The Great Champion Point Divide

F7sus4

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

How can anyone have more than +/- 200? I mean, yes, obviosly this is true, but how?

You're getting around 2 CP with just using your daily enlightenment. If you do a 1-2 daily pledges and farm/grind a bit, you'll use the enlightenment pool in no time. Like 1 hour. If you multiple that by 3 months that already passed with CP Cystem on, it's 180 CP already. Plus those CP that we received in the beginning for VR characters, tadam, you should be 200+ now.

Also, do Dragonstar Arena. It's almost 1 CP without enlightenment per run.
Doing just this, I'm sitting on 261 CP as of 1 June - no grinding.

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Everything currently in the game could be done with 0 CP.

"Could" not necessarily means "should". You probably want at least +12% Spell/Weapon Crit passive and +X% damage-type bonus to boost your main attacks. "Competitive" is also not "just being able to finish", but "doing it as efficient as possible". So while it is possible to run Trials 100% naked, there's no real reason to make your own life more difficult.

Turelus

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Competitive at what?

Everything currently in the game can be done with 0 CP.


That being said, there is not a MMO out there that doesn't let the people that play more have an advantage over the people that play less. The advantage size varies from game to game, but it exists even if it is just in game gold or farming rares.

ESO 1.5, pre champion system. It was about player skill not who have the most extra % damage from that system.

Vizier

Shrug. I have about 160 CP, but one of my friends has 700. As a min-maxer he is singularly focused on CP at the moment. I just don't have that kind of focus or fortitude to grind like that. That said, it's a choice I've made. Anyone can level to Veteran rank within days of starting the game and start to accumulate veteran points. I don't really have a problem with folks having more CP. Thing to remember about CP too is there is a diminishing return for points invested so It seems to me after about 1000 points the differences will marginally measurable.

Personally I'd rather see ESO actually get rid of the Veteran Ranks altogether. That will do more to make the field among new and longtime players more comparable.

Lava_Croft

Turelus wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Competitive at what?

Everything currently in the game can be done with 0 CP.


That being said, there is not a MMO out there that doesn't let the people that play more have an advantage over the people that play less. The advantage size varies from game to game, but it exists even if it is just in game gold or farming rares.

ESO 1.5, pre champion system. It was about player skill not who have the most extra % damage from that system.

Post 1.5, it's about who spent the most time grinding mobs in places like Cracked Wood Cave. The longer you spend mindlessly grinding, the stronger you will be in the Alliance War. It's so bonkers that I feel a certain weird kind of pity for the people who implemented this.

F7sus4

Turelus wrote: »

ESO 1.5, pre champion system. It was about player skill not who have the most extra % damage from that system.

This 10-15% additional damage from CP won't make unexperienced players OP. And since unexperienced players mostly have just a few CP, it's more than no issue.

Alcast

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Atm, I have 173 CP and I'm playing a LOT. How anyone could have (much) more than I have is an enigma to me. But, imho this only "seems" to be a lot of bonuses; the 0,X% you get per CP are so insignificant that I'd say you don't miss much when you have less CP than f.e. I have right now. So I don't think the CS would kill the game

But like in other games, or other things in general, the ones who get there earlier or spend more time there will be ahead of the beginners, until/unless they stop playing or cannot get any higher in progression. But even then, there always will be other new players which don't have a VR14 with 3600 CP. Except for PvP maybe, I don't see a problem there

Dude, with 400+ CP you can have a 25% damage advantage + 12% more crit + 25% more defensive stuff vs a dude with 0 CP.

The impact of CP made the game completly imbalaced for both PvE and PvP.

If you are a new player, trying to join a good established guild, good luck with less than 200 CP


and there are already ppl with 500+ CP. (is my guess bc i know sb with around 400 and he isnt even trying hard to grind)

glavius

I wouldn't say 4 hours per day to get 2 champ points can be defined as easy. Few people with job and family can find the time for that. I probably average around 1 hour effective playtime per day myself.

Faulgor

Yesterday I thought "Hey, why not grind some CP? There's nothing else to do, after all."
So I went through the silver and gold zones for each and every one of my vet characters, looking for an empty space with resonably good mob spawn. It's impossible. Every good spot is hopelessly overrun, and ZOS made sure that killstealing is as alive as ever. Wasn't this supposed to be the "most social MMO to date"? Well that's what they said before release.
Now I already get vile PMs for grinding in the same spot as one (!) other guy, let alone several.

Jeckll

I would not care about those CP grinders getting a ton of CP BUT I dont see a world in which Zenimax will be able to balance new content for those with 0 CP as well as for those with 500 and more. And that is in a game with a compentitive PvE leaderboard.

If they dont factor in CP for the difficulty of future content, hardcode guilds will be bored to death while new players will face unsolveable challenges.

What people also fail to take into account is that while the benefits of CP seem kind of minor, it really adds up in a group of 12 players. We can see that in SO where we constantly improve our times week by week with the same tactic just because people get more and more cp. It's clearly noticeable.

NewBlacksmurf

IDK...is it a big difference? I think most of us as in the 1.5-3% range at best

Faugaun

Just throwing my two cents in here I've got about 170 cp with no grinding. Im an altaholic and have been working on getting the last of my toons to vr1 so that everything I do will be building cp. Doing a few hubs easily = 1 unenlightened cp. Doing all dungeon quests (after vr) easily gives 1 cp un enlighted fairly quickly. It seems like every time I look in my CS on given character I have more points to spend and I'm usually like "hey cool I've got another 10 points to spend!" . that said I get it I am pretty far behind someone with 600 but I don't care about trials (would care then) and frankly I think the difference is less meaningful in PvP than in trials.

You watch all the videos the people winning in PvP are not winning because of op gear and op stats they are winning because they Los kite use terrain to their advantage, get the jump on their enemy from steath and synergistically use their skills. Yeah some cp helps but in PvP where you can crank 27k burst DPs that 2 second stun is way more valuable than the cp bonuses difference between 200 and 1000 cp.

Cously

I really failed maths at school. But even for me is clear to see this will be a problem in few years. There is no fair way that a new account with 0 champion points can compete with one with 3600 in PVP. Regardless of how long one takes to reach 3600, the distance is 0 to 3600. Think of it. Now if they remove veteran ranks and put the contents tied to the champion system level...then maybe we will have a fair scenario. But being account wide...my 3600 new alt will pawn any new players. Then if they do put limits, it will be 3600 levels.

psufan5

Like it or not, the CP divide is terrible. The ones who have over 350-400 are basically unkillable in PVP.

Jeckll

Faugaun wrote: »

You watch all the videos the people winning in PvP are not winning because of op gear and op stats they are winning because they Los kite use terrain to their advantage, get the jump on their enemy from steath and synergistically use their skills.

How does that help in a fight between two guys with equal skills? The whole "skill is worth more than CP" argument is not valid at all. Because we're not talking about ganking noobs or being better in the leaderboard than a freshly formed guild. We're talking about competing with other guys that are as skilled as we are but frankly have put more time and effort into grinding.

That being said and as I said before - I personally have no issue with that in general, just saying that it does make a noticeable difference and does lead to a situation where skilled new players will not be motivated to even start ESO because they will not be able to compete EVER (or for a freaking long time) with those ppl who grinded for months. And it demotivates players who have to take a break for personal reasons, come back 2 months later to see that the whole guild moved on CP wise an there is no way to catch up.

dodgehopper_ESO

I think if they make CP-capped tiers for Campaigns it could help some concerns in pvp.

koetty

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think if they make CP-capped tiers for Campaigns it could help some concerns in pvp.

Exactly what I thought! Make different campaigns for different lvls/cps!

Faugaun

Jeckll wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

You watch all the videos the people winning in PvP are not winning because of op gear and op stats they are winning because they Los kite use terrain to their advantage, get the jump on their enemy from steath and synergistically use their skills.

How does that help in a fight between two guys with equal skills? The whole "skill is worth more than CP" argument is not valid at all. Because we're not talking about ganking noobs or being better in the leaderboard than a freshly formed guild. We're talking about competing with other guys that are as skilled as we are but frankly have put more time and effort into grinding.

That being said and as I said before - I personally have no issue with that in general, just saying that it does make a noticeable difference and does lead to a situation where skilled new players will not be motivated to even start ESO because they will not be able to compete EVER (or for a freaking long time) with those ppl who grinded for months. And it demotivates players who have to take a break for personal reasons, come back 2 months later to see that the whole guild moved on CP wise an there is no way to catch up.

Because skill + luck is never equal someone always has the advantage, a skilled player has the advantage more often than the unskilled player. If I can jump from stealth and 1hit you for 75% health then 1 hitnyou again or kill , but you had 25% defensive bonus so I only hit you for 56.25% each hit.....guess what i still 2-shot killed you......probably before you saw/hit me especially if I had a stun....who won ? Skill! Suppose you did get a hit on me and had +25% damage....you only hit me for 93.75% of my life....so no matter you had +25% defense and +25% offense....I still won before the first attack was launched.

Cously

I really failed maths at school. But even for me is clear to see this will be a problem in few years. There

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think if they make CP-capped tiers for Campaigns it could help some concerns in pvp.

That. I believe the nice BwB was trashed because CP. The difference is not so noticeable now because people more or less started with same champion points, but give it some months. Also a new player will be dusted in there. CP Tied Campaigns is the way to go.

IcyDeadPeople

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

not sure but yeah its a huge worry. i know my friend who i played heaps with is atm not playing, waiting for new stuff. is gonna be REALLY far behind when he comes back and we play together. and he will never catch up.
i do my point a day and maybe another 1-3 points a week ontop of that and im on 185.

u are worried about 170. there are atm people with 440+ and even more people on 250-300

How can anyone have more than +/- 200? I mean, yes, obviosly this is true, but how? Either their days must have 100 hours, or there's something wrong with the system. I should know since I play really a LOT (as I stated earlier already). More than 250 can't have been achieved yet, if not for a bug.

200 is not so extreme these days. I understand there are some players with more than double this amount.
.

dennissomb16_ESO

Most of the potential concern with the gap that CP will cause is solved by joining a decent guild or building a good friends list. Pugging is where you see a lot of the less desirable behavior (in most MMOs). PvP is of slightly more concern since the gap causes some serious imbalance that will get worse over time and make it very difficult for new players. I think zenimax could do them selves a huge favor and make the non-vet PvP campaign CP free (wishful thinking)

Player gaps exist in most major MMOs when it comes to gear/velvels/CP etc. Progression keeps people playing

Tors

olsborg wrote: »

Im thinking, in about 6 months time, the grinders are gonna be so far away from certain other players that the divide is going to be quite apparent, specially in pvp.

Im worried.

Dont be worried, they wont be in PvP, they will be grinding. their addiction will continue till its maxed at 3200.

That will take some time, even for a grinder

ragespell

If you want to stay in the 90th percentile, you should be able to grind your ass off.
So no work, few friends and no girl/boyfriend.

I think it would be more than fair if ZoS would give players the chance to buy at least some of this difference between who can grind and who can't.

And ehi, if a guy is rich and can spend lot's of money AND grind his ass off, more power to him. I'm not a jealous and my p e n i s is big enough

Jeckll

Faugaun wrote: »

Because skill + luck is never equal someone always has the advantage, a skilled player has the advantage more often than the unskilled player. If I can jump from stealth and 1hit you for 75% health then 1 hitnyou again or kill , but you had 25% defensive bonus so I only hit you for 56.25% each hit.....guess what i still 2-shot killed you......probably before you saw/hit me especially if I had a stun....who won ? Skill! Suppose you did get a hit on me and had +25% damage....you only hit me for 93.75% of my life....so no matter you had +25% defense and +25% offense....I still won before the first attack was launched.

As I said, equally skilled players fighting. If you dont 1shot someone, there is time to shield up ... take a potion ... go in stealth ... do anything.

If your laser beam vison melts me, your Jedi Powers force me into jumping a down from a mountain or you have a Anti-Jeckll-Spray in your Batman Belt doesnt change the fact that PvP is not only about ganking people but there are also real fights in there, going on for minutes and are decided by CP if Skill and Gear is equal.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Faugaun

Jeckll wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Because skill + luck is never equal someone always has the advantage, a skilled player has the advantage more often than the unskilled player. If I can jump from stealth and 1hit you for 75% health then 1 hitnyou again or kill , but you had 25% defensive bonus so I only hit you for 56.25% each hit.....guess what i still 2-shot killed you......probably before you saw/hit me especially if I had a stun....who won ? Skill! Suppose you did get a hit on me and had +25% damage....you only hit me for 93.75% of my life....so no matter you had +25% defense and +25% offense....I still won before the first attack was launched.

As I said, equally skilled players fighting. If you dont 1shot someone, there is time to shield up ... take a potion ... go in stealth ... do anything.

If your laser beam vison melts me, your Jedi Powers force me into jumping a down from a mountain or you have a Anti-Jeckll-Spray in your Batman Belt doesnt change the fact that PvP is not only about ganking people but there are also real fights in there, going on for minutes and are decided by CP if Skill and Gear is equal.

Skill is never equal....need I repeat myself...

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Epona222

Meh, I have a very handsome husband, if I spend time with him rather than grinding for CP in ESO I do not think I have lost anything!

LtCrunch

Yinmaigao wrote: »

There are several other topics addressing this already, however, I do see this as becoming a problem in the near future (with the removal of vet ranks) as a "weeding mechanism" for forming groups. It makes me sick to my stomach that we will soon see "LFM Vet pledge, 90+ champ points or GTFO!"

I wish they would make some sort of a "catch-up" mechanism that only functions to, say, 80% number of champion points that anyone on the server has.

Side note: I know of at least 3 people who have over 600 points already. Let that sink in for a minute when you think about the differential

How is that any different than what we have now? "LFM vet pledge VR12+ only" is effectively the same as "LFM vet pledge 90+ CP only". Fact is groups will always gat content using whatever means exist. There are groups that do it by level, experience, achievements, etc. The removal of vet ranks does not produce a new way for groups to gate; A CP gate just replaces the existing gate.

It's not really a legitimate concern for group gating. Now for PVP it may become an issue.

technohic

Looking at it from a casual stand point; yes, all MMOs have some sort of gap between who grinds faster and those who log in less, usally done with new gear tiers or level increase whereas this one it is the champion points. I would be more willing to take the one that has a reset every now and then with new gear or new levels being capped for a while to where I can catch up over time over the one that if you are slower, the gap will always be getting wider.

Cuyler

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Atm, I have 173 CP and I'm playing a LOT. How anyone could have (much) more than I have is an enigma to me. But, imho this only "seems" to be a lot of bonuses; the 0,X% you get per CP are so insignificant that I'd say you don't miss much when you have less CP than f.e. I have right now. So I don't think the CS would kill the game

But like in other games, or other things in general, the ones who get there earlier or spend more time there will be ahead of the beginners, until/unless they stop playing or cannot get any higher in progression. But even then, there always will be other new players which don't have a VR14 with 3600 CP. Except for PvP maybe, I don't see a problem there

Players who exploited the mudcrab grind in Fungal Grotto for weeks making 2-3 CPs and HOUR

Epona222

Brandalf, how do I send you a PM? I find these forums horribly confusing. (Sorry to everyone else on the thread btw).

traigusb14_ESO2

I see a lot of skill vs. CP stuff here. Honestly since Closed beta, I have never been killed by 1 person in PVP ever. I have never seen a "fair fight" where it is 1 person vs. another directly and without interference.

Every legit fight I have ever been in, I have been fighting more than 1 person.. and had more than 1 person on my side as well.

Every time I have been ganked, when questing, looking for shards, at Dolmens.. guess what... more than 1 person, usually at least 3.

SO yeah, 30 high CP people vs 30 low CP people is going to be an issue.... 2 groups of mixed CP people (much more likely)... not so much.

When 3 people are hanging near a skyshard waiting for me. It doesn't matter how many CP I have or how many CP they have... I'm toast.