The Champion system in my mind will ultimately kill ESO

Dekkameron · March 2015

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

I don't pvp that much in ESO, but when i do i like to know i have the best of everything that money or grinding or running dungeons that provide, i hate to have a measurable disadvantage over another player.
Someone beating me because they have a build that beats mine is fine i can deal with that.

But this isnt all about pvp.. How long will it be before people start only taking people into trials etc if they have so many CPs in the "right" places?

I fear for the worst i really do, the effects hardly show at the moment. but wait until maybe 6 months to a year down the line...

When i first played, I was one of those people that once i got to level 50 and defeated Molag Bal i thought ""right! thats that done! now lets pvp!" then the goalposts constantly changed, moving further and further away.
I eventually leveled to VR14 after a stupid amount of grinding.. but when i did i find the goalposts now have have moved again.. to about 3 years away....

I know what i am saying is convoluted, but i felt i needed to get something off my chest..

I like games that have a set finish line so i get to that point then feel like i can compete (at least in gear and using skill) with another person.

I know it sounds weird....

Anyway....

Vulix · March 2015

Unfortunately the people who matter don't seem to care

Gidorick · March 2015

Why does there have to be a "finish line"? What is your incentive to play once you get to that finish line?

Dekkameron · March 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Why does there have to be a "finish line"? What is your incentive to play once you get to that finish line?

Well.. maybe finish line was a bad term to use.. But i meant like a max level. The champion system makes the max level somewhat moot.

Maybe it is just me, but i generally only pvp once i feel i am fully equipped to take on whatever is thrown at me, relying on skill and gear and my nuild.. without getting pwned because someone else uber grinded CP and now is running around with essentially emperor stats compared to me.

Xantaria · March 2015

How is anybody going to get an advantage over you when the championsystem leveling is so slow that people barely finish their enlightenment bonus ...

You just believe others are getting it faster and getting an advantage which they don't.

So keep calm and play.

Biggest bonus is at 90 points and then another small peak at 120. Reachable for any player! Everything on top of that will take years (and also isn't that important).

Dekkameron · March 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

How is anybody going to get an advantage over you when the championsystem leveling is so slow that people barely finish their enlightenment bonus ...

You just believe others are getting it faster and getting an advantage which they don't.

So keep calm and play.

Perhaps i am worrying too much about it at the moment, but mark my words down the line a form of elitism will emerge with people only asking for playing with certain CP bonus passives unlocked.

I like playing everything when i know its a level battlefield (or at least when i am at the top of such a level :P)

When they remove VR ranks entirely and make Cadwells silver/gold just a thing to grind CP if people want i thin i would be happier also, as i have a crap ton of alts loitering at that level.

Khaldar · March 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

I don't pvp that much in ESO, but when i do i like to know i have the best of everything that money or grinding or running dungeons that provide, i hate to have a measurable disadvantage over another player.
Someone beating me because they have a build that beats mine is fine i can deal with that.

But this isnt all about pvp.. How long will it be before people start only taking people into trials etc if they have so many CPs in the "right" places?

I fear for the worst i really do, the effects hardly show at the moment. but wait until maybe 6 months to a year down the line...

When i first played, I was one of those people that once i got to level 50 and defeated Molag Bal i thought ""right! thats that done! now lets pvp!" then the goalposts constantly changed, moving further and further away.
I eventually leveled to VR14 after a stupid amount of grinding.. but when i did i find the goalposts now have have moved again.. to about 3 years away....

I know what i am saying is convoluted, but i felt i needed to get something off my chest..

I like games that have a set finish line so i get to that point then feel like i can compete (at least in gear and using skill) with another person.

I know it sounds weird....

Anyway....

Furthermore... Think about people who left and decide they want to comeback to the game. If they are interested in endgame or PvP, they will be so far behind in CP (if people start gating their trials on them) that they won't last long.

Darlantan · March 2015

So in other words... You want people to keep playing a mmo that does not change overtime by increasing the maximum lvl can reach, dungeon with better gear, new perk, etc?

Sorry, what is the point of playing if the game does not change?

If people want a static game, single player rpg are there for that.

Craven_Killmore · March 2015

It's just a titanium reinforced wall to grind, after you grinded the solid concrete wall that is vrs, the problem was the vr14s had nothing left to do, literally so they asked for another wall, and here it is, the wall of all walls, problem solved, or was it.

Nightscar · March 2015

Darlantan wrote: »

So in other words... You want people to keep playing a mmo that does not change overtime by increasing the maximum lvl can reach, dungeon with better gear, new perk, etc?

Sorry, what is the point of playing if the game does not change?

If people want a static game, single player rpg are there for that.

I understand what the OP is saying but I do agree with you .. Mmo's are about time sinks plain and simple
I mean look at wow for an example .. Lv 100 say your a new player and don't want to spend 60 bucks to max to 90..
You have to lv all the way up.. Then get the gear and have the "right" gear score or people won't want you.. Which getting there involes time..
Same with ESO and the champ system..
Personally I'm a casual player and don't really PvP so this won't really effect me for a time.. If at all.
However..
I like the thought of a semi no lv cap and believe all mmo's should be like this.
As far as the PvP crowd goes.. To make them happy they would have to make some kinda cap so everyone is on a equal playing field. But I'm sure most will disagree .. Why put in the long hr's and hard work just to be capped.

No matter what mmo you play man there is always gonna be those that have more time and resources to plop down then you.
Best to just enjoy the time in game and if it bothers you to to much... The landscapes of mmo's is vast and wide

phairdon · March 2015

You already see this behaviour in other games, based around builds. Then again, there will always be players catching up for various reasons, like being new to the game or a casual player.
I've only obtained 8 extra champion points since patch, on top of the allocation of 70. No doubt there are players with 200 by now. For me, it's not a race.

Cogo · March 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

Nope!
It's the other way around.

The Champion system, like AA in Everquest, is one of the few long term (Longer then 2-3 years progress) that lets you progress without adding levels and trivilize content to fast.

This is a very complex formula to do, but EQ proved how you do it right and Diablo Paragon how to do it wrong.

Champion system is not a new content that every players needs to see all of or get all of. It runs along side with old - current and new content without overpower chars one way or the other.

Champion system if anything, is well designed for several future new zones, skills, system and encounters.

It's also a very robust system where most players never will get most points and players gets to choose "their power".

The Champ system and how well done it is, is THE proof we got that ESO roadmap still exists after consoles.

Cogo · March 2015

phairdon wrote: »

You already see this behaviour in other games, based around builds. Then again, there will always be players catching up for various reasons, like being new to the game or a casual player.
I've only obtained 8 extra champion points since patch, on top of the allocation of 70. No doubt there are players with 200 by now. For me, it's not a race.

And players who grind like hell to get 200. or even 400!!! They wount be playing when you pop around 100...without evening knowing it. You had fun doing...whatever and ooh. Champion points! Cool!

Look at every player who grinded 1-50 and Vet 1- vet 12/vet14.

How many of those really plays or enjoys playing?

I dont get it. I play to have fun!

Disappearingone · March 2015

Nonsense. The gains are tiny, and granted they will add up over time and I'm sure there will be a few Elitist guilds that "Require"(Other players can not see your CP rank. Thus, there is no way to enforce such a rule.) you to be at a certain Champion Point amount, but so long as any new PVE content is designed to where a group of non CP VR14 can complete it then I don't see the problem.

The passives...some are good, some are OK, some are total fluff (Mount stamina drain, double node harvest ect.) but only one or two are Great, although none are a must have. and If you need them well its time to go back to the drawing board and think about your build, cuz it aint working. When you need that 20% chance of a small heal from Invigorating Bash or even one the better ones like the 12% crit from Perfect Strike/Spell Precision or even one of the great ones like Unchained and Foresight then you are relying on the the wrong things to make a build work. These will make you more powerful for sure but you got by all this time with out that 12%crit, is it gonna break you now?

Will CP make content easier? Yes, but not trivial. And I highly doubt CP ever be a requirement to run Trails ect. All you people who don't the like CP system for whatever reason, be it: "New Players will be so far behind they won't ever be able to run things/catch up" and "People will impose requirements on how much you must have and where they are spent" Are just Pessimist or are upset that they will need to grind a whole lot to feel like they are top tier.

As far as PVP goes...I have seen scaled players beat VR14s, and more then that the PVP is not geared toward 1v1 anyway...Never has been, as evident by the lack of any form of dueling.

Personally, I needed something to work toward that makes my Character tougher, even if it is in .2% increments at a time.

I am gonna play the game as I have been, and pluck away at those small points of a percent, and when I unlock passives I'll be glad of the reward. I won't sap all the fun out of a game that I've been enjoying by obsessing over how much more powerful I'll be when I have 12% more armor and 12% more stamina then the fresh VRmaxs

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · March 2015

I much prefer a game where you can always improve your characters in some way, which is NOT gear treadmill.

In this game you can get good gear fast and then be done with it and then go on to improve yourself and your characters for like forever.

It is perfect and at last a mmo the leave the wow dogma, which has infested our hobby for way to many years.

phairdon · March 2015

Cogo wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

You already see this behaviour in other games, based around builds. Then again, there will always be players catching up for various reasons, like being new to the game or a casual player.
I've only obtained 8 extra champion points since patch, on top of the allocation of 70. No doubt there are players with 200 by now. For me, it's not a race.

And players who grind like hell to get 200. or even 400!!! They wount be playing when you pop around 100...without evening knowing it. You had fun doing...whatever and ooh. Champion points! Cool!

Look at every player who grinded 1-50 and Vet 1- vet 12/vet14.

How many of those really plays or enjoys playing?

I dont get it. I play to have fun!

Me too. Why waste time playing a game if there is no enjoyment involved. Flip side to rushing through the champion point system is; the said players may find it impossible to find groups because others are so far behind, and/or their builds become so powerful they no longer need groups to do anything. Must state my intent is not to criticize these players, as everyone has the right to play the game how they see fit.

Jando · March 2015

I agree with the OP. I absolutely hate this never-ending grind fest they've given us.

Creates too much player separation, and is 10 times worse than veteran ranks ever were. Champion System was to replace the horrible veteran grind..and now we have this?

firstdecan · March 2015

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I absolutely hate this never-ending grind fest they've given us.

Creates too much player separation, and is 10 times worse than veteran ranks ever were. Champion System was to replace the horrible veteran grind..and now we have this?

I agree with both you and the OP, but only because of the affects on PvP. Much like the OP, if I'm going to lose in PvP I want to lose to a better player, not someone who has "grinded" points that give him an artificial advantage.

For PvE, I'm not bothered by CP in the least. It gives people who need that constant reward something to shoot for. I expect there will be some "elitism" in vet DSA and trials where hard core groups will only pick up pugs with a minimum number of CPs, but even without the CPs those hardcore groups will have some benchmark to exclude people who aren't "hardcore." It's just in their nature, they will have their methods for staying at the top of the leaderboards and will only want to group with others who can keep them at the top.

Outside of PvP, the CP system is a "nice to have" that makes an already easy PvE experience even easier. Grinding it out will help a few elitists shave some time off their trial runs, but other than that there's no real need for it in PvE. It'll frustrate anyone in PvP that wants to compete on a relatively equal footing with other players (key word, relatively).

Vizier · March 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why does there have to be a "finish line"? What is your incentive to play once you get to that finish line?

Well.. maybe finish line was a bad term to use.. But i meant like a max level. The champion system makes the max level somewhat moot.

Maybe it is just me, but i generally only pvp once i feel i am fully equipped to take on whatever is thrown at me, relying on skill and gear and my nuild.. without getting pwned because someone else uber grinded CP and now is running around with essentially emperor stats compared to me.

It's a process of Gamification. Simply put, it's a system that takes advantage of our natural competitive nature and desire to "complete" and stretches out the process or treadmill. It's only one aspect of Gamification which is a bit more broad and the term is typically applied to out of game context but now always.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification

I point it out because, it's a game. We are going to see the principle applied here. shrug.

Etaniel · March 2015

Cogo wrote: »

And players who grind like hell to get 200. or even 400!!! They wount be playing when you pop around 100...without evening knowing it. You had fun doing...whatever and ooh. Champion points! Cool!

Look at every player who grinded 1-50 and Vet 1- vet 12/vet14.

How many of those really plays or enjoys playing?

I dont get it. I play to have fun!

This made me laugh, what makes you think there is no enjoyment envolved for people who rushed to v14? and for those who'll rush to 3600 cp? I got to v14 3 days after the patch that increased the lvl cap. I'm still here after all this time and having fun in PvP (well, not since 1.6). We all play to have fun. And when the grinders get to 400-500 points, they will still be here, and people will complain that the gap is too big and they can't compete, but don't worry, the grinders will stay

TehMagnus · March 2015

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149933/why-champion-system-will-kill-the-game-if-its-implemented-as-is

I did a post about this when the CS hit the PTS, was discussed, nobody listened, and the moderators sunk the post without any warning. Now if you post in it, it won't bring it to the top of the forum because I guess they don't want to see these kind of messages when they listen & read what we say.

Grapdjan · March 2015

Darlantan wrote: »

So in other words... You want people to keep playing a mmo that does not change overtime by increasing the maximum lvl can reach, dungeon with better gear, new perk, etc?

Sorry, what is the point of playing if the game does not change?

If people want a static game, single player rpg are there for that.

That's sort of what we have right now.

Lunshea · March 2015

Cogo wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

Nope!
It's the other way around.

The Champion system, like AA in Everquest, is one of the few long term (Longer then 2-3 years progress) that lets you progress without adding levels and trivilize content to fast.

This is a very complex formula to do, but EQ proved how you do it right and Diablo Paragon how to do it wrong.

I don't know much about EQ1, but imo, at least the EQ2 AA system is just so superior to ESO CPs, and you level them almost from the start (EQ lvl 51, EQ2 lvl 10). In EQ2. you can also (as subscriber) adjust how much of your XP to use on adventure levels vs alternate advancement points at all times. Also, AA can change your class spec totally, like talent could do in f.i. vanilla WoW. In EQ2, maxing out your AA can be done in a reasonable time, it's not an neverending "grind". To me, the ESO CP feels more like Diablo Paragons than EQ2 AA. I agree that Diablo paragons might not be the best way to implement such a system, but for that ARPG kind of game, and considered most people are playing in seasons and always start at scratch at some time, it works way better than ESO CP's will do for a mmo with no server resets.

Even though CPs don't mean THAT much; for a typical min/max'er (and there are a lot of min/max'ers!) taking a 6 month break from ESO to play other games, it will be a huge turnoff to know that you probably never will be able to catch up 100% again and be fully competetive. I think that the current ESO CP design will make game jumpers choose to skip their ESO jumps...and imo this gamer group is a huge part of the market

I like ESO, I think ESO CPs are better than no CPs; but disagree with the current design - and partly agree with the OP that it will, if not kill, have an negative effect on the potential player base.

amneziac · March 2015

CPs are relatively inconsequential...what could kill the game is the lack of new content. At least from a PVE perspective. I'd be fine grinding or working on CPs at any kind of a pace if it was at least doing something new.

nimander99 · March 2015

Just play the game... sometimes you will win sometimes you will lose, saying the champ system kills pvp is like saying the level system kills pvp, should a level 1 be able to kill a vr14? I think not nor should you be discouraged that you can't.

It's all progression and time and some skill. If you are having fun then do what you enjoy, pvp isn't a solo enterprise. Group up guild up and romp around otherwise enjoy the other aspects of the game.

Varicite · March 2015

Disappearingone wrote: »

Nonsense. The gains are tiny, and granted they will add up over time and I'm sure there will be a few Elitist guilds that "Require"(Other players can not see your CP rank. Thus, there is no way to enforce such a rule.) you to be at a certain Champion Point amount, but so long as any new PVE content is designed to where a group of non CP VR14 can complete it then I don't see the problem.

....

And I highly doubt CP ever be a requirement to run Trails ect. All you people who don't the like CP system for whatever reason, be it: "New Players will be so far behind they won't ever be able to run things/catch up" and "People will impose requirements on how much you must have and where they are spent" Are just Pessimist or are upset that they will need to grind a whole lot to feel like they are top tier.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to imagine a world where people won't take you as a pug because your dps is lower than their requirement. Have you not played many games w/ endgame raiding activities?

Your CP total directly translates into higher DPS. The difference between 70cp and 3600cp is in the neighborhood of 8k dps. That's noticeable. That's very easy to single out.

"LF2M DPS HM Trials, 18k DPS min". You've seriously never seen anybody say anything like this in chat before?

It doesn't really matter that the content CAN be completed w/ less dps, because it can be completed FASTER w/ higher dps. And unfortunately, the only metric the game goes by when gauging how well you did is how FAST you completed it.

Have seen this exact same thing happen in other MMOs (and they didn't even have timed trials). People are lazy and don't want to work. If they have a pool of players that can pull 20k+ DPS, you better believe nobody is going to want your "amazing" 9k DPS.

If you have good friends that you run w/, this is obviously not as much of a problem. If not, people won't see it as "This guy has enough DPS to complete the fights". They're going to see it as "This guy does less DPS than a Sorc pet, lololol."

In a scenario when most players have a ton of CP spent already, it is absolutely not far-fetched to believe that the majority of the player base will be held to a certain (often arbitrary) standard when it comes to DPS, durability, etc.

olsborg · March 2015

I agree with the OP, with the full power of my paid subscription....

Ballzy321 · March 2015

I think take champion system out of pvp completely. I feel the imbalance it will cause is the reason people hate on it. Pve players would be happy and give pvp maybe some small 10 v 10 maps. I'm just spitballing but pvp set up the way it is now is setting up for failure in a few months. With the cp system.

BBSooner · March 2015

Cogo wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

Nope!
It's the other way around.

The Champion system, like AA in Everquest, is one of the few long term (Longer then 2-3 years progress) that lets you progress without adding levels and trivilize content to fast.

This is a very complex formula to do, but EQ proved how you do it right and Diablo Paragon how to do it wrong.

Champion system is not a new content that every players needs to see all of or get all of. It runs along side with old - current and new content without overpower chars one way or the other.

Champion system if anything, is well designed for several future new zones, skills, system and encounters.

It's also a very robust system where most players never will get most points and players gets to choose "their power".

The Champ system and how well done it is, is THE proof we got that ESO roadmap still exists after consoles.

Completely agree. Once the leveling rate finds its sweet spot and diminishing returns begin to make each extra point a .1% increase in effectiveness I think the doomsday cane-waving will hopefully stop. As for reaching an "ending/cap/finish line/etc", MMOs change and the entire premise for the genre is to not have an ending.

BigM · March 2015

Same *** different game! To me every game has these same threads and it makes me laugh because the one's that make these threads are never looking at the world around them just how fast they can get to end and then complain the game sucks. So sick of these people and also the people that used bots to get there and make money but once the company bans these people all hell breaks out in threads like this.

ESO is a great game if you take the time to actually play it and not rush to end like some crazy person. Well that is my opinion anyway but am not really far off.

OK go for it prove me wrong, I can take it!

ZRage · March 2015

TBH, if the advantage is huge and gap cannot be closed i'd agree

but...

On the other hand I don't understand CASUALS need to be the best, have everything while playing the game a hour per day.

From my perspective I came back to the game after like half year break, I went into CYRO, and Indeed even w/o champion systems obviously a lot people had a ton of advantage, new gear mechanic changes and so on. But in same time the satisfaction from ganking / killing such players with weaker character is way bigger. Got around 100 hours played on my new character now and I'm doing pretty fine in cyrodil with enough time spent I could get to top of leaderboards so it's doable to close the gap. I don't think CP will change it for worse, probably they will buff it for the new players someday.