A Sorc's letter to ZOS

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

Agreed Ezareth, I do think their are many flaws in this game that need to be addressed. Infact I would rather they fix those before addressing any class skills.

I just would rather start discussing potential things now and try and come up with something reasonable over the next few months because we both know how ZOS history of heavy handed nerfs is, and I think the sorc community and smart folks such as yourself could come up with fair solutions without butchering the sorc.

I'd rather get the political games of compromise started sooner rather then later because I dont want to be stuck playing an underpowered class again for months due to heavy handed nerfs and I'm.sure you dont either.

Digiman · April 2015

This is difficult, the reason why BoL is more effective is because of the glaring problems with Sorcerer survivability without shields. Because of this any ability that repels a type of Single Target ranged magickal is far more promising then say an area CC.

Streak was obviously designed to be a melee combat ability while BoL was designed to be a defensive escape for ranged casters.

It's working as intended. Infact BoL is useless against 2handers and you will literally be shredded to pieces if you rely on it to protect.

My point is that right now, single target burst is the best way to kill someone in PvP and nerfing an already ailing class that has to rely on shields and absorbs to survive will make matters worse.

If your a ranged magickal caster and your using streak your not going to use it to its full potential, but if your a tank melee sorcerer you have an ability which will make playing melee more comfortable with a gap closer to stop someone from escaping.

As for BoL, only a sorcerer would have more problems against it then any other class. So asking it to be nerfed because a sorcerer killed your sorcerers is inane. Other classes are designed with abilities and play styles to get by it.

Vis · April 2015

I disagree with sorcs saying they can't kill other sorcs through BOL. I do it all the time. It requires having a diverse number of tools in your build and finding creative ways of using them.

Verdwhisper · April 2015

without bol，sorcs cannot kill each other, thanks for over 25k shield stacking.

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

Vis wrote: »

I disagree with sorcs saying they can't kill other sorcs through BOL. I do it all the time. It requires having a diverse number of tools in your build and finding creative ways of using them.

I can agree with that, its not impossible to kill another BOL Sorc, more difficult maybe, but not impossible. It just may take longer then some other fights, no biggie.

I will say this, its took some getting used to using Streak since i haven't used it for so long, but it is far superior to BOL when faced with a two handed opponent. Streak can be used to interrupt Wrecking Blow, Streak can be used to take the offensive on the two handed user, BOL away from a Crit charger is doing exactly what they want you to do, Streak can be used to win the war of attrition if used correctly. Streak also can not be dodged which makes it nice for finishing off those dodge rollers trying to get away from you. Streak is probably better again two handed users, and nightblades, BOL is better against most DK's and other caster classes.

If they fix Streak back to a Disorient that has to be broken with break free to get CC immunity and slighty up its damage, it will be right in line with BOL. 1.5 secs is such a short duration that giving CC immunity when not using break free is just flat out dumb. Fear lasts for 4 secs, makes you lose control of your toon, and offers no such immunity unless you use Break-free, Streak should be the same way, it don't even last 1.4th as long as fear does.

Regardless, as much fun as i had playing with Streak last night, i have been putting my Archer toon on the back burner for far too long and has been sitting at level 34 in Rivenspire for months. So i am going to focus my attention on leveling that character now, because i have some pretty fun ideas on what i can do with him. I am also a bit burn out on the Sorc caster i have been playing since beta and want to run a different type of set up. Try a diff play style for awhile, just to add some new flavor.

This will also give me time to observe whats going to happen in the weeks coming forward. It will also be a good insurance policy in case they nerf hammer Sorcs into the ground again. This thread was made as more of an attempt at appeasement for the vast majority of people complaining about BOL and Ward. I was hoping to convince a small nerf to BOL would be enough while leaving Ward alone.

Although what i have seen in various zone and guild chats the last few days, I have a very uneasy feeling about Sorc's moving forward. It was part of why i made this thread. I just have a hunch a huge nerf bat swing is coming our way soon. one much larger then we received prior to 1.5. I hope im wrong though.

Anyways, im actually looking forward to the new character im designing, its a build of my own making, i have my own ideas of how i want it to work. it should be fun and has given me some renewed interest in the game.

Anyways gentlemen, continue to rep the Sorc class well. I know many of the top Sorcs have commented on here, and you guys rep the class well! i'll ge tmyself back in Cyrodiil at some point, but i have to force myself to stay away for awhile and get this character built, its something i have wanted to do for a long time, just like i always want to pvp, gotta show some self control lol!

Ezareth · April 2015

Vis wrote: »

I disagree with sorcs saying they can't kill other sorcs through BOL. I do it all the time. It requires having a diverse number of tools in your build and finding creative ways of using them.

The only time I die to another sorc is when they bug BoL and their damage ignores it. It is far more common now in 1.6 with the changes they put in to heavy attacks. Otherwise there is literally nothing a sorc can do to burst through my shields and health. Mages wrath, Velocious Curse, Mana detonation, and streak are just not very bursty even if you time it right. The real issue is a sorc can stack both Dampen Magick and Hardened ward against another sorc.

When that crushing shock goes through my boL and hits my block though.....yeah. BoL really needs fixed not nerfed.

I did die solo to a 2-hander sorc for the first time in 1.6 the other day though so it's possible by going with that broken weapon I suppose.

Septimus_Magna · April 2015

woodsro wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

BOL isnt as OP as reflective scales was, let me explain why.

BOL doenst return damage, it only absorbs magical projectiles, arrows arent affected and it doesnt work 100% of the time.
Even with high magicka regen you cant cast it a lot while fighting, only when escaping so its working as intended.

Scales increased reflected damage (before unlimited for 4s) so a DK could use it to become untouchable by projectiles for the duration and return the inflicted damage, this is a big difference imo.

True but it absorbs projectiles, stuns in a 360 radius around the caster, and teleports its users. Where as Scales returned Damage, BOL gives damage avoidance, hard CC, and change of position all in one skill. So i can see both as sort of equal in "certain situations"

I use BOL all the time and have for a long time, i think the high regen builds and such probably contribute to it more then anything else along with the fact they really nerfed Streak hard.

It absorbs some projectiles, definitely not all like Scales. I often hit sorcs with my cystal frags when they BOL away.
Also arrows dont count as projectiles with BOL but they do count as projectiles with Scales, which is odd.
The BOL stun area is very small, you have to be on someone's toes to stun him basically.

BOL sure is a good skill (which high regen and reduce magicka cost) but not nearly as OP as most people claim. If you use it wrong you're defenseless because its drains so much magicka.

xDonMega · April 2015

I haven't played this game since last July... good to see people still crying about bolt escape..

Tankqull · April 2015

woodsro wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Dear ZOS:

I have played a Sorc since Beta and the Sorc is my main exclusive character and the only character i have that is even Vet rank. I have hundreds of hours on this Sorc.I have been using Ball of Lighting since back in May, so i am not someone who just recently jumped on the bandwagon like every other Sorc has lately.

so, when i posted this Why does ZOS hate Sorcs? this is NOT what i wanted, its not what i wanted at all...

Right now, im shaking my head., My beloved Sorc class, and everyone who is defending certain aspects. No, Hardened Ward is not OP, it needs to stay as is. Ball of Lighting is OP. I have been using this skill for months, I was one of the few in Cyrodiil besides Teargrants, Ezareth, and a few others actually using it. Most folks used Streak. BOL was not OP in 1.5 because for starters you didn't have as much of a magic pool, regen rates, and BOL didn't work half the time.

Now in 1.6, BOL is just as OP Reflective Scales was....because BOL not only absorbs every magic projectile in the game, it also teleports your character. The fact it can be cast so many times now....its too much. The fact it rarely fails anymore is huge. I can count on 1 hand how many times i have been Sharded in the back in the last few weeks with BOL.

This is coming from the the person that made the huge Sorc thread. I am the guy who made that thread Why does ZOS hate Sorcs? that feedback along with others probably played a role in leading to ZOS into removing the 50% mana regen penalty from Bolt Escape

I can be honest with myself, BOL is OP....and Streak is underpowered. I am all about fair and balanced game play. and yes Stamina weapon damage needs to be addressed, infinite dodge rolling needs to be addressed, a lot of things need to be addressed, but BOL is OP. I use it all the time im willing to admit it needs toned down.

Now ZOS you can't nerf the absorbing on Ball of Lighting or their duration or you will make the skill useless. On the flipside, A Streak user is vulnerable from behind and vulnerable to pretty much all damage while Streak, keep this in mind. Streak offers no form of damage mitigation and the damage it does is minuscule.

The best solution to the issue is this:

1. Streak is returned to a disorient that does NOT grant CC immunity unless it is hard CC broken with break free(just like Fear is) Fear users can spam fear over and over til the cows come home and if you don't break free, you get no immunity, Streak should be the same way.
2. Ball of Lighting stays as it is right now, but a 35% mana regen penalty is put on BOL only if cast a 2nd time within 4 secs.

Ball of Lighting counters every magic projectile in the game (which is over half of all the games abilities) in comparison to Streak its too much, it should not have the same cost considering it offers way more defensive utility and ability compared to Streak. Streak users are far more vulnerable and must actually get close to their opponents to actually use Streak to cause damage, in essence are at a mauch larger isk of being killed. BOL is all about staying away from your opponent, which is all fine and dandy, but it should cost more to do so. In other words, that 35% mana regen penalty on BOL if cast twice within 4 secs pays for the superior defensive ability you get for using BOL.

I myself would be glad to have that 35% mana regen penalty on Ball of Lighting I use as i feel that would be fair considering BOL not only teleports me, but also counters a majority of the ranged attacks in the game outside of Bows.

There comes a point where you will defend something till the cows come home, even when its counter productive to do so. I will not hold this position on Ball of Lighting, I have used Ball of Lighting since May or June, somewhere around in their, point is its too much right now. I am all about a Sorc being able to escape, but their comes a point where its too much, and right now its too much.

From this day forward, I am changing my Morph to Streak. Yes, Streak is underpowered, Streak is not as good, Streak will make me easier to kill. I would rather lose with Streak then to win in Ball of Lighting's current form of OP. Yes thats right, I would rather lose using an underpowered ability then to win with an OP one. So i guess i will be easier to kill in Cyrodiil for awhile.

I really hope someone at ZOS take my feedback into consideration, and thank you for making such a fun game.

Sincerely

woodsro

1. the former magica reg reduction was only applied when OUT of combat so it never was a n issue in first place at all(as you as a sorc remain still in combat even when your opponent has died to 3 other peoples since you killed him last time :P) - thus the 1.6 change to it doesent matter at all.
2. beside that i do agree the the spam ability of everything gets more and more out of hand every day thx to the CP system.
3. i don´t think that BoL is actually the culprit but every spell beeing handeled as projectile with all it downsides like block dmg reduction especially when combined with shields passives provided by fortress, defelct bolts and defensive posture etc. reducing blocked spell dmg by 80-90% and effecting to manny attacks by scales or BoL.

Vizier · April 2015

Allow shields to be crit on and burst down and cause BOL to be limited in number of projectiles it absorbs and we might be onto something.

Leave the Hard CC of Streak alone. Being able to basically stop everyone in their tracks without end was simply too ridiculous. At least THAT was fixed. There is a reason almost EVERY Sorc used it. Because it offered more utility that almost any other spell in Cryodiil. Not only do you get positional advantage, you got a neverending AOE Damaging stun that built ultimate. It because both an offensive and defensive masterstroke.

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

Its ok to spam fear endlessly with no CC immunity unless you break free is ok, but Streak not giving immunity unless you break free is unfair?

Gotcha, you play a NB by chance?

Garion · April 2015

You are mad

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

Garion wrote: »

You are mad

Fear OP, lol

if they would fix the time it takes to break out of fear would be nice, it always seems to take 3-4 button presses of break free and atleast 2 seconds before it registers.

Garion · April 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

You are mad

Fear OP, lol

if they would fix the time it takes to break out of fear would be nice, it always seems to take 3-4 button presses of break free and atleast 2 seconds before it registers.

Fear is ridiculously op. But to say BOL is also OP is madness

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

Garion wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

You are mad

Fear OP, lol

if they would fix the time it takes to break out of fear would be nice, it always seems to take 3-4 button presses of break free and atleast 2 seconds before it registers.

Fear is ridiculously op. But to say BOL is also OP is madness

you are right about that, fear really is in a totally different ball park from BOL

Emma_Overload · April 2015

Great! We should take an ALREADY nerfed, gimped and buggy spell and make it EVEN WORSE for PvE so PvP players have one less thing to whine about. As if they wouldn't forget all about it in an hour and start whining about something else!

No, non, nein and nyet! NO WAY, JOSE! BoL barely works half the time anyway... if anything, it should be BUFFED.

.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · April 2015

No More nerfs. On anything. Here's why. There more abilities that are "broken" than are truly OP. If this game was really working as ZOS intended it to, then we could worry about class balance. There really needs to be a priority list when it comes to fixing this game.

Before nerfing/buffing any working abilities, ZOS needs to.

Fix any abilities/set that have a potential to be exploited
Fix all abilities not working as intended
Fix all abilities with incorrect tooltips.

Templar charge is still bugged. Cloak is still bugged. Spell penetration is borked beyond all understanding. There are secrets on top of secrets on how to exploit this or bug out that. Fix that crap first, let the meta settle for a couple of weeks, then worry about class balance. Knee-jerk nerbatting at this point will only cripple classes when the longstanding issues are finally fixed.

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

i disagree that cloak is still bugged, that crap is powerful as hell right now.

Rook_Master · April 2015

As a Magicka Templar, I just don't even bother with the majority of Sorcs that have figured out what OP posted. Combine BoL with Annulment and Hardened, and I just kind of shrug my shoulders and move along.

The problem is that disengaging from a Sorc in the open field as a DK or Templar is impossible. You have to know exactly what you're doing with your defensive rotation, and then gauge how far it is to the nearest friendly resource so that other players or NPCs can assist.

I think what is irritating is that the way Sorcs are currently built, they dictate the terms of the engagement. A lot of people fall for their baiting tactics, and that's what makes people rage so hard on the forums.

The only way to engage these Sorcs is with a Stamina build using a Charge skill, and even then the really skilled Sorcs will get a way 100% of the time if they choose.

Sorcerers have figured out how to get Offense, Defense, and Mobility out of the same build, which definitely is a problem.

Simply nerfing the Sorceror is not really a solution I would like to see implemented, but then, no sorcerors have really offered up viable alternatives.

CP5 · April 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

As a Magicka Templar, I just don't even bother with the majority of Sorcs that have figured out what OP posted. Combine BoL with Annulment and Hardened, and I just kind of shrug my shoulders and move along.

The problem is that disengaging from a Sorc in the open field as a DK or Templar is impossible. You have to know exactly what you're doing with your defensive rotation, and then gauge how far it is to the nearest friendly resource so that other players or NPCs can assist.

I think what is irritating is that the way Sorcs are currently built, they dictate the terms of the engagement. A lot of people fall for their baiting tactics, and that's what makes people rage so hard on the forums.

The only way to engage these Sorcs is with a Stamina build using a Charge skill, and even then the really skilled Sorcs will get a way 100% of the time if they choose.

Sorcerers have figured out how to get Offense, Defense, and Mobility out of the same build, which definitely is a problem.

Simply nerfing the Sorceror is not really a solution I would like to see implemented, but then, no sorcerors have really offered up viable alternatives.

One point I would like to raise, agreeing with the fact that a well played sorcerer can be very hard to kill, is what alternatives does the class even have outside of this small handful of builds?

Rook_Master · April 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

As a Magicka Templar, I just don't even bother with the majority of Sorcs that have figured out what OP posted. Combine BoL with Annulment and Hardened, and I just kind of shrug my shoulders and move along.

The problem is that disengaging from a Sorc in the open field as a DK or Templar is impossible. You have to know exactly what you're doing with your defensive rotation, and then gauge how far it is to the nearest friendly resource so that other players or NPCs can assist.

I think what is irritating is that the way Sorcs are currently built, they dictate the terms of the engagement. A lot of people fall for their baiting tactics, and that's what makes people rage so hard on the forums.

The only way to engage these Sorcs is with a Stamina build using a Charge skill, and even then the really skilled Sorcs will get a way 100% of the time if they choose.

Sorcerers have figured out how to get Offense, Defense, and Mobility out of the same build, which definitely is a problem.

Simply nerfing the Sorceror is not really a solution I would like to see implemented, but then, no sorcerors have really offered up viable alternatives.

One point I would like to raise, agreeing with the fact that a well played sorcerer can be very hard to kill, is what alternatives does the class even have outside of this small handful of builds?

You make a very good point, and honestly, I think the whole pet line could be scrapped for something that would give sorcerors more alternatives, and then it wouldn't be such a devastating impact to change some of their defining abilities, since certain combinations of them lead to them being OP in PvP.

CP5 · April 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

As a Magicka Templar, I just don't even bother with the majority of Sorcs that have figured out what OP posted. Combine BoL with Annulment and Hardened, and I just kind of shrug my shoulders and move along.

The problem is that disengaging from a Sorc in the open field as a DK or Templar is impossible. You have to know exactly what you're doing with your defensive rotation, and then gauge how far it is to the nearest friendly resource so that other players or NPCs can assist.

I think what is irritating is that the way Sorcs are currently built, they dictate the terms of the engagement. A lot of people fall for their baiting tactics, and that's what makes people rage so hard on the forums.

The only way to engage these Sorcs is with a Stamina build using a Charge skill, and even then the really skilled Sorcs will get a way 100% of the time if they choose.

Sorcerers have figured out how to get Offense, Defense, and Mobility out of the same build, which definitely is a problem.

Simply nerfing the Sorceror is not really a solution I would like to see implemented, but then, no sorcerors have really offered up viable alternatives.

One point I would like to raise, agreeing with the fact that a well played sorcerer can be very hard to kill, is what alternatives does the class even have outside of this small handful of builds?

You make a very good point, and honestly, I think the whole pet line could be scrapped for something that would give sorcerors more alternatives, and then it wouldn't be such a devastating impact to change some of their defining abilities, since certain combinations of them lead to them being OP in PvP.

Thats the fun part isn't it? Stuck at the point were a build is either insane at most everything or a joke. This is likely one of the reasons why people get up in arms on both sides since as you said when a sorcerer baits well with the right build they can preform very well and their victims don't realize how restricted the class is. I do hope threads like this continue so that hopefully more class wide decisions can be made so sorcerers can have a choice of build, rather than a choice to be powerful or laughable.

Tonturri · April 2015

Give the ball health based on the sorc's heath. That way, the builds that go hard into magicka will still get a use out of it, but not as much as a sorc tank (of which I've seen precious few

). Giving the ball health depending on the sorc's health would, I think, add a nice build dynamic while at the same time making it less OP.

Also arrows dont count as projectiles with BOL but they do count as projectiles with Scales, which is odd.

I can't check right now, but I think BOL only says it absorbs magicka projectiles, whereas scales is just 'projectiles'.

No, non, nein and nyet! NO WAY, JOSE! BoL barely works half the time anyway... if anything, it should be BUFFED.

I do not know about anyone else, but it seems to be working a lot more often for me (and all the other sorcs I face >.>) than it did before. Heck I had my spells veer off at an almost 90 degree angle when I was trying to toss a medium attack at a fleeing sorc, and I was standing well off to the side of one of their fading BOLs.

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

Tonturri wrote: »

Give the ball health based on the sorc's heath. That way, the builds that go hard into magicka will still get a use out of it, but not as much as a sorc tank (of which I've seen precious few ). Giving the ball health depending on the sorc's health would, I think, add a nice build dynamic while at the same time making it less OP.

Also arrows dont count as projectiles with BOL but they do count as projectiles with Scales, which is odd.

I can't check right now, but I think BOL only says it absorbs magicka projectiles, whereas scales is just 'projectiles'.

No, non, nein and nyet! NO WAY, JOSE! BoL barely works half the time anyway... if anything, it should be BUFFED.

I do not know about anyone else, but it seems to be working a lot more often for me (and all the other sorcs I face >.>) than it did before. Heck I had my spells veer off at an almost 90 degree angle when I was trying to toss a medium attack at a fleeing sorc, and I was standing well off to the side of one of their fading BOLs.

sometimes your attacks go through it, around it, and most the time they do like 180's right into the balls. you do have to be near your ball now since 1.6 for it to be effective unlike before 1.6 where it would just take up everything (when only one ball up, more then one up would bug them out).

bol needs to be more consistent and thats the real issue with it, people using it would know how to defend with it and attackers would know how to shoot around it with magic abilities. right now its hit or miss. sometimes it doesnt work and most the time it does (for me anyway). but there are still those sometimes that leave me and probably my attacker scratching there head going wtf is wrong with this ability lol.