The Great Champion Point Divide

psufan5 · June 2015

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

I see a lot of skill vs. CP stuff here. Honestly since Closed beta, I have never been killed by 1 person in PVP ever. I have never seen a "fair fight" where it is 1 person vs. another directly and without interference.

Every legit fight I have ever been in, I have been fighting more than 1 person.. and had more than 1 person on my side as well.

Every time I have been ganked, when questing, looking for shards, at Dolmens.. guess what... more than 1 person, usually at least 3.

SO yeah, 30 high CP people vs 30 low CP people is going to be an issue.... 2 groups of mixed CP people (much more likely)... not so much.

When 3 people are hanging near a skyshard waiting for me. It doesn't matter how many CP I have or how many CP they have... I'm toast.

I guess you aren't a vamp DK with 400 CP points. Come back here when you find who I am talking about, and after you watch him kill 6 players easily

.

P3ZZL3 · June 2015

nm?

eliisra · June 2015

They need to add a system that allows new- and returning players to catch up on CP after every new major update. Something that closes the gap between hardcore grinders and those just starting out.

If not, they're creating to much imbalance and players wont be interested in returning or trying out the game.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure they will add such a system in the future. Makes no sense not to. All MMO's with a system similar to CP has it.

Basically when you start out you gain your first 400-500 point(or whatever is considered average minimum in that game) in a couple of days only. Next major update, that number is increased to maybe 800-1000 points, that a new players gets almost instantly. I think this will be the case in ESO to.

Maulkin · June 2015

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

I see a lot of skill vs. CP stuff here. Honestly since Closed beta, I have never been killed by 1 person in PVP ever. I have never seen a "fair fight" where it is 1 person vs. another directly and without interference.

Every legit fight I have ever been in, I have been fighting more than 1 person.. and had more than 1 person on my side as well.

Every time I have been ganked, when questing, looking for shards, at Dolmens.. guess what... more than 1 person, usually at least 3.

SO yeah, 30 high CP people vs 30 low CP people is going to be an issue.... 2 groups of mixed CP people (much more likely)... not so much.

When 3 people are hanging near a skyshard waiting for me. It doesn't matter how many CP I have or how many CP they have... I'm toast.

The fact you haven't doesn't mean others haven't either. I duel a lot, it's part of my entertainment. 1v1 happens in this game even if it doesn't happen for you. The CP will make the game seriously unbalanced in a short while.

People make it sound that 600 vs 6 CPs is a small difference. It's huge. It's not just the 15% more damage..

It's:
- 15% more base damage
- 15% more crit damage
- 15% more shields or heals
- 15% more damage mitigation
- 15% more regen
- 15% more core attributes (HP, Stam, Magic)
... and a bunch of useful extra passives like extra crit chance etc.

And it's not even about PvP only. As others have said how do you make end-game PvE content that is challenging enough for the 600 CPs person and at the same time not impossible for the 6 CP person.Skill cannot be taken into consideration in this discussion.

Imagine players A and B of equal, average skill. A has 600 CPs, B has 6. If you design a dungeon that B can complete it's going to be a boring as hell for A. If it's seriously challenging for A then it's borderline mathematically undoable for B.

Whichever way you design you dungeons you are going to alienate either A or B. Unless you change things completely and introduce some scaling difficulty (1-5 or 1-10) with higher chance of rewards the higher the difficulty scale.

Addihul · June 2015

Married, 3 kids, marathon training, full time job... still love ESO and I play every day. In the highest ranking guild on DC but I probably have the lowest CP in my guild. I consider myself skilled and have strong trial and DSA times. I have the best sets, strong skill bars and rotations, and a lot of experience. However, I'm learning to be content with the fact that no matter what I do, I will not outpace nor out DPS those in my guild because of CP. Some people will always just be farther ahead. I don't attribute that to skill. I attribute that to time. Some people play 10 hours a day and ESO rewards them for it. Oh well.. life goes on.

Hexyl · June 2015

Totally agree with the OP.

This champion system.. it's freaking me. I hope they will changed it. Otherwise, bye Eso.

Junkogen · June 2015

Wow, the disparity is even larger than I thought.

The grinders amaze me. Just think if you applied that same tenacity to ending poverty.

It definitely puts the game in a different perspective for me. I loved the nonvet PvP experience, but with soft caps removed and this new champion system, as an Argonian NB, I feel like I'm going to be a special Olympian trying to beat Usain Bolt in sprints.

Moonshadow66 · June 2015

Epona222 wrote: »

Meh, I have a very handsome husband, if I spend time with him rather than grinding for CP in ESO I do not think I have lost anything!

You know what? You're absolutely right.
I do not have a husband [insert long story here], but there're still more important things in life than grinding for CP.
You deserve the "awesome of the day", thank you

joshisanonymous · June 2015

It's mainly going to divide players in PvP or that are hardcore about trials. Despite there being diminishing returns, we're still gonna end up with players that have such an absurd amount of CP that they have 5%+ in literally every option in every tree. There is nothing at all stopping this progression from continuing either. The people who get a lot of points at the beginning get enlightenment when they're not playing, and keep adding to the same exact CP pool even if they start over on completely new characters. It's not like skill points where it eventually doesn't matter how many you have because you can only use so many skills/passives at once, we can actually end up seeing people with the 120 point bonus in every tree eventually. That's pretty damn big.

This isn't exactly like every MMO either, at least concerning PvP. It's like every MMO that screws up PvP by making it based almost purely on time played, but that's not a requirement. Some kind of cap or a limit on what activities earn you CP or not making CP account wide would go a long way towards giving other players a chance at catching up. DAoC is possibly one of the only games I've ever seen with an effectively continuous progression system (realm ranks) that wasn't insurmountable because people who spent all their time PvPing wouldn't have access to the equally powerful gear that you could only get through PvE.

There has to be some sort of limit on progression. If every activity you do on every character adds to the same progression bar, it becomes completely based on time played and simply never slows down. This quite literally makes it impossible for newer player to catch up. I won't be surprised if they have to nerf Champion Skills into the dust a year or two from now to balance it out for newcomers.

EDIT: Also, this could affect new player perception greatly. I remember starting Warhammer Online late, having fun in PvP as I was leveling, then getting to level cap and finding that I was no more than fodder, and that I would be nor more than fodder until I spend countless hours hiding in a mindless zerg, because all the best gear and skills were locked behind PvP progression. And this was not simply gear that gave something like 2% more effectiveness, it was gear that made it possible for light armored healers to tank DPS classes like they were nothing. It killed the game for me immediately. I don't mind being an underdog, but no one wants to feel like catching up is completely impossible.

Nefrast · June 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

As a casual gamer with not many champion points, is it possible to stay competitive in this game?

Double no. As a casual you will be at a disadvantage because of sub-optimal gear and fewer champion points. Both together will have a drastic impact in both PvP and PvE.

You can stay competitive with other casuals, but not competitive with players investing much more time than you. Unfortunately the group functions in this game will not help you finding other casuals.

Hexyl · June 2015

Nefrast wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

As a casual gamer with not many champion points, is it possible to stay competitive in this game?

Double no [...] in both PvP and PvE [...]

T-T-Triple !

!\ Combo Breaker /!

Even if you want play just for RP contents, you will be crushed.

Someone next ?

miklawceb17_ESO · June 2015

Hexyl wrote: »

Nefrast wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

As a casual gamer with not many champion points, is it possible to stay competitive in this game?

Double no [...] in both PvP and PvE [...]

T-T-Triple !

!\ Combo Breaker /!

Even if you want play just for RP contents, you will be crushed.

Someone next ?

You won't be able to RP competitively with such suboptimal gear and so little CPs :P

In all seriousness though, oh how i wish we got cps for leveling since the start. It's not that i don't play a ton, i just have a ton of alts that i all find fun. As it is, every minute spent on a non-vet char feels like i'm missing out on CP -.-'

AssaultLemming · June 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Because skill + luck is never equal someone always has the advantage, a skilled player has the advantage more often than the unskilled player. If I can jump from stealth and 1hit you for 75% health then 1 hitnyou again or kill , but you had 25% defensive bonus so I only hit you for 56.25% each hit.....guess what i still 2-shot killed you......probably before you saw/hit me especially if I had a stun....who won ? Skill! Suppose you did get a hit on me and had +25% damage....you only hit me for 93.75% of my life....so no matter you had +25% defense and +25% offense....I still won before the first attack was launched.

As I said, equally skilled players fighting. If you dont 1shot someone, there is time to shield up ... take a potion ... go in stealth ... do anything.

If your laser beam vison melts me, your Jedi Powers force me into jumping a down from a mountain or you have a Anti-Jeckll-Spray in your Batman Belt doesnt change the fact that PvP is not only about ganking people but there are also real fights in there, going on for minutes and are decided by CP if Skill and Gear is equal.

Skill is never equal....need I repeat myself...

Skill is often equal. Champion points make a big difference in fights between two relatively skilled and geared players. Anyone should be able to see that.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

DaveMoeDee · June 2015

Robotmafia wrote: »

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

not sure but yeah its a huge worry. i know my friend who i played heaps with is atm not playing, waiting for new stuff. is gonna be REALLY far behind when he comes back and we play together. and he will never catch up.
i do my point a day and maybe another 1-3 points a week ontop of that and im on 185.

u are worried about 170. there are atm people with 440+ and even more people on 250-300

How can anyone have more than +/- 200? I mean, yes, obviosly this is true, but how? Either their days must have 100 hours, or there's something wrong with the system. I should know since I play really a LOT (as I stated earlier already). More than 250 can't have been achieved yet, if not for a bug.

well you can easily get 1 CP per day with enlightenment in an hour... so 1 hour per day isn't a lot of play time... another cp can be gained in about 3 hours depending on what you do... so its not that hard to get on average 2 a day.. if you play quite often... so the system has been out for soon 3 months so its pretty easy to be at 200 for those who started at 70....

and as mention by others... every mmo offer an advantage to those who play more... that's half the incentive to play.. is to be stronger...

Or have multiple VR characters with enlightenment. Just get your CP for each VR character, and spend the rest of your time leveling other characters to VR1.

For accounts that had multiple VR14 when this was rolled out, they also got a bunch of CP to start.

At the moment, I don't even play my VR characters when they don't have enlightenment. I level alts instead.

DaveMoeDee · June 2015

eliisra wrote: »

They need to add a system that allows new- and returning players to catch up on CP after every new major update. Something that closes the gap between hardcore grinders and those just starting out.

If not, they're creating to much imbalance and players wont be interested in returning or trying out the game.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure they will add such a system in the future. Makes no sense not to. All MMO's with a system similar to CP has it.

Basically when you start out you gain your first 400-500 point(or whatever is considered average minimum in that game) in a couple of days only. Next major update, that number is increased to maybe 800-1000 points, that a new players gets almost instantly. I think this will be the case in ESO to.

Nah. The grinders deserves it. They worked for it. More power to them.

Imbalance because people who play hard to get an advantage are allowed to have an advantage? I don't see a problem.

The only catch-up method that makes sense to me is diminishing returns. This is partly there with limits to enlightenment and decreasing marginal gain from adding a CP in a stat. Apart from that, I don't see wiping out the fruits of people's efforts as a good thing.

F7sus4 · June 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

What people also fail to take into account is that while the benefits of CP seem kind of minor, it really adds up in a group of 12 players. We can see that in SO where we constantly improve our times week by week with the same tactic just because people get more and more cp. It's clearly noticeable.

As a member of another hardcore guild running SO HM for Leaderboards, I tend not to fully agree with your point, Jeckll. First off all, you're never performing on the same level with each run - there'd always be a 1) minor screw-up or unexpected interrupt in DPS rotation (e.g. it's never 20k and 20k only on the same fights, but usually plus/minus 2-3k, which is 10-15% solely out of total 25% that you can get with maxed CPs), 2) a person randomly slowing up the team (overcharge/troll poison/1-shots), 3) etc. Those factors are more related to players' performance rather than CP directly. So when you're saying that your group is getting better and better each run, I'd tend to favor "learning factor" more than "CP factor". To confirm that, you could notice similar progression in your group pre-1.6 with no CP system.

theweakminded · June 2015

If you are more casual, do yourself la favor and do not compare with less casual players. It may sting a bit in pvp, but its the nature of the beast. Enjoy the game and you will do well enough just by playing well.

theweakminded · June 2015

Hexyl wrote: »

Totally agree with the OP.

This champion system.. it's freaking me. I hope they will changed it. Otherwise, bye Eso.

Bye

PKMN12 · June 2015

at PVP? Nope. The CP system made it so those who play this game will always be the only ones with any possible way to do anythign in PVP.

PBpsy · June 2015

PKMN12 wrote: »

at PVP? Nope. The CP system made it so those who play this game will always be the only ones with any possible way to do anythign in PVP.

As opposed to those who do not play this game and instead chose to play Starcraft!?

Locke_ESO · June 2015

The way I see it is that the Champion Point system works great for personal long term progression when people are happy just completing content. Where it sucks is for competitive trials, weekly leader boards and pvp and atm almost every single high rank player is focused on those things because there is basically little else to do in the game.

It's particularly bad for PvP because atm many of the skill sets that work well in PVE are not effective in PvP and vice versa so your forced to do one or the other or be competitive at neither.

Robbmrp · June 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Atm, I have 173 CP and I'm playing a LOT. How anyone could have (much) more than I have is an enigma to me. But, imho this only "seems" to be a lot of bonuses; the 0,X% you get per CP are so insignificant that I'd say you don't miss much when you have less CP than f.e. I have right now. So I don't think the CS would kill the game

But like in other games, or other things in general, the ones who get there earlier or spend more time there will be ahead of the beginners, until/unless they stop playing or cannot get any higher in progression. But even then, there always will be other new players which don't have a VR14 with 3600 CP. Except for PvP maybe, I don't see a problem there

Dude, with 400+ CP you can have a 25% damage advantage + 12% more crit + 25% more defensive stuff vs a dude with 0 CP.

The impact of CP made the game completly imbalaced for both PvE and PvP.

If you are a new player, trying to join a good established guild, good luck with less than 200 CP

and there are already ppl with 500+ CP. (is my guess bc i know sb with around 400 and he isnt even trying hard to grind)

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom so less than 3 months since the Champion Point system was put into place and there are already people with 500 CP. Seriously how is someone supposed to complete in PVP with 0 CP against someone with 200 let alone 500 CP. This is really going to kill the longevity of the game....

Jeckll · June 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

As a member of another hardcore guild running SO HM for Leaderboards, I tend not to fully agree with your point, Jeckll. First off all, you're never performing on the same level with each run - there'd always be a 1) minor screw-up or unexpected interrupt in DPS rotation (e.g. it's never 20k and 20k only on the same fights, but usually plus/minus 2-3k, which is 10-15% solely out of total 25% that you can get with maxed CPs), 2) a person randomly slowing up the team (overcharge/troll poison/1-shots), 3) etc. Those factors are more related to players' performance rather than CP directly. So when you're saying that your group is getting better and better each run, I'd tend to favor "learning factor" more than "CP factor". To confirm that, you could notice similar progression in your group pre-1.6 with no CP system.

While I think this observation is spot on, we did have runs that were significantly worse than usual pre-1.6. Nowadays, I'd say its a steady, low curve upwards. I'd say if we dont die for a insanely stupid reason at Manticora, it's pretty much sure we'll get a better time. We should factor in here that while the tactics are obviously not the same anymore, we're still running SO for half a year now multiple times a week.

But yeah, learning is definitely a big factor especially considering there are always some newer guys around who have not the same long-term raiding experience.
Thanks for your contributing.

Hexyl · June 2015

The true prob, it's the time that champion system need to be completed.

If news player can catch up olders in a respectable delay of time, (i think 6 months is it ), then this CS can stay like it.

PKMN12 · June 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

at PVP? Nope. The CP system made it so those who play this game will always be the only ones with any possible way to do anythign in PVP.

As opposed to those who do not play this game and instead chose to play Starcraft!?

no, what i mean is that those how play this game A LOT (i.e."no-lifers", "hardcore players", etc) basically rule PVP. in pretty much all other MMO's, once you get good enough gear, you can go to PVP and fight against other palyers on equal or near equal terms, wit teh deciding factor being skill.

this is not true at all in ESO.