Solution to the Sorc problem

Erock25 · March 2015

technohic wrote: »

I know I said I would side with sorcs since nerf attempts on them nerfed my class but...

Before we address the problem with sorc; we should identify what the problem actually is. They have the best shield as far as cost, duration and scaling on magicka; the best escape; and if on that you decide to leave them alone with how slippery they are, they have the best practical magicka damage when it comes to PvP.

I think it happens to be the fact that they have the best shield in the game as far as duration, scaling with magicka, and cost is an issue, but more toward what the shield does. The amount of hitpoints is not the problem and they should undo the 15% shield reduction in Cyrodiil ASAP. The reason I say that is then, we need to have crits and debuffs either apply to the shield or the caster. I also think things like major fracture or major breech if not being applied to the caster behind the bubble, should be direct additional damage on the shields hit points. So major fracture or breach would do 5120 damage to the shield if it cannot be applied to the armor.

The other 2 things; I think the escape would be relatively less likely if the shield was being more quickly damaged but who knows. Having best damage as a magicka class probably is where a sorc should be.

I'm fine with allowing everything to affect shields as long as blocking will also reduce damage my shield takes as well as all the other benefits of block like no crits, no effects, etc.

technohic · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I know I said I would side with sorcs since nerf attempts on them nerfed my class but...

Before we address the problem with sorc; we should identify what the problem actually is. They have the best shield as far as cost, duration and scaling on magicka; the best escape; and if on that you decide to leave them alone with how slippery they are, they have the best practical magicka damage when it comes to PvP.

I think it happens to be the fact that they have the best shield in the game as far as duration, scaling with magicka, and cost is an issue, but more toward what the shield does. The amount of hitpoints is not the problem and they should undo the 15% shield reduction in Cyrodiil ASAP. The reason I say that is then, we need to have crits and debuffs either apply to the shield or the caster. I also think things like major fracture or major breech if not being applied to the caster behind the bubble, should be direct additional damage on the shields hit points. So major fracture or breach would do 5120 damage to the shield if it cannot be applied to the armor.

The other 2 things; I think the escape would be relatively less likely if the shield was being more quickly damaged but who knows. Having best damage as a magicka class probably is where a sorc should be.

I'm fine with allowing everything to affect shields as long as blocking will also reduce damage my shield takes as well as all the other benefits of block like no crits, no effects, etc.

Sure. Why not.

Philthyorc · March 2015

technohic wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I know I said I would side with sorcs since nerf attempts on them nerfed my class but...

Before we address the problem with sorc; we should identify what the problem actually is. They have the best shield as far as cost, duration and scaling on magicka; the best escape; and if on that you decide to leave them alone with how slippery they are, they have the best practical magicka damage when it comes to PvP.

I think it happens to be the fact that they have the best shield in the game as far as duration, scaling with magicka, and cost is an issue, but more toward what the shield does. The amount of hitpoints is not the problem and they should undo the 15% shield reduction in Cyrodiil ASAP. The reason I say that is then, we need to have crits and debuffs either apply to the shield or the caster. I also think things like major fracture or major breech if not being applied to the caster behind the bubble, should be direct additional damage on the shields hit points. So major fracture or breach would do 5120 damage to the shield if it cannot be applied to the armor.

The other 2 things; I think the escape would be relatively less likely if the shield was being more quickly damaged but who knows. Having best damage as a magicka class probably is where a sorc should be.

I'm fine with allowing everything to affect shields as long as blocking will also reduce damage my shield takes as well as all the other benefits of block like no crits, no effects, etc.

Sure. Why not.

Well than it's been settled, good talk chaps.

Teargrants · March 2015

So much complaining and whining, why is it that all the baddies post threads like this instead of, wait for it, posting threads asking for discussion and ideas to counter the things they feel are too strong/have trouble with? There's a master's thesis to be had in that for sure.

If you have trouble with sorcs, just slot reflect and watch them one shot themselves. That one skill turns all my fights against other sorcs into easy mode.

Makkir · March 2015

Dru1076 · March 2015

Please don't nerf sorcs... After reading all the threads about them, especially the ones where they defend their unequalled ability to just escape a battle, I decided to give them a try. Please don't water them down before I get a chance to try this Jesus Beam everyone is going on about...

Perhaps more of us should start using Sorcs? But that's the danger of having any of the classes stand out I guess... People who want to win will all be the same class in the end.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

Whoohooo another sorc nerf thread. Do you guys just spin the wheel and decide what sorc skill you want nerfed every day?

So my hardened ward is ok now but we are back to nerfing bolt escape? The most nerfed skill in the game?

A good 2H user can stay on me even when I spam bolt escape. Even when I weave dodge rolls into my bolts. And I take 7K damage from their crit charge every time they do that.

Makes me have to actually face them and try to bolt through them instead of just running away.

Learn how to do that and stop making sorc cry threads.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

Psilent wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Whining about bolt escape!? Lol!

BE ports 17m all gap closers have what 22? 24?m range, this is comical.

As for hardened ward, sorcs would be unplayable without it, and its strength is way overstated here. Way overstated. You will be hard pressed to even get two full hits of protection out of it, and any sorc worth his salt spends time constantly refreshing it during combat so he/she doesn't die.

Let me give you an example. I charge and root you. You bolt escape with my roots and disorient me. While I break the disorient you bolt escape again. I cannot reach you with another charge cause I need a target to charge.

This is how it should be. I dont see a problem. This is no different then the DK casts scales, I cast shards, shards comes back and hits me.

This boils down to folks whining because someone gets away. Two classes in this game were given clear ways to ESCAPE. One of them actually has the word in its skill name. This game was designed with escaping being integral to two classes (sorc and nb) BE is not a granted escape and neither is cloak. Cloak in the hands of someone such as sypher allows him to get out of situations other can't.

Bottom line is folks need to get used to it and quit whining about someone running and go fight someone else, as a sorc myself, I wont chase another.

Escaping, running away is a valid strategy. This is not an arena where one man enters and one man.leaves. Disengaging combat is a valid strategy. Those who chase BE sorcs know we are preying on human.tendencies of impulsiveness
and irrational behavior. This has decades of psychological study behind it. Marketers have used this for years, 8 out of 10 purchases are impulse buys, in the right presentation, most folks can't help themselves.

That's why its so easy as a sorc to dangle as that bait just out of reach.

So dont take the bait, the most annoying thing you can do to a sorc is ignore him and continue to move away from him.

Feigning disinterest is one of the most powerful tactics that can be used against a sorc.

One of the longest and most volatile hate tells I have ever gotten in this game was from a Sorceror that I stopped chasing.

I started to chase at Arrius Keep and when we got about halfway to Kingscrest Farm I realized I was going to run out of stamina and die, so I concluded the only logical course of action was to disengage and head back to Arrius. I let him bolt ahead of me twice and then I popped maneuvers and ran back to Arrius.

He did not like that; he chased me all the way back and bolted right into a group of three stealthed EP and was slaughtered.

The tells I got were the best. "Who runs from a 1v1?" "You're the worst player I have ever faced!" "I am a vampire! You could have killed me with your flame attacks!" "Noob who needs others to kill one player." "Just stop playing this game, you noob". Add in a lot of profanity too and that's about sums up his QQ.

LOL. Lol like you discovered the best counter to bolt escape yet. Let them run away. They will be back, when they come back. Have a snipe sandwich waiting.

k2blader · March 2015

No to nerfing BE further.

Play a sorc up through some vet levels then re-contemplate that suggestion.

The perception that sorcs can always get away is ridiculous. That's like saying you never get any sorc kills which I'm sure is untrue.

Don't call for nerfs to an entire class because you're mad about not "winning" all the time. Grow up.

Gorthax · April 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Leave everything they have available to them alone.

Except for bolt escape. The distance traveled with blot escape needs to be halved or maybe just quartered.

That would bring Sorcs back within the realm of balance.

Currently they are the ONLY ones that can survive everything because they can just show their "get out of jail free" card and be gone. NBs can vanish but that is negated by merely drinking a potion. DKs can be DKs. Templars can heal. But all die in battle except Sorcs.

ROFL LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you serious right now? The distance ONE bolt/ball of lightning gives you is 5 times(over exagerated but its more like 2-3 times less) LESS than the range on crit charge, bows, shield charge, etc. please move on to a different game or just stop chasing sorcs.

the tool tip on bolt escape doesnt tell you how far you travel for it, but its definitely way shorter then the distance of every charge in the game to where it takes more then 2 casts if you bolt from where there standing to get away. and the lock down root/silence you get from people charging makes it so its even harder to get away. most the time you have to bolt roll dodge at the same time on the second bolt just to make it so they cannot target you. if sorcs are getting away its because they know how to use terrain like rocks to break los and know when to dodge roll to get you off there ass.

NO I get that @cozmon3c_ESO I main a sorc since launch

but you pretty much just repeated what I said in more detail

so kudos ^_^ BE has had the WORST nerf out of any skill then shield charge and crit charge got buffs to their range and BE was never adjusted again. It's kind of sad tbh. I get maybe 3 dodge rolls before I am out of stamina. Once that happens gg for me because they are still charging me. I think all the baddies just don't know not to chase a sorc unless you for sure have the upper hand.

TheLaw · April 2015

This is a depressingly terrible post.

Suhxtob-yu · April 2015

You deniers are so delusional. It reminds me of how vigorously DKs used to defend how OP their class was.

But anyways, I am not getting into a huge argument. I made a reasonable suggestion and people want to just attack me personally so at this point I am done with this conversation.

For the record, I am not under any delusion that I am the greatest ever. Actually, as a stamina build templar, I am rather not good because I go against the grain and therefor do not have an easy build at all. Also, bare in mind that I think Sorcs ARE balanced with the exception of this one ability that combined with all the rest of their greatness is what puts them in a league of thier own.

Cinbri · April 2015

Again, thread where sorcs zealously defending OP without any even simple logical evidence, and once again they famous quote "l2p". Sorcs spamming l2p is already key feature of this forum. @Suhxtob-yu don't need to create thread about sorcs - such threads will be overrun by million sorcs since everyone already rerolled into it to play easy mode, who will spam Agree button on themselves. Thread can be closed.

vichoi · April 2015

Kas wrote: »

First of all, i don't get why having hardened ward up protects against knockback from destructive reach and the stun from 1h/s reflect.

Next, while BoL isn't even totally OP, it is one of the most fun ruining abilities in the game. I know that you can counter it. However, if you do not specifically slot a charge for that (better don't try the buggy templar one), you are incredibly helpless against such sorcs. I don't think you can ignore them either. They can just come and go and pick on you until you make a mistake or other players show up and make the matchup favor the sorc.

Personally, I find these two things MUCH more annoying than distance traveled by blink and the total amount of shielded HP. On top of that, I think these issues could be resolved particularly well without having sorcs go from godliek to underpowered too quickly (liek they would if shields would become less powerful than offensive spells liek some demand)

(okay, not sure what to do with BoL but the other morph is still a great spell and much less frustrating to play around so I don't think nerfing it would break sorcs)

I played my Templar about 100 times as lnog as I played my sorc. I didn't even equip my sorc properly for 1.6, yet. However, I'm more effective going solo as sorc as I am on my templar right now. inb4 someone who cannot even interrupt complains about RD.

What's the problem with slot a charge skill to counter sorc?
We slot inner light to counter NB cloak, use shield to counter DK reflect, are you going to complaint everything need only "one" slot to counter?

Septimus_Magna · April 2015

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Leave everything they have available to them alone.

Except for bolt escape. The distance traveled with blot escape needs to be halved or maybe just quartered.

That would bring Sorcs back within the realm of balance.

Currently they are the ONLY ones that can survive everything because they can just show their "get out of jail free" card and be gone. NBs can vanish but that is negated by merely drinking a potion. DKs can be DKs. Templars can heal. But all die in battle except Sorcs.

Its a skill designed to escape and you want to make it useless to escape? You dont win battles by running away so whats the balance issue exactly? I see DKs and Templars mitigating attacks from 10 players at once but running away is OP?

All NBs, two-handed and S&B users have GAP CLOSERS which have more range than the Bolt Escape distance. Do you really think it will bring balance to the classes if you need to blink 3x-5x to outrun a single gap closer?

monkeymystic · April 2015

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

Ezareth · April 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

Kind of like the scaling that a Stamina user sees doing more damage with stamina abilities and being able to evade damage with dodge roll more often?

Highly OP? No. It's called Min/maxing and not making this game a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo.

Digiman · April 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Let me give you an example. I charge and root you. You bolt escape with my roots and disorient me. While I break the disorient you bolt escape again. I cannot reach you with another charge cause I need a target to charge.

You don't use roots on BE, you snare them. YOU ALSO DON'T BREAK OUT OF THE 1.5 SECOND STUN EITHER. It's a waste of resources and sorcerers get happy when you do break it.

You want to beat a BE escaping sorcerer? Force them to use BE within 4 secs. It will burn their resources faster for a quick take down. No magicka means no BE, shields or healing ward.

Snit · April 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

So much complaining and whining, why is it that all the baddies post threads like this instead of, wait for it, posting threads asking for discussion and ideas to counter the things they feel are too strong/have trouble with? There's a master's thesis to be had in that for sure.

If you have trouble with sorcs, just slot reflect and watch them one shot themselves. That one skill turns all my fights against other sorcs into easy mode.

Posting is easier than adjusting your build to load things like gap closers, reflects or crowd control.

Teargrants · April 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

You've been claiming that hardened ward gives a 20k shield. You would need 60k magicka to get that. The only thing that needs nerfing is your hyperbole and misinformation.

TheBonesXXX · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

Kind of like the scaling that a Stamina user sees doing more damage with stamina abilities and being able to evade damage with dodge roll more often?

Highly OP? No. It's called Min/maxing and not making this game a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo.

So whats the difference between a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo then a cookie cutter bowl of poo?

Delusions of grandeur on this thread. Anyone who wants to chase a sorc with a 2h is wasting their time because most people are running infinite resource builds and try to pass it off as "skill" when the mathematical algorithms and coding is doing to the work for ya.

No different then infinite dodgeroll, the game is doing most of the work because of the way the math is coded into the game.

Resources are easy to keep up, therefore useful skill spam a cake walk. It's really not that hard with 1.6, people like to bs themselves with some smoke and mirrors thinking they did most of the legwork.

'Cause if it were different, it wouldn't be so prevalent and effective. More people are catching onto the dodgeroll and bubble+bolt away routine and it's already effin old.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2015

i shall repeat upon myself

the easiest solution to the sorc problem is to stop whining about it

play the $%@$ game, Get better at the %$#@ game

Glurin · April 2015

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

You deniers are so delusional. It reminds me of how vigorously DKs used to defend how OP their class was.

OP DKs slaughtered their enemies. BE Sorcerers scream like little girls and run for the hills.

See the difference?

Ezareth · April 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

Kind of like the scaling that a Stamina user sees doing more damage with stamina abilities and being able to evade damage with dodge roll more often?

Highly OP? No. It's called Min/maxing and not making this game a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo.

So whats the difference between a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo then a cookie cutter bowl of poo?

Delusions of grandeur on this thread. Anyone who wants to chase a sorc with a 2h is wasting their time because most people are running infinite resource builds and try to pass it off as "skill" when the mathematical algorithms and coding is doing to the work for ya.

No different then infinite dodgeroll, the game is doing most of the work because of the way the math is coded into the game.

Resources are easy to keep up, therefore useful skill spam a cake walk. It's really not that hard with 1.6, people like to bs themselves with some smoke and mirrors thinking they did most of the legwork.

'Cause if it were different, it wouldn't be so prevalent and effective. More people are catching onto the dodgeroll and bubble+bolt away routine and it's already effin old.

The difference is I cut the cookies.

Chasing a sorc with a 2 hander is very effective. 80% of my many deaths tonight came at the hands of wrecking blow.

Septimus_Magna · April 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

Hardened ward needs a nerf as well, and put in line with other shields in the game.

Right now its simply too high absorb that scales with the same dmg stat (so they deal more and AND take more dmg at the same time, which is highly OP)

Kind of like the scaling that a Stamina user sees doing more damage with stamina abilities and being able to evade damage with dodge roll more often?

Highly OP? No. It's called Min/maxing and not making this game a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo.

So whats the difference between a homogeneous hybrid bowl of poo then a cookie cutter bowl of poo?

Delusions of grandeur on this thread. Anyone who wants to chase a sorc with a 2h is wasting their time because most people are running infinite resource builds and try to pass it off as "skill" when the mathematical algorithms and coding is doing to the work for ya.

No different then infinite dodgeroll, the game is doing most of the work because of the way the math is coded into the game.

Resources are easy to keep up, therefore useful skill spam a cake walk. It's really not that hard with 1.6, people like to bs themselves with some smoke and mirrors thinking they did most of the legwork.

'Cause if it were different, it wouldn't be so prevalent and effective. More people are catching onto the dodgeroll and bubble+bolt away routine and it's already effin old.

Any decent two-handed stamina build should be able to defeat a running sorc without any problems. Critical Rush has more distance than Bolt Escape so you can charge in time after time if the sorcs keeps blinking away. Hardened Ward is the only shied against physical attacks so that should be gone in no time. The biggest problem for most sorcs is stamina sustain, if you're out of stamina you cant block, roll dodge and break-free which means no opportunity to cast shield equals to death.

Solution to getting defeated: Learn to Play, any class can be strong if you build it right, know how to play it and know how to counter other classes.

Zsymon · April 2015

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Or better yet, leave BE as is and credit the opponent with victory AP when a sorc blinks a certain distance away from the fight. That way everyone wins. Sorcs can keep up their blinking ways and people will get rewarded for their choice to flee from the battle.

I think this is a good idea, but apply it to everyone and not just sorcs: If you run from a fight, your opponents gets victory AP.

Kypho · April 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Leave everything they have available to them alone.

Except for bolt escape. The distance traveled with blot escape needs to be halved or maybe just quartered.

That would bring Sorcs back within the realm of balance.

Currently they are the ONLY ones that can survive everything because they can just show their "get out of jail free" card and be gone. NBs can vanish but that is negated by merely drinking a potion. DKs can be DKs. Templars can heal. But all die in battle except Sorcs.

ROFL LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you serious right now? The distance ONE bolt/ball of lightning gives you is 5 times(over exagerated but its more like 2-3 times less) LESS than the range on crit charge, bows, shield charge, etc. please move on to a different game or just stop chasing sorcs.

UMMM LIEEEES! so simple

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

Kypho wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Leave everything they have available to them alone.

Except for bolt escape. The distance traveled with blot escape needs to be halved or maybe just quartered.

That would bring Sorcs back within the realm of balance.

Currently they are the ONLY ones that can survive everything because they can just show their "get out of jail free" card and be gone. NBs can vanish but that is negated by merely drinking a potion. DKs can be DKs. Templars can heal. But all die in battle except Sorcs.

ROFL LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you serious right now? The distance ONE bolt/ball of lightning gives you is 5 times(over exagerated but its more like 2-3 times less) LESS than the range on crit charge, bows, shield charge, etc. please move on to a different game or just stop chasing sorcs.

UMMM LIEEEES! so simple

dude just stop, you dont even know what you are doing in game if you cannot kill a sorc.

-burst
-out sustain
-attack there pathetic stamina pool (cc them whenever they can be)

you know the basics for winning every fight. if you cant do one of these things effectively you will lose.
i build my character to try and attack all three of these at once, burst works on dps, out sustain works on tanks, and cc whenever i have frag up unless im trying to burst kill you then i use it whenever its instant cast.

best combo to use against magicka sorcs is to burst them and cc them. its very effective and i win most fights against sorcs (even with ball of lightening).

Ezareth · April 2015

Zsymon wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Or better yet, leave BE as is and credit the opponent with victory AP when a sorc blinks a certain distance away from the fight. That way everyone wins. Sorcs can keep up their blinking ways and people will get rewarded for their choice to flee from the battle.

I think this is a good idea, but apply it to everyone and not just sorcs: If you run from a fight, your opponents gets victory AP.

Yeah because no one would ever exploit that mechanic....

I can see it now, raids of AP farmers running away from each other.

Here's a question for you. How is it possible to determine who ran from the fight? What if the person is running a scroll? Does the person who gets the "Victory AP" have to stand in place until it is awarded to him? What if that person is a night blade in stealth who was losing while the other person is just running around trying to find the person who just escaped from him.

Maybe it isn't such a good idea afterall...