option to buy a new char, max level, then adding max rank. Then for added money, you can buy max PvP rank. All skills max. All Skill points gotten. Then another option to buy all achievements, all dyes and all tradeskills maxed and researched. Add to that, another option for choice of top end gear.

Oh, of course add another option to buy all champion points! (Why the hell do some people ask for this....is beyond me)

I bet some people would buy all this! Log in and say "Yay, I wun ESO!"

So far the shop have not been that bad. Lets hope it stays that way.

BigM

Cogo wrote: »

I don't understand "SOME" people. If there was an option to buy a new char, max level, then adding max rank. The for added money you can get max PvP rank. All skills max. All Skill points gotten. Then another option to buy all achivements, all dyes and all tradeskills maxed and researched. Add to that, another option for choice of top end gear.

I bet some people would buy all this! Log in and say "Yay, I wun ESO!"

So far the shop have not been that bad. Lets hope it stays that way.

Well that would be awesome for the company because it would cost well over a grand!

Moonshadow66

Cogo wrote: »

I don't understand "SOME" people. If there was an option to buy a new char, max level, then adding max rank. Then for added money, you can buy max PvP rank. All skills max. All Skill points gotten. Then another option to buy all achievements, all dyes and all tradeskills maxed and researched. Add to that, another option for choice of top end gear.

Oh, of course add another option to buy all champion points! (Why the hell do some people ask for this....is beyond me)

I bet some people would buy all this! Log in and say "Yay, I wun ESO!"

So far the shop have not been that bad. Lets hope it stays that way.

Holy sh*t, NO!!
Why would I even buy the game if I'm not going to PLAY it?
The way is the goal. Sad that many people don't seem to understand this.

BigM

Well they use the excuse they work too much, don't have time to play with RL issues, so they open the wallets and rush to end. Tell people they beat the game when in reality they did nothing and have no clue how game works. Others that ask them about the game end up not buying it because he says it was super easy.

Weird but unfortunately all true!

Danikat

domenthechief wrote: »

XP boosts are hardly pay to win. Is GW2 p2w because they have XP boosters? Nope.

Plus, you can always craft it.

Guild Wars 2's XP booster is a good example of why it's never as simple as "X item = pay to win".

Their XP booster gives you +50% XP from kills for 1 hour. But this is in a game which was designed to make grinding kills a sub-par way to get XP to begin with - even when you're grinding XP primarily by killing things (for example when playing in the Edge of the Mists map) the majority of XP will actually come from the events you complete rather than directly from kills and therefore isn't affected by this booster.

It's also a game that was deliberately designed to have an easily obtainable level cap: even casual players can expect to reach the maximum level in a few months at most (I believe I was exceptionally slow, taking 7 months for my 1st character). The game also scales you to the level of the map in many locations so your actual level (and therefore amount of XP earned) is not the deciding factor in how powerful you are.)

Finally unlike some games, most importantly (for this discussion) ESO there's no type of experience based progression after the maximum level, so once you've reached that easily obtained cap how much XP you earn and how quickly is largely irrelevant. (There will be masteries soon, but by the sounds of things those are extremely specialised, things like 'glider mastery' which allows you to glide a bit further on certain maps.)

But very little of that carries over to other games. If you have a game where grinding kills can give equal or better XP to questing, where your level is the major factor determining what fights you can survive and which will crush you instantly, and where either the level cap is designed to be extremely hard/time consuming to reach and/or progression continues in another form after the cap then that same XP booster could make a huge difference - allowing players who buy them to remain constantly ahead of players who don't and to gain big advantages during gameplay by doing so.

I'm not saying ESO is that game or that the XP scroll is pay to win, I'm just saying it's not as simple as finding one game where that type of item isn't a problem and declaring that to be true for all games.

Heromofo

BigM wrote: »

I don't care anymore, they don't fix bugs, can't fix the launcher, what is the use of caring, they do exactly what they want.

Just hope they aren't shocked when a lot of people leave. I have heard rumors a lot of console players are getting refunds. No data to back that up as of yet.

If you heard the filth and abuse over the mics i dont blame them and with no other way of talking we are up a creek with no paddle.

The console community is very poisonous and is not good for business they need to find a way to monitor and permanently ban people or give us a way to permanently opt out of it and give us a text chat.

Sunver

Definately not pay to win.

BigInGlenumbra

Kahl_dur wrote: »

What's everyone's feeling about the new Crown Experience Scroll. Is an XP booster sold for real money pay-to-win, or is it just a convenience?
ESO Is Now Selling Experience Boosters In The Cash Shop

It's not P2W necessarily, but it's definitely NOT good.

Many people who will buy this will be wealthy players and people with money that want easy CP points, while others will be people who just want to level alts quickly but won't use it besides that.

So basically grinders will get even more CP while non-grinders will get a little bit more CP than they were getting previously, thus widening the power gap between grinders and non-grinders/casuals. This is never a good thing.

BigM

Heromofo wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

I don't care anymore, they don't fix bugs, can't fix the launcher, what is the use of caring, they do exactly what they want.

Just hope they aren't shocked when a lot of people leave. I have heard rumors a lot of console players are getting refunds. No data to back that up as of yet.

If you heard the filth and abuse over the mics i dont blame them and with no other way of talking we are up a creek with no paddle.

The console community is very poisonous and is not good for business they need to find a way to monitor and permanently ban people or give us a way to permanently opt out of it and give us a text chat.

Oh you do not have to convince me, just what I have seen on forums, it has made me to forget about ever getting a console. We have people on PC/MAC that could be the same way and thank God the only one's I talk with and hear are with my guild and if someone acts like that they are gone within seconds.

I_killed_Vivec

I thought that when they first put forward the idea of XP boosters they said 10% and only up to level 50 - no effect on the CP grind.

That calmed down the P2W complaints.

Now it's 50% and unlimited...

But I still say it's just fishing and doing writs so that we can grind more efficiently - all the while too busy to notice no new content until Christmas.

Morvul

some people here have very, very strange defenitions of "Pay to win", in my book...

If I buy XP boosters, is my character then better then it would be if I did not buy XP boosters?
Obviously the answer is yes.
therefore XP boosters are rather straight-forward P2W...
(as is ESO+)

I can see how people can argue wheter it is a bad or mild case of P2W, but how anyone can consider accelerated CP gain as non-P2W is beyond my comprehension...

Tiveria

it's pay to lose money

TheShadowScout

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

so according to some of you, Adding a option that lets you buy 1 champion point for say 500c would not be pay to win since you can easily earn 1 champion point by grinding...

yes.... this is EXACTLY the same thing...

buying a XP booster via RMT vs grinding to get it in game...

Pay 5$ worth of crowns for a c-point? I'd snicker at those just as I do now as them who pay for the crown XP gain scrolls... throw money at what others gain for free with just a bit more effort? Again, I wouldn't call it PtW, I'd call it stupid...

Morvul wrote: »

If I buy XP boosters, is my character then better then it would be if I did not buy XP boosters?
Obviously the answer is yes.
therefore XP boosters are rather straight-forward P2W...
(as is ESO+)

If you buy your XP booster and play one hour, and I play three hours without XP boosters, it your character gonna be better then mine?
Obviously the answer is no.
Pay to... what again?

Pay to win? Nope.
Pay for an advantage? Okay, granted.
Worth it? Not for me it wouldn't be... and thus I keep snickering at those who throw money at XP boosters...

Now, if they ever start selling something in the crown store that's giving an better effect then what you can gain/craft in game... then I'd be there with the PtW-criers.
Not before.
Don't cry wolf unless there really is one lurking in the shadows.

Faulgor

Paying for time in a progression-based game is P2W.

Of course "winning" in an MMO is always a topic of debate, but regardless of the term, cash shops always compromise the quality of the game, and ESO is a lesser game because of its current payment model. Which Matt Firor acknowledged.

Granz

Wow! I didn't know these where in the game! I love this game but the VR levels are over the top. Way too much of a grind. I will be buying these Sunday. I am a PvPer and have not PvPed because you can't remotely compete in the low VR levels. It's not "Pay to Win". Pay to win is armor or permanent buffs to your toon that is hard to impossible to get in game. This experience booster is just smart. Glad they did it. Cash for them is something they need. I love how people don't think they should make money. BTW don't give me the "You won't see the game". Believe me the 1000's of the quests I have done to get to VR7 is quite enough.

Thanks for adding these!

coryevans_3b14_ESO

YOU CAN BUY BETTER WITH IN GAME GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Was that loud enough for you to hear it?

They are for sale for gold and will be even more available as time goes on.

For instance i'm saving up all my roe until I have the recipe myself. I have 10 so far. That alone is 40 xp pots. I'll be making them to sell. Not to use. I could care less about leveling faster.

Granz

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

YOU CAN BUY BETTER WITH IN GAME GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Was that loud enough for you to hear it?

They are for sale for gold and will be even more available as time goes on.

For instance i'm saving up all my roe until I have the recipe myself. I have 10 so far. That alone is 40 xp pots. I'll be making them to sell. Not to use. I could care less about leveling faster.

Seen the price in game? Hopefully that calms down. People selling them for 7k to 50k. Not happening...

SC0TY999

I remember at one point in time ZOS mention that items purchased from the crown store will never be as effective or powerful as crafted!

So wouldn't that mean that my crafted XP pots should last for 2hours 20mins which include the passives?

Food for thought

coryevans_3b14_ESO

Granz wrote: »

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

YOU CAN BUY BETTER WITH IN GAME GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Was that loud enough for you to hear it?

They are for sale for gold and will be even more available as time goes on.

For instance i'm saving up all my roe until I have the recipe myself. I have 10 so far. That alone is 40 xp pots. I'll be making them to sell. Not to use. I could care less about leveling faster.

Seen the price in game? Hopefully that calms down. People selling them for 7k to 50k. Not happening...

Ya it's definitely a little high right now. Although I see them for 6k a lot now. Which isn't bad. But I'll never use them. I think I level fast enough questing and doing everything.

But it'll get cheaper for sure. Roe is still selling for 19k.

Elsonso

Kahl_dur wrote: »

What's everyone's feeling about the new Crown Experience Scroll. Is an XP booster sold for real money pay-to-win, or is it just a convenience?

Nothing in the store is really P2W right now, and I doubt that any single item will ever be.

The closest items are the horse training ones. Anyone of financial means that can afford to be training with Crowns should be doing it. The time savings is insane. For $140 you are 60/60/60, which is less than $1 per day to save 180 days. This is much cheaper than Starbucks coffee every day. While some consider maxed horses to be "win", what makes these "win" for me is simply the fact that the in-game training is punitive compared to the Crown training.

The XP boosters are going to require money and dedication to use effectively. The horse training just requires money, but with XP the player has to put effort into it. How much effort they put into it determines how much the XP boost is worth. The really dedicated types who know how to get XP can probably do a VR 14 for $25 but the more lazy players could spend upwards of $75 to $100 to get a VR 14 from start. Still, after spending that money, the character will be deficient in skills and CP.

However, once ZOS has incrementally added the whole suite of boosters, collectively they will be right on the Pay to Win line. Champion System boosters will help new players get their Champion System up to the existing players. Crafting Boosters will help new players get crafting up to max faster, Together, all of these things will be the equivalent of a "VR 14 boost" presented cafeteria style or as a 2-hour bundle of power leveling. This should allow a player to simply trade money for an end-game character, some assembly required. This is the revenue generating way of doing what Blizzard did with the Level 90 Boost.

Depending on the detail of how this is done, or if it is done, I do expect that this will be Pay to Win. Fortunately, I expect to get at least another year in on this game before they can roll all of this out.

kevlarto_ESO

SCAGNETTI4691 wrote: »

p2w is when they sell over powered equipment and enchants that are not available in the game. XP boost are so the working man can compete with kids off for the summer!

This^^^^ What does one win if they drink this potion? Can they kill the boss in that raid and get all the loot do the credits roll, can they wipe an entire raid in pvp ? It is just what it says it is a boost a little bit of a time saver nothing more nothing less.

Now if they start selling the sword of a thousand truths in the store or the ultimate absorbing armor, yea we have a problem at that point.

Lava_Croft

Unlike any cosmetic items:

Pay money to become stronger than someone who does not.

Psychobunni

Cogo wrote: »

I don't understand "SOME" people. If there was an option to buy a new char, max level, then adding max rank. Then for added money, you can buy max PvP rank. All skills max. All Skill points gotten. Then another option to buy all achievements, all dyes and all tradeskills maxed and researched. Add to that, another option for choice of top end gear.

Oh, of course add another option to buy all champion points! (Why the hell do some people ask for this....is beyond me)

I bet some people would buy all this! Log in and say "Yay, I wun ESO!"

So far the shop have not been that bad. Lets hope it stays that way.

It all depends on perspective, imo anything that allows you to bypass a mechanic and/or wall is P2W. No, bypassing the level requirement on dwemer motifs(for instance) isn't as big a deal as buying a decked out V14, however you are still bypassing something players have to work for in game, effectively paying to win it.

Doesn't really matter how much we argue about it, ZOS is going to do what ZOS is going to do, edging us in the water inch by inch. Best to enjoy the ride the most you can, while you can.... before drowning

Darkeus

its normal , and perfect.

RobDaCool

I do not think it's pay to win. Then again if every quest actually gave XP in this game, we wouldn't need these "XP boosters" lol

Sausage

Of course P2W but minor one, but nevertheless very bad direction for the game. If you have thousand of dollar to burn use them all the time. Saddens me really Zen isnt giving this game a chance. We could do it honestly, we could crush the worms. All current MMOs are close to F2P or dead, couple year more and we push them off the cliff. Get your stuff together for real.

Morvul

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

so according to some of you, Adding a option that lets you buy 1 champion point for say 500c would not be pay to win since you can easily earn 1 champion point by grinding...

yes.... this is EXACTLY the same thing...

buying a XP booster via RMT vs grinding to get it in game...

Pay 5$ worth of crowns for a c-point? I'd snicker at those just as I do now as them who pay for the crown XP gain scrolls... throw money at what others gain for free with just a bit more effort? Again, I wouldn't call it PtW, I'd call it stupid...

Morvul wrote: »

If I buy XP boosters, is my character then better then it would be if I did not buy XP boosters?
Obviously the answer is yes.
therefore XP boosters are rather straight-forward P2W...
(as is ESO+)

If you buy your XP booster and play one hour, and I play three hours without XP boosters, it your character gonna be better then mine?
Obviously the answer is no.
Pay to... what again?

Pay to win? Nope.
Pay for an advantage? Okay, granted.
Worth it? Not for me it wouldn't be... and thus I keep snickering at those who throw money at XP boosters...

Now, if they ever start selling something in the crown store that's giving an better effect then what you can gain/craft in game... then I'd be there with the PtW-criers.
Not before.
Don't cry wolf unless there really is one lurking in the shadows.

well, whether we call it "pay for advantage" or "pay to win, but not the worst kind of pay to win possible" is just semantics...

I completely agree that other games sell things which upset gamebalance much more then ESOs XP boosters will. That does not change the fact that I consider Champion-point accelerators as as "beyond the line of good taste".
That opinion is, admittetly, mostly due to the fact that I consider the champion system itself to be too powerfull - no matter if it's purely grinded up, or XP-boosted grinded up.

ESO seems to be going down the road of: add inconvinient grind, then add convinience item to lessen the grind. Not a big surprise there... pretty much every B2P/F2P game goes down that road...

Rev Rielle

Kahl_dur wrote: »

What's everyone's feeling about the new Crown Experience Scroll. Is an XP booster sold for real money pay-to-win, or is it just a convenience?
ESO Is Now Selling Experience Boosters In The Cash Shop

Just convenience. Anyone that says it's pay to win, in my opinion, is completely out of touch with what this MMOs is about.

King Bozo

So many different opinions on pay to win. Should I be able to buy a v14 of any class, faction, and race that would be pay to win in my opinion.