Are Templars balanced now?

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

technohic wrote: »

Templars do great in PvE as NPCs typically do not purge often, or move out of blazing spear, and do not bother to stay away from blazing shield bursting. They also tend to politely just stand in biting jabs even though jabs itself even politely trys to knock a target backwards out of its own range if you are not already CC immune from it.

The problem in PvP is our damage is cast, channelled or DOT. Even our best CC is a ground target AOE thats damage (if you take the damage morph) relies on targets staying in the area while it stuns just one target, if they happened to have stayed there long enough for it to land int he first place. So everything can be countered by interrupt, purge, or just move out of the way. Then the slow projectiles make it way easy to dodge.

Then you have slow animations and bugs...

So its not the power, its the presentation.

I mostly agree, though I would add that every other class has either an AoE CC or an escape; Templars have neither. This means we can neither escape from a battle nor prevent our enemies from doing so. That is really an Achilles Heel.

technohic · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Templars do great in PvE as NPCs typically do not purge often, or move out of blazing spear, and do not bother to stay away from blazing shield bursting. They also tend to politely just stand in biting jabs even though jabs itself even politely trys to knock a target backwards out of its own range if you are not already CC immune from it.

The problem in PvP is our damage is cast, channelled or DOT. Even our best CC is a ground target AOE thats damage (if you take the damage morph) relies on targets staying in the area while it stuns just one target, if they happened to have stayed there long enough for it to land int he first place. So everything can be countered by interrupt, purge, or just move out of the way. Then the slow projectiles make it way easy to dodge.

Then you have slow animations and bugs...

So its not the power, its the presentation.

I mostly agree, though I would add that every other class has either an AoE CC or an escape; Templars have neither. This means we can neither escape from a battle nor prevent our enemies from doing so. That is really an Achilles Heel.

Thats a fair point as well.

Cinbri · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Templars do great in PvE as NPCs typically do not purge often, or move out of blazing spear, and do not bother to stay away from blazing shield bursting. They also tend to politely just stand in biting jabs even though jabs itself even politely trys to knock a target backwards out of its own range if you are not already CC immune from it.

The problem in PvP is our damage is cast, channelled or DOT. Even our best CC is a ground target AOE thats damage (if you take the damage morph) relies on targets staying in the area while it stuns just one target, if they happened to have stayed there long enough for it to land int he first place. So everything can be countered by interrupt, purge, or just move out of the way. Then the slow projectiles make it way easy to dodge.

Then you have slow animations and bugs...

So its not the power, its the presentation.

I mostly agree, though I would add that every other class has either an AoE CC or an escape; Templars have neither. This means we can neither escape from a battle nor prevent our enemies from doing so. That is really an Achilles Heel.

And for some reason i don't understand why only templars are suffering from it.

Saft · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

PVE apart from broken skills wer fine, magica dps build is abit weak and could need some improvement.

PVP wer being *** zenimax nerfs to blazing shield along with general HP nerf took away from us the only defence we had. Also hard CC to jabs make it harder, along with all bugged templar skills zenmix don't care about fix.

Cinbri · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

The problem of pvp templars is not damage, but: 1) no viable CC skills at all, and CC is huge part of pvp 2)heavily nerfed defensive capabilities. Now templar can only use blazing shield and breath for def, however high cp invest make breath so good that bs becoming useless=1 viable def ability.

BRogueNZ · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

I can understand some of the reluctance to make making changes to Templar. It would not take much of a shift to be OP .

Bugs aside (because I think they'll eventually be fixed) range needs some beef/burst.

I can take or leave Radiant, it's situational, easy to avoid and feels tacky.

Rather have a mentionable proc (like a crystal frags) off sun fire myself.

Koopa · May 2015

Yes, Templars are balanced now

Very strong stam dps, very good healers, respectable tanks, decent magic dps. That sounds balanced to me, not op not completely useless at everything. They lack an escape for pvp which makes 1vX difficult but is still doable.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2015

Yes, Templars are balanced now

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Yea, no. I don't know what you're doing but my DPS is usually higher than most and the only two people to consistently top me is a NB and DK. Seriously I'm struggling to learn where people are having trouble playing a Templar in PvE.

I mean ***, I'm an Imperial Stam build and I've healed Vet Dungeons and Reg DSA in purples with white enchants and no set jewels. It really isn't insanely hard at all and I don't see how exactly other classes outperform us as healers. If anything I'm game now to bring more than just templars to heal my raids, but you can bet your ass I'm bringing at least two or three and one is sure as hell being a healer.

Well, if your DPS is usually topped by a NB and a DK, that is 2 of the other 3 classes. And as far as the other class goes, that is the one that inspires "please nerf" threads everyday in the PvP forums so it ain't all that bad.

You misunderstand, as so many others do; that's two people. Two. Not all DKs and not all NBs. Just one of each that I've met. I see other Templars get numbers matching mine too, one or two even surpassing me. What you fail grasp in this, and why you think we're such bad DPS, is that it doesn't rely so much on the class to be powerful, but the player's own skill.

Yours and many others clear lack of skill, for all four classes, paints a very interesting picture for how DPS is actually obtained, and who is "best". Next time, ask yourself what you're doing and could you do better before daring to misconstrue words and say our class, which was total ass before, is the worst class.

We need work in PvP, about it. Not having blinding flashes is not the end of the world, and god forbid you have to actually work as a team with other players to not get feared or whatever it is that bothers you

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

Imo, Jesus Beam was only invented to make the nurf of Blinding Flashes (the Templar's only serious AE-CC) digestable! Nobody, not even other Templars, complain too much about the nurfs in 1.6. and Blinding Flashes is already being forgotten.

Blinding Flashes was what kept me alive against the fear inducing NBs. Now I don't really have a counter for them. Let's not forget nerfs to Radiant Destruction that have come out since it appeared - it's not really the Jesus beam, anymore - it's more like "I'm a magicka Templar. Free AP here." spotlight.

Zsymon wrote: »

Templars are by far the worst class of the game, it doesn't even come close to the other classes. Templar skills are either useless, underpowered or bugged. Under VR10 it is not so bad, at least in PvE, you can come by with spamming Puncturing Strikes as either magicka or stamina, but once you hit VR14 you will under-perform in every roll and in every part of the game.

In PvP Templars are just free APs, they have no way to kill anyone decent, due to having no magicka dps on one hand and no CC that breaks through block for stamina users on the other hand, and neither builds have any way to survive any length of time.

Templars were good at one thing only: healing, and ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided to nerf Templar healing into the ground, cutting it literally in half, where any other class with a staff is better now, due to strong skills such as DK's have with their Igneous Shield, or Sorcerers with their increased spell power and magicka regeneration, or Nightblades with some very strong healing spells.

It really depends on build and playstyle in pvp. I've abandoned almost all healing (I use Purifying Ritual) and most Templar skills - due to their bugs. Nothing is worse than being unable to stealth or unable mount a horse because someone you healed 10 minutes ago is still in combat.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

For PvP maybe. For PvE I love my Templar DPS, and let me rephrase my first comment; Templar PvP and Magicka DPS need a revision, but even then it's not that severe. Like Christ, you guys are really upset far more than you should be. Not saying you shouldn't be upset, but this is nowhere near as bad as we used to be.

First, they have to fix our bugged skills; the big one for me is Repentance not working with Restoring Light passives. Then for PvP, I think ZOS needs to give us either an escape or an AOE CC. Eclipse might be a good candidate - the more they try to fix it, the more it breaks.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And again, it's all from how you view it.

Purifying Light instant cast is the best ever. I'm going through Caldwell's and soloing the bosses I skipped over.
Really, all I want is our Templar skills to be less buggy (or on par with weapon skill equivalents) and to have a defined role in PvP - escape or cc. Or maybe one skill that can morph into either an escape or area cc.

Finally, somebody who gets it, or at least mostly gets it.

Cinbri · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Don't know about escape ability, but zos MUST give us at least 1 root ability. For now pvp templars known for best healing and as only class without roots.

Francescolg · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

I've lost hope for the templar.

Once ago, I was able to pop my blazing shield and to do something more or less meaningful, like rushing into 2-5 enemies and doing that little bit of damage I was able to do them, while - if I was lucky - the enemies focused on me and I let my blazing shield work for me (combined with other skills in between). The thing was that the Blazing shield alone was able to protect me for a little while. This has changed dramatically..

Nowadays 1-2 or two sorcerers focusing you are enough to get the blazing shield down as fast as never before. Even if you manage to get 40k+ HP, Blazing Shield, it seems worthless compared to the overall raise in damage. Sorcs will just spam instant skills over and over, so they get a free 10-20k crystal frag every third cast. At the same time, if I spam instants on them, the window of opportunity is very small. Healing won't help you to sustain the inc damage numbers!

-> Templar's instant damage is far-from-meaningful. If you leave out all channeled and casted spells, templars suck deeply. If you start using skills with channeling or casting time, your need a better life insurance..

So, while, as a sorcerer, I do not rage so much about max-defense spec's (and these are becoming the standart in pvp), as a templar all I got is "spell penetration" and CC. While as a class with great burst capabilities, I don't bother so much if a Crystal Fragment hits for 8k or 16k, since the next one will come soon. (I took the Sorc just as an arbitrary example)

Most templars arguing "yes" in this thread think that our channeled and casted skills are still valuable and they act as if CC was no problem at all, given our "great heals" that help us to survive... In times when people do massive amounts of instant damage and you got glass cannons coming from stealth left and right.

In some cases you -omg- class shield isn't even enough to protect you from one singular weapon attack! (...even your heals can't compete with the dmg numbers other's inflict, so that you have to add healing ward/barrier before healing, if you really want to save sb...)

I'd advise any new player to try out another class before playing templar, if you also want to play alone in PvP from time to time, or in very small groups. If you want to be "more" than a healer, if you want to see more colors of the rainbow in PvP.
Playing other classes should be mandatory, because you want to know how they function!

But in this case you have to play other classes, to understand a) why their passives are better designed, why they b) offer you much more diversity and c) how their burst damage and CC works better.
Survivability is the other big part but I won't write about escape and mobility-skills, cause this was already too much text, sorry about that.

My advise: play another class, make your own opinion! Do not believe everything people write, as often it is a group-player telling you how to play a Templar. While, in a big group you can play every spec you want! Not at all you have to even think about class balance!

Before the last patch, we were a class that had little burst capabilities but, at the same time, we were given great "defense" abilities (1 AoE CC, 1 good absorb shield, significant [crit-] healing capabilities, an important synergy with healing staff [10% more on healing] AND an 80% HP/Stamina regeneration Aura) to make up for it. This patch took all of the before mentioned defenses and therefore it is the biggest nurf Templars have had so far. And, as if this alone wasn't enough, they cut your health points by 30%, just to BE SURE that Blazing Shield won't absorb too much --> This is their interpretation of class balance!

Nonetheless, if I played 100% of my time in a group, maybe I wouldn't notice at all that sth. did change with the last patch ;-)

Soris · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Francescolg wrote: »

Before the last patch, we were a class that had little burst capabilities but, at the same time, we were given great "defense" abilities (1 AoE CC, 1 good absorb shield, significant [crit-] healing capabilities, an important synergy with healing staff [10% more on healing] AND an 80% HP/Stamina regeneration Aura) to make up for it. This patch took all of the before mentioned defenses and therefore it is the biggest nurf Templars have had so far. And, as if this alone wasn't enough, they cut your health points by 30%, just to BE SURE that Blazing Shield won't absorb too much --> This is their interpretation of class balance!

Nonetheless, if I played 100% of my time in a group, maybe I wouldn't notice at all that sth. did change with the last patch ;-)

Well the whole post is perfectly written but this little part here as a conclusion, is pretty much what we're dealing with atm.

That being said, I wouldn't mind any channeled or hard cast skills if I had great defence to cover my ass while I casting.

Francescolg wrote: »

-> Templar's instant damage is far-from-meaningful. If you leave out all channeled and casted spells, templars suck deeply. If you start using skills with channeling or casting time, your need a better life insurance..

Just like this. I think actually this was the idea of templar class in this game and I had zero problems with that.

But when you(Zos) nerf the defensive capabilities of the class and left it with tons of hard cast&channeled skills, then you create a big problem.

Shield+Flashes+Immovable+Heal+Aura were all we need to survive in a battle like a boss. Every single of them either got a significant nerf or completely removed.(wtf) And in return, we got a small damage increase and little tweaks to some our skills. I don't understand why is this punishment

Cinbri · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Since ZOS care about pve and don't care about pvp, i doubt pvp templars will be ever fixed.

TheGOHgamer · May 2015

Kind of makes me regret making a Templar. I created it for the healing in PVE but soon realized that in PVP it is not really worth it as you are only going to prolong your group members life for like 5 seconds more while you get ganked by everyone else with knockbacks, stuns, CCs everywhere. So you are relegated to sitting back and watching the fun from afar. This didn't do it for me.

Currently working on a DPS magicka build for my Templar but it isn't that good either. I like to be the mage type, long range caster dps which Templar does not offer due to it's lack of range dps skills, (too late to change now).

We lack instant skills as most of our attacks are either channelled or have a cast time which will get you killed in PVP. As range I really have no options. I have been working on a rotation to compensate but still not great. My first bar rotation goes something like this:

1) I start off with purifying light which does no damage of it's own but stores any damage done to the enemy during that time and releases it with a X% damage boost. (This would be great if I have some spammable instant skills to bombard the enemy but I don't so have to rely on heavy destro staff attacks)

2) Then I go into reflective light which does initial flame damage and the Flame DoTs, decreases enemy movement speed which is a plus and increases your spell critical.

3) While they are slowed, I can then use dark flare because it has a 1.1 second cast time (¬_¬), and would not be viable in any other situation. This does "heavy damage" is a healing debuff and increases the damage of your next attack by X%.

4) Then if allowed, I go into the radiant destruction finisher which has a 2.5 second channel time.

5) Of course magelight is always toggled to give that increase in spell critical.

I am trying to maximize spell critical and damage because it really gives me no other option due to lack of spammable instant high damage ranged burst skills like you get with sorcs lol. So your skills, rather than do instant max damage on their own
are just filler to increase spell damage and criticals which is my only option.

I don't use destro staff skills because they are useless to me and don't complement the templar well. Plus there isn't enough space on the bars and more often than not your enemy closes the gap and your pretty much screwed in CQC and especially with no escape. So I am forced to go with a close range rotation which can be used in between the first bar rotation depending on what the situation calls for.

(This one really isn't important to me so I won't go into much detail)

1) magelight is still toggled here, which only leave 4 spaces.

2) javelin for knockback when they get to close.

3) I can then use toppling charge to close that gap and do damage when they are knocked down. This also stuns them. (As range, why I would want to close the gap, I don't know lol)

4) Then puncturing sweep that does X% additional dmg to the nearest enemy and provides knockback on last hit, and heals you for X% of dmg done.

5) Breath of life for burst heals when needed in between rotations though I am thinking of switching this out for blazing shield or maybe immovable from the heavy armor tree as that is an anti-CC which is better for pvp i would assume, though I could use both shields but there is no way to fit both into the rotation.

So this rotation I find to be somewhat effective though I had to build it like this as I really have no other choice due to the lack of ranged dps skills which I would have on both bars. Our range skills can't even fill up one bar, lol. (I hate CQC).

I could make an OP sorc which would be better for my playstyle but honestly I tried levelling two sorcs and they were both so boring. The sorc animations could do with a revamp becaue they are so bland, lol. You are powerful but your little light whoe looks meh. Still like my templar flashy animations which make me feel godly but of course still weaker than a fly lol. Oh well.

slaweqkeb17_ESO · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

TheGOHgamer wrote: »

Kind of makes me regret making a Templar.

That one. PVPwise.

Francescolg · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

TheGOHgamer wrote: »

1) I start off with purifying light which does no damage of it's own but stores any

Don't use this skill in PvP. It is slow (+you don't do the burst damage to significantly fill it with power) and you should not even mention it in a pvp-context

(Only situation I could imagine using it is a group leader who gives targets to assist...a skill to mark targets)

Think also about Reflective light, which is a) slow and has b) very low initial damage in a c) PvP enviroment where targets die in 3-5 seconds? Can this DoT develop it's full potential in a typical pvp fight? (even if it's a small AE)? Does this DoT grant you enough burst damage to get a fair part of the "PvP Xp" an enemy is worth? Or is the damage contribution you do with this subpar damage skill/DoT so low that your "PvP points per kill" will be as unsignificant as the damage you did?

Dark Flare, RD and Javelin is what we got to do DPS as class skills. If you want to do highest burst just use Javelin + RD, cause (in my exp) in the time Dark Flare takes to "travel", two other guys attack the same target with Aimed Shot and 2h-charge, killing it and getting a much higer "kill ratio".. While you are still casting with a bugged animation time..

If you wanna do damage go for 2h or bow. Magic Spells will soon do just 50% of their damage cause many PvP players are panicly trying to raise their magic resistances, because of the sorcerer plague which came with 1.6..
Just ask guys selling Nirnhorned gems, how much the demand went up after the last patch ;-)

Francescolg · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

ups :-)

Earthwardzilvox_ESO · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

I know templars that can have a top notch dps, healing, and tanking spec with fewer skill points than people who are less effective with just one role. No, templars are not even remotely balanced. Their heals are still overpowered, their dps requires three moves to stomp face, and their tanking basically negates the need for a healer in the group.

Bouvin · May 2015

Yes, Templars are balanced now

Just fix the bugs.

I'm starting to feel like Templar is kind of where Nightblade was the past year. Fun class, but full of bugs that should have been fixed long ago.

Suntzu1414 · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Bouvin wrote: »

Just fix the bugs.

I'm starting to feel like Templar is kind of where Nightblade was the past year. Fun class, but full of bugs that should have been fixed long ago.

my exact feeling...

The only difference is ..instead of fixing the bugs,
they just "encouraged" NBs to be come stam builds.

Kill Well
ST

AngersRevenge · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

While I believe that a Templar is the best in PvE. When it comes to PvP we can't even hold a stick to any of the other classes. Not even a twig.

SeptimusDova · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

This>>>
from theGOHgamer" We lack instant skills as most of our attacks are either channelled or have a cast time which will get you killed in PVP. As range I really have no options. I have been working on a rotation to compensate but still not great. My first bar rotation goes something like this:

3) While they are slowed, I can then use dark flare because it has a 1.1 second cast time (¬_¬), and would not be viable in any other situation. This does "heavy damage" is a healing debuff and increases the damage of your next attack by X%.

4) Then if allowed, I go into the radiant destruction finisher which has a 2.5 second channel time.

And this >>> PvP enviroment where targets die in 3-5 seconds

Then this >>>>
@ fizzlewizzle In PvP this doesn't work however. The Templars Attacks are slow, and pack little punsh.
Number wise would be on par with the other classes, if not for the fact that everything we have is DoT, Channeled or has a casting time (or, just plain low overall damage). from post number 842 in
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p29

One more delay>>>
You cannot get benefit from the Focused Healing passive if you rapidly cast Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life. You have to wait until the first HOT tick to get that passive work which is 2 seconds.

lets add some numbers

Dark Flare 1.1. seconds
Radiant self Destruction 2.5 seconds
Thats 3.6 seconds

now you need to heal so IF (Situational and conditional) you cast

Rushed ceremony add the animation delay. which If i remember correctly can be interrupted by the NB Mass Hysteria II

If some other Templar was in your group and used jabs/strikes some of your opponents just got a free 5 second helping hand.

Eclipse just speed buffed the DK who is running around like nuts raising havoc and confusion.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
Rushed Ceremony has a noticeable animation delay.
The launch frame of this ability is just slower than some of the other abilities by design. Since Rushed Ceremony is already very powerful, we’re ok with the fact that part of the skill of using this ability effectively is being able to anticipate damage.

the summation>>>

The cast times, channel times and delay in animations alone are longer than a PVP fight.

balanced no unless you call being a storage vault and materials mule being balanced.

Tankqull · May 2015

unable to judge if they are balanced as 40% of there skills are obviously bugged and not working like comparable abilities of other classes.

Joy_Division · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Yea, no. I don't know what you're doing but my DPS is usually higher than most and the only two people to consistently top me is a NB and DK. Seriously I'm struggling to learn where people are having trouble playing a Templar in PvE.

I mean ***, I'm an Imperial Stam build and I've healed Vet Dungeons and Reg DSA in purples with white enchants and no set jewels. It really isn't insanely hard at all and I don't see how exactly other classes outperform us as healers. If anything I'm game now to bring more than just templars to heal my raids, but you can bet your ass I'm bringing at least two or three and one is sure as hell being a healer.

Well, if your DPS is usually topped by a NB and a DK, that is 2 of the other 3 classes. And as far as the other class goes, that is the one that inspires "please nerf" threads everyday in the PvP forums so it ain't all that bad.

You misunderstand, as so many others do; that's two people. Two. Not all DKs and not all NBs. Just one of each that I've met. I see other Templars get numbers matching mine too, one or two even surpassing me. What you fail grasp in this, and why you think we're such bad DPS, is that it doesn't rely so much on the class to be powerful, but the player's own skill.

Yours and many others clear lack of skill, for all four classes, paints a very interesting picture for how DPS is actually obtained, and who is "best". Next time, ask yourself what you're doing and could you do better before daring to misconstrue words and say our class, which was total ass before, is the worst class.

We need work in PvP, about it. Not having blinding flashes is not the end of the world, and god forbid you have to actually work as a team with other players to not get feared or whatever it is that bothers you

You claim that I have no skill yet tell me that I have to work as a team to not get feared? You have no idea how this game works, do you?

Soris · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Not having blinding flashes is not the end of the world

Not having Blinding Flashes is actually pretty big deal in this current meta along with Blazing Shield nerf.
Just imagine how big impact they could do to templar survivability where everyone and their grandmas playing with melee stamina build.

F7sus4 · May 2015

No, Templars are still not balanced

Because they have the best healing of all classes and comparable DPS, which is huge advantage. Should be either 1 or 2.

Zsymon · May 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

Because they have the best healing of all classes and comparable DPS, which is huge advantage. Should be either 1 or 2.

Their healing has been nerfed massively, and they don't have a single viable skill, magicka or stamina, to support a PvP DPS build.

Davadin · May 2015

DISCLAIMER: I do not have a Templar or Sorc VR-level toons. I only play my DK 99% of the time.

Strictly PvP speaking, IMHO, Templar is balanced. They tank well, and perhaps although their survivability seems a little nerfed, their jezus beam is pretty damn annoying.

Sorc on the other hand...