Dodge roll cost

Domander · May 2015

So.. the idea struck me that maybe to make dodge roll a bit more meaningful would be to make the general stamina cost reduction not apply to it anymore. I would propose this reduction moved to the current "shield play" enchantment and change the "shield play" enchantment to a "defense cost" enchantment instead. This would mean a choice between defense cost and ability cost.

I doubt if this would fix the unlimited resource issue.. but maybe it would help make dodge roll something not spammed quite as much, with no regard for the resource cost.

Sharee · May 2015

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

Iyas · May 2015

Not this thread again. Search function is your friend. Ezareth made more or less the same suggestions.

Domander · May 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

True, maybe some other solution would be better... it's just frustrating that some players get to the point of resource cost being of no concern. It's a trend I see.. get to the point you don't run out of resources then use the most powerful things as much as you want (dodge roll, shields, escapes,heals, etc)

This thought about dodge roll came to me after I started attacking someone and all they did was dodge roll.. literally all they did lol. Resource management has always been a skill.. and some players are just bypassing the need for it now.

Domander · May 2015

Iyas wrote: »

Not this thread again. Search function is your friend. Ezareth made more or less the same suggestions.

Yeah, I saw his thread, it was a giant wall of text that I didn't want to read, lol.

Cinnamon_Spider · May 2015

Domander wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Not this thread again. Search function is your friend. Ezareth made more or less the same suggestions.

Yeah, I saw his thread, it was a giant wall of text that I didn't want to read, lol.

You probably should read it. He mentioned the issues with dodge roll and with regen in general, which you made another post about.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161212/rise-of-the-perma-dodger

Domander · May 2015

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Not this thread again. Search function is your friend. Ezareth made more or less the same suggestions.

Yeah, I saw his thread, it was a giant wall of text that I didn't want to read, lol.

You probably should read it. He mentioned the issues with dodge roll and with regen in general, which you made another post about.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161212/rise-of-the-perma-dodger

My post about regen is both kinds, not just stamina. It's also more generalized and I want it to be talked about without being tied to dodge rolling. When you try to jam a bunch of stuff into a post like that it doesn't really end up being as productive imo, though more informative and argument supporting.

I create threads for discussion of things that I see a need.

ToRelax · May 2015

The problem are infinite resources and cost reduction, not specific abilities/actions. Changing the cost of spammable powerful abilities will just make them useless once resource management will count more again in a fight.

Erock25 · May 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

I understand your point about some builds not being able to obtain near unlimited doge rolls, but you are kidding yourself if you think all builds that are specced for infinite dodge roll sacrifice damage. I see you posting around alliance war forums and there are vids of Sypher and Benzy having extreme burst DPS combined with unlimited dodge rolling. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Ezareth · May 2015

Domander wrote: »

So.. the idea struck me that maybe to make dodge roll a bit more meaningful would be to make the general stamina cost reduction not apply to it anymore. I would propose this reduction moved to the current "shield play" enchantment and change the "shield play" enchantment to a "defense cost" enchantment instead. This would mean a choice between defense cost and ability cost.

I doubt if this would fix the unlimited resource issue.. but maybe it would help make dodge roll something not spammed quite as much, with no regard for the resource cost.

Is today "Rehash Ezareth's arguments into my own Thread Day" or what?

Ffastyl · May 2015

The issue does seem to be tied to cost reductions and the overall resource management game. There are some who do not want to play the resource game, and will stubbornly try to work around the core mechanic of combat (I have met someone who quit because 1.6.0 made resource management matter). Ignoring the Champion System for now (as it will need fine tuning later), cost reduction, maximum resources and regeneration need to be looked at and fine tuned. The bases for each is at a good spot, but how they interact with abilities, defensive maneuvers, and scale at high values are balance breaking.

Cost reduction is mentioned in the OP, it affects all things that cost the specified resource, allowing for a circumvention of resource management.

Maximum resources, at high values, allow for excessive burst damage and Hardened Ward strength (it's been talked about a lot, I think we all know Hardened Ward is the only damage shield to scale off Magicka and block all incoming damage types).

Regeneration, if focused on, can exceed 4,000, also circumventing resource management.

To go through suggested tweaks for each:
Cost Reduction applies to abilities of the respective resource, not defensive maneuvers like Break Free and Dodge Roll.

Maximum Resources should not affect the strength of abilities, making ability strength dependent solely on Weapon/Spell Power.
Maximum Resources should scale logarithmically, contributing less and less to ability strength as the resource rises above a soft cap. The Maximum Value is not soft capped.

Look over the means by which to increase regeneration, including Champion System, sets, Racial passives, and Armor passives, and balance accordingly.

Xsorus · May 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

I understand your point about some builds not being able to obtain near unlimited doge rolls, but you are kidding yourself if you think all builds that are specced for infinite dodge roll sacrifice damage. I see you posting around alliance war forums and there are vids of Sypher and Benzy having extreme burst DPS combined with unlimited dodge rolling. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm specced for extreme damage, I have 900 stamina recovery with tri pot up on my DK..

900.....

I could probably get more..but then i'm in the 17000 health ballpark on a class with like zero mobility.

cozmon3c_ESO · May 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

I understand your point about some builds not being able to obtain near unlimited doge rolls, but you are kidding yourself if you think all builds that are specced for infinite dodge roll sacrifice damage. I see you posting around alliance war forums and there are vids of Sypher and Benzy having extreme burst DPS combined with unlimited dodge rolling. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm specced for extreme damage, I have 900 stamina recovery with tri pot up on my DK..

900.....

I could probably get more..but then i'm in the 17000 health ballpark on a class with like zero mobility.

become a vamp, mist form

Ezareth · May 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Not everyone using dodge roll is an unlimited-resource build spamming the roll over and over. A change like this would hurt my all-heavy armor DK who deals damage with stamina attacks and relies on both blocking and dodge rolling for defense.

Besides i do not see a problem, if someone is specced for infinite dodge rolling then he has sacrificed both damage and hitpoints, and can still die in 2-3 hits if you hit him in between the rolls. Seriously, count how many dodge rolls this guy did, and he still died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9rj0XZJas

I understand your point about some builds not being able to obtain near unlimited doge rolls, but you are kidding yourself if you think all builds that are specced for infinite dodge roll sacrifice damage. I see you posting around alliance war forums and there are vids of Sypher and Benzy having extreme burst DPS combined with unlimited dodge rolling. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm specced for extreme damage, I have 900 stamina recovery with tri pot up on my DK..

900.....

I could probably get more..but then i'm in the 17000 health ballpark on a class with like zero mobility.

You're also a DK and thus do not to max your stamina recovery, but you know this and your general Bias is pretty obvious.

Need I point you to the video where you killed me starting with 1% Stamina (yes including a Bugged meteor).