The Champion system in my mind will ultimately kill ESO

Dekkameron

BigM wrote: »

Same *** different game! To me every game has these same threads and it makes me laugh because the one's that make these threads are never looking at the world around them just how fast they can get to end and then complain the game sucks. So sick of these people and also the people that used bots to get there and make money but once the company bans these people all hell breaks out in threads like this.

ESO is a great game if you take the time to actually play it and not rush to end like some crazy person. Well that is my opinion anyway but am not really far off.

OK go for it prove me wrong, I can take it!

Woah!

Ok.. Rushing to the end game? I got my first VR14 a week before 1.6 happened.... So i'm probably one of the slowest levellers out there. and er.. i didn't use bots for my snail-like paced grind either... As for money.. i think i have about 20K... Woohoo!

I think it is not me who is the crazy person here.

My concern was that in the future people will find themselves outmatched by others that have far more Champion points and the possibility of players being gated on high level content from lack of a certain amount of CP.
I have seen both things happen in previous games i have played.

BigM

Dekkameron wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

Same *** different game! To me every game has these same threads and it makes me laugh because the one's that make these threads are never looking at the world around them just how fast they can get to end and then complain the game sucks. So sick of these people and also the people that used bots to get there and make money but once the company bans these people all hell breaks out in threads like this.

ESO is a great game if you take the time to actually play it and not rush to end like some crazy person. Well that is my opinion anyway but am not really far off.

OK go for it prove me wrong, I can take it!

Woah!

Ok.. Rushing to the end game? I got my first VR14 a week before 1.6 happened.... So i'm probably one of the slowest levellers out there. and er.. i didn't use bots for my snail-like paced grind either... As for money.. i think i have about 20K... Woohoo!

I think it is not me who is the crazy person here.

See the point am making is your comment would be the perfect example of a post right after mine. Hard to believe what you said because it is always the same with these threads. Not saying you aren't telling it like it is, but once these threads start it is hard to actually think people hate this game so much when I log in and see a LOT of people having fun and not complaining about the game. So if you look at the threads here and start throwing % into it that same thought and % would be way higher in game where people are actually having fun.

Sad that the people that complain on forums are the ones the devs listen to the most and make bad decisions for the game because they listen to much to these threads.

Dekkameron

BigM wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

Same *** different game! To me every game has these same threads and it makes me laugh because the one's that make these threads are never looking at the world around them just how fast they can get to end and then complain the game sucks. So sick of these people and also the people that used bots to get there and make money but once the company bans these people all hell breaks out in threads like this.

ESO is a great game if you take the time to actually play it and not rush to end like some crazy person. Well that is my opinion anyway but am not really far off.

OK go for it prove me wrong, I can take it!

Woah!

Ok.. Rushing to the end game? I got my first VR14 a week before 1.6 happened.... So i'm probably one of the slowest levellers out there. and er.. i didn't use bots for my snail-like paced grind either... As for money.. i think i have about 20K... Woohoo!

I think it is not me who is the crazy person here.

See the point am making is your comment would be the perfect example of a post right after mine. Hard to believe what you said because it is always the same with these threads. Not saying you aren't telling it like it is, but once these threads start it is hard to actually think people hate this game so much when I log in and see a LOT of people having fun and not complaining about the game. So if you look at the threads here and start throwing % into it that same thought and % would be way higher in game where people are actually having fun.

Sad that the people that complain on forums are the ones the devs listen to the most and make bad decisions for the game because they listen to much to these threads.

I don't hate the game at all! I was though making a rather pessimistic views on ESO's future.

I'm still happily grinding away on my numerous alts (one of the reasons i took so long getting VR14 was that i have 6 VR characters).

EDIT: Perhaps when i made the thread i was hoping for some kind of response telling me that i was wrong and that everything will be fine and don't worry about it. You know to reassure my doubts rather than to spread "THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH!!" messages.

Morshire

This does seem sort of pointless. In truth, casual players want to be maxed and "equal" to solid hardcore end gamers, but never actually will. It is all an illusion, sometimes exaggerated even by their egos. Let's be honest:

Solid hardcore end game players or PVP players already compete with themselves, or their other similar game style players. That is their benchmark. (I am not knocking them. I watch their videos and read their threads) But for me, I am not, in my wildest dreams, going to ever be on a level playing field. I personally am okay with that. Why, because if you remove my ego, what other reason do I have to want to be there? I can do Vet dungeons. Maybe not as well as them or with as much ease. But if they had 50 billion CP and I had 5, would technically be irrelevant, as we both could do end game stuff.

PVP is different, cause you are constantly stacking up to others. But let's also be honest, I have not seen a lot of 1V1 out there. And currently, before CP, there was still those dominate players. Know how we beat them? We used strategy. Guess how we still do it, different strategies.

This "huge gap" casual players are worried about is really imaginary (in its' importance). But the facts are simple, the separation will always be there. And casuals will always be not equal. Does Joe-Flying-Tiger with 500 CP impact my game play since I have only 75 CP? Nope. Everywhere except PVP, it matters zero to my overall gameplay. Those hardcore players aren't out spamming "LFG VR14 only with 300+ CP" and booting people. Why, cause they have others, with similar interests to group with. And know how it affects me in PVP? I need more casual friends to do our job. We get owned, but you know how much satisfaction I get when I even get a couple hits in with the group that actually drops one of them? PRICELESS. Want to know why. Cause I know the keyboard jokey is cussing up a storm, and that one death will haunt them (hence all the revenge killings). When I die, it is just, "Aw crap, you mean I have to ride all the way back."

People keep making a huge deal out of this. But let's be honest. Players with maxed CP, tell me how they truly impact your game play? And if the only response is you get owned in PVP.....my bet is it was happening before, you just found something to blame it on. We, as a community, are making this an issue. And the new players are going to see it as an issue. But if we didn't talk about it, I'd bet a dollar to donuts, 90% of the people complaining wouldn't even know there was something to complain about.

Varicite

Morshire wrote: »

People keep making a huge deal out of this. But let's be honest. Players with maxed CP, tell me how they truly impact your game play? And if the only response is you get owned in PVP.....my bet is it was happening before, you just found something to blame it on. We, as a community, are making this an issue. And the new players are going to see it as an issue. But if we didn't talk about it, I'd bet a dollar to donuts, 90% of the people complaining wouldn't even know there was something to complain about.

This strikes me as a head-in-the-sand argument, to be completely honest.

Do you honestly think that a new player isn't going to notice somebody doing 8k more DPS than they are w/ the same gear, build, and class?

Do you seriously believe that new player is going to be happy when he asks how he's pulling those numbers and is told to go grind CP for the next 2 years, because there is literally no other way to be comparable even though they are running the same build / gear / etc?

You don't think that kind of power gap is simply going to discourage a new player when he realizes that he has 2 years of doing nothing but grinding CP to even be competitive w/ other players in the game?

People have quit the game over far less.

/shrug

arqe

I see people asking Achievements for Dungeons. I think OP is right. This is only a matter of time.

Morshire

Varicite wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

People keep making a huge deal out of this. But let's be honest. Players with maxed CP, tell me how they truly impact your game play? And if the only response is you get owned in PVP.....my bet is it was happening before, you just found something to blame it on. We, as a community, are making this an issue. And the new players are going to see it as an issue. But if we didn't talk about it, I'd bet a dollar to donuts, 90% of the people complaining wouldn't even know there was something to complain about.

This strikes me as a head-in-the-sand argument, to be completely honest.

Do you honestly think that a new player isn't going to notice somebody doing 8k more DPS than they are w/ the same gear, build, and class?

Do you seriously believe that new player is going to be happy when he asks how he's pulling those numbers and is told to go grind CP for the next 2 years, because there is literally no other way to be comparable even though they are running the same build / gear / etc?

You don't think that kind of power gap is simply going to discourage a new player when he realizes that he has 2 years of doing nothing but grinding CP to even be competitive w/ other players in the game?

People have quit the game over far less.

/shrug

Okay, fair point, but how does the new player even know that his DPS is lacking? No where is all the info you pointed to even seeable. If I stand next to X and we are fighting, I can't even tell what level they are or what their gear is. If I am in a group with them, where am I comparing myself? This isn't a head in the sand thing. I am saying, where now is this "comparing" method you think everyone is aware of?

And when I did ask how to be better, I already was told to research so I could make better gear, or grind stuff for gold to buy it. I was already faced with the task of getting better. And right now, you think that I would consider the CP grind any more daunting because I was trying to compare my character to yours? No, it is F___ING a daunting task whether I ever even see you or not. This is not a "You are better than me" issue. It is a game mechanics issue. ZOS put that time sink there, and that is what the problem is. Not whether I can do .03% less damage or not. The gap is purely a way to try and make the issue seem more important to all.

I do not disagree with the premise that the CS is just boggling to me. But not because Joe-Tiger-Pumpkin has a huge gap between us. The problem is "Why the hell would ZOS think that a 10 year system would even have any appeal to the casual player".

Maidenname

I also agree somewhat with OP thread....it is the matter of timing and concept how the game was rolled out in the first place. Changing the pace of the game and the fundamentals after the 9 months is somewhat a shock. But most MMO games are grind..grind...grind... That's the way they sustain the economy life of the company and profit. It's not a non profit based company or a .org establishment...we have to face it. And Crown Store is there to rake in the money for them. To lure and bait, most making money company will do that. It is HOW they do it and how upfront they should be, would have shown a better reflection and display good reputation and I will not delve into that here.

In LOTRO, you grind every dang skill and deeds to make your passives and character build. Takes eternity to kill the mobs because you will need 300 per tier and sometime 1000 mob for next tier. Skill tree was finally the ultimate thing added to the game to reinforce the God mode of your Avatar. Selling boosters was the way to help you reach that goal a pace faster and for them to make the extra moolah from us.

They never said reaching VR 14 was the end game (although sadly, in reality many players I know quit after VR 14 because they thought they have finished the game). Sure, if you have reached VR 14 and there's no content update yet, you can PVP to earn CP like the rest of PvE'ers will go on to grind for their CP or reroll their alt to earn their CP. Now..... Had ZENEMAX came up with all these skill tree and champion points and Justice System and B2P system at the launch day March 31, 2014, ESO would have been a real EPIC hit in MMO history. It didn't happen that way....and with the discord way of rolling out stuff like that, it came as a shock and disparity among ESO community ... As it does to me.

I don't want to give up ...yet... Still clinging to the hope something good and a good plan is at the doorstep. March 17 is so close.... I like to see more of my old gamer friends to come back.... I like the combat style if this game and it's look. I don't want to go back to LOTRO, or Rift or WoW or.....

there will be all sorts of complaints in the game... We have 2 players in our Guild that quit before getting to VR 1. They complained too many trees in AD zones... Complained why they can't solo public or group dungeons their own level (non-vet).. Complained why they have to ride their horse around the mountain or chasm just to get to their quest objective instead of just fly to it!....

tpanisiakb16_ESO

I'm really hoping ESO is just in its weird teenager phase. Remember when WoW was there? Back in Molten Core / Onyxia days? Remember if you had a druid you pretty much were forced into a specific spec to snag Innervate, and even then you couldn't really competitively heal with the priest. You were an Innervate bot, and you ONLY used it on the priests, never yourself. "Innervate or /gkick" was the motto at that time, and indeed it took a while for druids and shamans and other classes to really come into focus. I'm hoping this is what's going on with ESO.

Right now specific specs / builds / ultimates and group setups can trivialize content, just as much as certain specs (DK Healers, Sorc Tanks) can jeopardize the success of runs.

At this point I really hope ZOS brings the game into focus, works on balancing and re-balancing. As for the champion system, which is the original concern of the OP, I don't feel it's going to amount to much right now. I think it takes a back seat to concerning about having one or two Negate Bots, Templar-only healers and DK tanks for competitive endgame content.

There's really only a couple of passives that everyone should work towards. The rest is gravy or too situational to merit anything. At this point we should all be putting 30 points into the Ritual to unlock the crit bonus.

The question really is – will ZOS concern about classes and content still, or will their focus be on the cash shop in the months to come?

Soulshine

Morshire wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

People keep making a huge deal out of this. But let's be honest. Players with maxed CP, tell me how they truly impact your game play? And if the only response is you get owned in PVP.....my bet is it was happening before, you just found something to blame it on. We, as a community, are making this an issue. And the new players are going to see it as an issue. But if we didn't talk about it, I'd bet a dollar to donuts, 90% of the people complaining wouldn't even know there was something to complain about.

This strikes me as a head-in-the-sand argument, to be completely honest.

Do you honestly think that a new player isn't going to notice somebody doing 8k more DPS than they are w/ the same gear, build, and class?

Do you seriously believe that new player is going to be happy when he asks how he's pulling those numbers and is told to go grind CP for the next 2 years, because there is literally no other way to be comparable even though they are running the same build / gear / etc?

You don't think that kind of power gap is simply going to discourage a new player when he realizes that he has 2 years of doing nothing but grinding CP to even be competitive w/ other players in the game?

People have quit the game over far less.

/shrug

Okay, fair point, but how does the new player even know that his DPS is lacking? No where is all the info you pointed to even seeable. If I stand next to X and we are fighting, I can't even tell what level they are or what their gear is. If I am in a group with them, where am I comparing myself? This isn't a head in the sand thing. I am saying, where now is this "comparing" method you think everyone is aware of?

And when I did ask how to be better, I already was told to research so I could make better gear, or grind stuff for gold to buy it. I was already faced with the task of getting better. And right now, you think that I would consider the CP grind any more daunting because I was trying to compare my character to yours? No, it is F___ING a daunting task whether I ever even see you or not. This is not a "You are better than me" issue. It is a game mechanics issue. ZOS put that time sink there, and that is what the problem is. Not whether I can do .03% less damage or not. The gap is purely a way to try and make the issue seem more important to all.

I do not disagree with the premise that the CS is just boggling to me. But not because Joe-Tiger-Pumpkin has a huge gap between us. The problem is "Why the hell would ZOS think that a 10 year system would even have any appeal to the casual player".

Perhaps you play the game without addons, but there are many which easily tell you what amount of dps is being done. What gear someone has is easily known if you craft or run instances, since pieces can be recognizable, even the quality of them since the color render is affected, etc.

A new player at level 15 on a brand new account with Zero CPs until level 50 is a very different player than a vet level 15 alt with 360 CPs already applied. I personally tested this repeatedly and discussed it at length in another thread both on PTS and here, the latter of which has been permanently sunk by devs on these forums.

It is not a mere issue of not needing them, it is an issue of balancing across the entire spectrum of the game, which even Sage himself told us at the Guild Summit would be necessary due to these changes.

Varicite

Morshire wrote: »

Okay, fair point, but how does the new player even know that his DPS is lacking? No where is all the info you pointed to even seeable. If I stand next to X and we are fighting, I can't even tell what level they are or what their gear is. If I am in a group with them, where am I comparing myself? This isn't a head in the sand thing. I am saying, where now is this "comparing" method you think everyone is aware of?

In any group function that is remotely "important" in-game (ie: not soloing quests and crafting, etc), people are going to let you know if you are dragging the rest of them down.

And probably not in a very nice manner. : P

I'm not sure the rest of your post is actually directed at me, but I can definitely agree w/ a few of your points, such as the game being daunting to a new player regardless. I don't think I made any allusions to being better than anybody else; I was simply making a 0 CP to 3600 CP comparison that would be easy to understand.

TheVindelator

Maybe there should be a CP capped PVP campaign?

That seems like the biggest issue down the road.

Morshire

@Soulshine and @Varicite - I agree about add-ons and all the points you both make. What I was saying is to the mass of casual players. Yes there is a portion of the player base that use add-ons, there is even a smaller portion that religiously stick to the min/max numbers. So, if the general overall of new players (who undoubtedly will not fall into this category) won't even be affected by the "gap" discussed here. I am not saying everything is peachy and we should all just smile and share hugs. I am saying, making this about a "power gap" rather than about what a colossal grind fest we call CS seems pointless.

The power gap is always there. And as the years progress, that gap will inadvertently grow between new and old. CS or Santa Hunter Skill points. Whatever you call it. In truth, it matters to a large portion of casual players not the least. What is important. Whether a new player gets to 50CP or 100CP, the remainder of that issue lies not in how far ahead the next guy is, but in how far the end is for anyone.......That is what I am saying.

Hopefully that makes sense? You are both saying valid things, and for me I get it. I am not trying to say you're wrong and I am right. I am saying that the approach taken in this thread about the problem is actually creating a reason for people to be frustrated. For casual players (for the most part) are not being affected by the CS because hard core players have maxed out CP and they haven't. Casual players, regardless of where others are in the CS, are faced with a system that will require 5-10 years of their time to finish.

Let's be honest. A casual player (generally) is not going to be playing this game with the hopes of ever maxing out the CS. This isn't because they are frustrated that @Soulshine is throwing 10% more DPS or heals than they are. Truthfully, most of them won't know why (per say) that you are better, until they ask. But without asking, they are going to quickly see that if they want to reach this "end" or "completion" of the CS, they need to casually spend 5-10 years of their time, or drastically change their game style.

If we approach this from that logic, then the problem makes sense to me. But saying it is about some gap in power....hmm, seems less about the issue and just whining to me. (That is my opinion. Hopefully no one feels offended. Not my intent) It just seems with all these threads, we are losing sight of the point. CS is a monumental grindfest.

Soulshine

Morshire wrote: »

@Soulshine and @Varicite - I agree about add-ons and all the points you both make. What I was saying is to the mass of casual players. Yes there is a portion of the player base that use add-ons, there is even a smaller portion that religiously stick to the min/max numbers. So, if the general overall of new players (who undoubtedly will not fall into this category) won't even be affected by the "gap" discussed here. I am not saying everything is peachy and we should all just smile and share hugs. I am saying, making this about a "power gap" rather than about what a colossal grind fest we call CS seems pointless.

The power gap is always there. And as the years progress, that gap will inadvertently grow between new and old. CS or Santa Hunter Skill points. Whatever you call it. In truth, it matters to a large portion of casual players not the least. What is important. Whether a new player gets to 50CP or 100CP, the remainder of that issue lies not in how far ahead the next guy is, but in how far the end is for anyone.......That is what I am saying.

Hopefully that makes sense? You are both saying valid things, and for me I get it. I am not trying to say you're wrong and I am right. I am saying that the approach taken in this thread about the problem is actually creating a reason for people to be frustrated. For casual players (for the most part) are not being affected by the CS because hard core players have maxed out CP and they haven't. Casual players, regardless of where others are in the CS, are faced with a system that will require 5-10 years of their time to finish.

Let's be honest. A casual player (generally) is not going to be playing this game with the hopes of ever maxing out the CS. This isn't because they are frustrated that @Soulshine is throwing 10% more DPS or heals than they are. Truthfully, most of them won't know why (per say) that you are better, until they ask. But without asking, they are going to quickly see that if they want to reach this "end" or "completion" of the CS, they need to casually spend 5-10 years of their time, or drastically change their game style.

If we approach this from that logic, then the problem makes sense to me. But saying it is about some gap in power....hmm, seems less about the issue and just whining to me. (That is my opinion. Hopefully no one feels offended. Not my intent) It just seems with all these threads, we are losing sight of the point. CS is a monumental grindfest.

You cannot divorce one issue from the other. It is as simple as that. There are players who will care about this and they will care for different reasons ---- and it does not mean they are whinning any more than you are.

Facts are, the Champion System was unfinished as well, which most people continue to overlook. We have still not been told ETA on phase 4 --- if in fact we ever get it. Sage himself said that it would be irresponsible to place the Champion System in the game on top of the Veteran System yet that is where they have left it for the time being, possibly running into many more months. Such actions speak for themselves.

Maidenname

I like to add a couple more issues that will actually kill this game if not addressed ASAP... which it's part of matter that ruin my pleasure in the game is....

@. The amount of bugs is culminating each day....beginning with Enlightenment...the miss and hit enlightenment on my screen is frustrating!!!

@ And Cyrodiil lag... After mindlessly grinding to rank 14 to unlock all my Alliance War passives, I can't bear to go back to Cyrodil since 1.6 ....

Morshire

Soulshine wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

@Soulshine and @Varicite - I agree about add-ons and all the points you both make. What I was saying is to the mass of casual players. Yes there is a portion of the player base that use add-ons, there is even a smaller portion that religiously stick to the min/max numbers. So, if the general overall of new players (who undoubtedly will not fall into this category) won't even be affected by the "gap" discussed here. I am not saying everything is peachy and we should all just smile and share hugs. I am saying, making this about a "power gap" rather than about what a colossal grind fest we call CS seems pointless.

The power gap is always there. And as the years progress, that gap will inadvertently grow between new and old. CS or Santa Hunter Skill points. Whatever you call it. In truth, it matters to a large portion of casual players not the least. What is important. Whether a new player gets to 50CP or 100CP, the remainder of that issue lies not in how far ahead the next guy is, but in how far the end is for anyone.......That is what I am saying.

Hopefully that makes sense? You are both saying valid things, and for me I get it. I am not trying to say you're wrong and I am right. I am saying that the approach taken in this thread about the problem is actually creating a reason for people to be frustrated. For casual players (for the most part) are not being affected by the CS because hard core players have maxed out CP and they haven't. Casual players, regardless of where others are in the CS, are faced with a system that will require 5-10 years of their time to finish.

Let's be honest. A casual player (generally) is not going to be playing this game with the hopes of ever maxing out the CS. This isn't because they are frustrated that @Soulshine is throwing 10% more DPS or heals than they are. Truthfully, most of them won't know why (per say) that you are better, until they ask. But without asking, they are going to quickly see that if they want to reach this "end" or "completion" of the CS, they need to casually spend 5-10 years of their time, or drastically change their game style.

If we approach this from that logic, then the problem makes sense to me. But saying it is about some gap in power....hmm, seems less about the issue and just whining to me. (That is my opinion. Hopefully no one feels offended. Not my intent) It just seems with all these threads, we are losing sight of the point. CS is a monumental grindfest.

You cannot divorce one issue from the other. It is as simple as that. There are players who will care about this and they will care for different reasons ---- and it does not mean they are whinning any more than you are.

Facts are, the Champion System was unfinished as well, which most people continue to overlook. We have still not been told ETA on phase 4 --- if in fact we ever get it. Sage himself said that it would be irresponsible to place the Champion System in the game on top of the Veteran System yet that is where they have left it for the time being, possibly running into many more months. Such actions speak for themselves.

Okay, I concede. I will just fade into the background. Because, as a casual player, the fact that there is a "gap" between me and most end game players doesn't mean squat (to me). I am disheartened by the grind of CP, not that anyone is better than me.

Soulshine

Morshire wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

@Soulshine and @Varicite - I agree about add-ons and all the points you both make. What I was saying is to the mass of casual players. Yes there is a portion of the player base that use add-ons, there is even a smaller portion that religiously stick to the min/max numbers. So, if the general overall of new players (who undoubtedly will not fall into this category) won't even be affected by the "gap" discussed here. I am not saying everything is peachy and we should all just smile and share hugs. I am saying, making this about a "power gap" rather than about what a colossal grind fest we call CS seems pointless.

The power gap is always there. And as the years progress, that gap will inadvertently grow between new and old. CS or Santa Hunter Skill points. Whatever you call it. In truth, it matters to a large portion of casual players not the least. What is important. Whether a new player gets to 50CP or 100CP, the remainder of that issue lies not in how far ahead the next guy is, but in how far the end is for anyone.......That is what I am saying.

Hopefully that makes sense? You are both saying valid things, and for me I get it. I am not trying to say you're wrong and I am right. I am saying that the approach taken in this thread about the problem is actually creating a reason for people to be frustrated. For casual players (for the most part) are not being affected by the CS because hard core players have maxed out CP and they haven't. Casual players, regardless of where others are in the CS, are faced with a system that will require 5-10 years of their time to finish.

Let's be honest. A casual player (generally) is not going to be playing this game with the hopes of ever maxing out the CS. This isn't because they are frustrated that @Soulshine is throwing 10% more DPS or heals than they are. Truthfully, most of them won't know why (per say) that you are better, until they ask. But without asking, they are going to quickly see that if they want to reach this "end" or "completion" of the CS, they need to casually spend 5-10 years of their time, or drastically change their game style.

If we approach this from that logic, then the problem makes sense to me. But saying it is about some gap in power....hmm, seems less about the issue and just whining to me. (That is my opinion. Hopefully no one feels offended. Not my intent) It just seems with all these threads, we are losing sight of the point. CS is a monumental grindfest.

You cannot divorce one issue from the other. It is as simple as that. There are players who will care about this and they will care for different reasons ---- and it does not mean they are whinning any more than you are.

Facts are, the Champion System was unfinished as well, which most people continue to overlook. We have still not been told ETA on phase 4 --- if in fact we ever get it. Sage himself said that it would be irresponsible to place the Champion System in the game on top of the Veteran System yet that is where they have left it for the time being, possibly running into many more months. Such actions speak for themselves.

Okay, I concede. I will just fade into the background. Because, as a casual player, the fact that there is a "gap" between me and most end game players doesn't mean squat (to me). I am disheartened by the grind of CP, not that anyone is better than me.

It absolutely IS disheartening. It is also just another grind on top of a grind. In phase 4, there is a clear opportunity for them to take this up and address it with improvements, but I am not holding my breath.

Morshire

Soulshine wrote: »

It absolutely IS disheartening. It is also just another grind on top of a grind. In phase 4, there is a clear opportunity for them to take this up and address it with improvements, but I am not holding my breath.

I know I said I would fade into the background. Sorry, but this hit the point. (Forgive me, I am slow) Okay, ZOS will listen IF enough people care. So in making this issue about a "gap" that actually matters to a smaller portion of the player base, ZOS ignores it. Making it apply to all, then everyone would rally, hence attention and with some special fairy dust, ZOS would fix it.

Power gaps, actually matter to maybe 25% of the players. (Just throwing numbers here) Let's say 1/2 of them are going to be towards the top, so their concern is really out of being good gamers and caring about the game. 5% is the hard core base that wants or needs that "gap" for whatever reason (Not knocking them for wanting it. Earn it and it should be yours). Now we are discussing 10% of the overall player base. 10% probably won't register with ZOS.

However, for 100% of players who will be gaining 1CP or the full 3600CP, they will be faced with the grind that is the CS. If the focus is about the grind, and not about what the grind means to anyone one in particular, then you could get 85% of them rallying. 85% of the players would get ZOS attention. We still need that magical fairy dust (cause you we see how well things get fixed) but the difference is you have ZOS attention.

That is all I was saying. History has shown us, right here on the forums, if enough people get behind something, they listen. Remember 30CP going to 70CP? It has to matter to people if you want them to rally. That was all I was saying. I realize I did it poorly. Apologies for being simple. Apologies if I ruffled feathers.

Sallington

Gidorick wrote: »

Why does there have to be a "finish line"? What is your incentive to play once you get to that finish line?

A gear finish line and a grinding for passive buffs finish line are totally different.

At max level, everyone should be on an even playing field, minus their build and gear. The champ systems basically makes it so the "max level" grind is so outrageous that in 6 months people at the same level and same gear and same build could be very different in strength. That just seems wrong to me.

The difference in strength should come from gear, build and playstyle. Not how many CPs you've grinded.

Robbmrp

IMO ESO would have been just fine with Veteran Levels increasing in the future. Or changing them to a numerical value as well. Future updates could have increase those max levels and I would have loved to go up to the new max, getting more skill points and new gear along with it. I would rather have that kind of progression than the new Champion Point system which will take years and years to get to max level. Just my preference.

EQBallzz

The problem isn't the CS per se. The problem is making the earning of CP so abysmally slow that the large majority of players will fall behind or quit because they can't make adequate progress in the limited couple of hours of time they have to play each day. They need to stop worrying about the very small minority who might someday earn every CP in the system and start worrying about the huge majority that will never reach the end but want to feel like they are making good progress nonetheless. There is nothing that will kill this game faster than if the average player feels like it's pointless to proceed because they are wasting their time doing tedious, repetitive tasks for little reward.

Dtweakb16_ESO2

I like the champion system but hate the veteran system and the fact that they gave every RR14 player a free 75 champion points while still forcing EVERY new or returning player to grind to RR14.

It would make sense if they gave players these points when removing veteran ranks but now they just created an even larger gap between their player base.

Things like the champion system work because after a couple weeks you just tire and stop grinding them obsessively but now all the hardcore RR14 players in legendary gear just got their hands on a free 2 months worth of champion points!

Honestly, I don't think anybody should have got free champion points. In the time it will take most to get 75 champion points most players could get geared and to max level in a different MMO and here they just give them out for free to a large chuck of their player base.

Soulshine

Dtweakb16_ESO2 wrote: »

I like the champion system but hate the veteran system and the fact that they gave every RR14 player a free 75 champion points while still forcing EVERY new or returning player to grind to RR14.

It would make sense if they gave players these points when removing veteran ranks but now they just created an even larger gap between their player base.

Things like the champion system work because after a couple weeks you just tire and stop grinding them obsessively but now all the hardcore RR14 players in legendary gear just got their hands on a free 2 months worth of champion points!

Honestly, I don't think anybody should have got free champion points. In the time it will take most to get 75 champion points most players could get geared and to max level in a different MMO and here they just give them out for free to a large chuck of their player base.

Small correction: it was actually 70 points, not 75 and not every vr14 player got 70. All characters in veteran rank received "free points," depending on the rank they had and how far along in XP they were into their rank at the time of the conversion.

Removal of VR may not even happen for a very long time, so the only choice is to keep leveling or stop playing VR characters, opting for an alt instead.

k2blader

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

I don't pvp that much in ESO, but when i do i like to know i have the best of everything that money or grinding or running dungeons that provide, i hate to have a measurable disadvantage over another player.
Someone beating me because they have a build that beats mine is fine i can deal with that.

It's nice to hear that said. Sometimes it seems like people feel entitled to have large advantages over others in PvP due only to the fact they spend many more hours playing the game than the average person. When that doesn't really make sense because if you're truly interested in being the "best" you won't mind folks having equivalent options because then it *will* come down to who has the most skill.

Ashigaru

Dekkameron wrote: »

Hullo!

I think the champion system will ultimately kill ESO because of the continuous game of catching up.

I don't pvp that much in ESO, but when i do i like to know i have the best of everything that money or grinding or running dungeons that provide, i hate to have a measurable disadvantage over another player.
Someone beating me because they have a build that beats mine is fine i can deal with that.

But this isnt all about pvp.. How long will it be before people start only taking people into trials etc if they have so many CPs in the "right" places?

I fear for the worst i really do, the effects hardly show at the moment. but wait until maybe 6 months to a year down the line...

When i first played, I was one of those people that once i got to level 50 and defeated Molag Bal i thought ""right! thats that done! now lets pvp!" then the goalposts constantly changed, moving further and further away.
I eventually leveled to VR14 after a stupid amount of grinding.. but when i did i find the goalposts now have have moved again.. to about 3 years away....

I know what i am saying is convoluted, but i felt i needed to get something off my chest..

I like games that have a set finish line so i get to that point then feel like i can compete (at least in gear and using skill) with another person.

I know it sounds weird....

Anyway....

EQ has the same thing as the champ system more or less and it didnt kill the game but it did split the community from the HC or elites to the regular to casual players. Which really isnt a bad thing since the HC and the elite tend to look down on or condensed to the other splits.

Disappearingone

Varicite wrote: »

Disappearingone wrote: »

Nonsense. The gains are tiny, and granted they will add up over time and I'm sure there will be a few Elitist guilds that "Require"(Other players can not see your CP rank. Thus, there is no way to enforce such a rule.) you to be at a certain Champion Point amount, but so long as any new PVE content is designed to where a group of non CP VR14 can complete it then I don't see the problem.

....

And I highly doubt CP ever be a requirement to run Trails ect. All you people who don't the like CP system for whatever reason, be it: "New Players will be so far behind they won't ever be able to run things/catch up" and "People will impose requirements on how much you must have and where they are spent" Are just Pessimist or are upset that they will need to grind a whole lot to feel like they are top tier.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to imagine a world where people won't take you as a pug because your dps is lower than their requirement. Have you not played many games w/ endgame raiding activities?

Your CP total directly translates into higher DPS. The difference between 70cp and 3600cp is in the neighborhood of 8k dps. That's noticeable. That's very easy to single out.

"LF2M DPS HM Trials, 18k DPS min". You've seriously never seen anybody say anything like this in chat before?

It doesn't really matter that the content CAN be completed w/ less dps, because it can be completed FASTER w/ higher dps. And unfortunately, the only metric the game goes by when gauging how well you did is how FAST you completed it.

Have seen this exact same thing happen in other MMOs (and they didn't even have timed trials). People are lazy and don't want to work. If they have a pool of players that can pull 20k+ DPS, you better believe nobody is going to want your "amazing" 9k DPS.

If you have good friends that you run w/, this is obviously not as much of a problem. If not, people won't see it as "This guy has enough DPS to complete the fights". They're going to see it as "This guy does less DPS than a Sorc pet, lololol."

In a scenario when most players have a ton of CP spent already, it is absolutely not far-fetched to believe that the majority of the player base will be held to a certain (often arbitrary) standard when it comes to DPS, durability, etc.

Yes, I have been playing MMOs for decades, I know how people behave. But, You can not see another player CP rank, nor can you see their dps. So, how would anyone enforce such a demand for 18k dps? And, If the rest of the group is pulling down twice of your average 9/10k then ( sense the content is designed for that lowly 9k to be able to complete it) would there be a really discernible difference in how fast the boss exploded, and how would the raid leader or whoever even figure out who was only doing half the expected dps?

Don't get me wrong, there will be elitist guilds out there who will try to pull this kind of thing and I have no doubt they will be reasonably successful, but it won't be the norm.

I also have to ask where did your "The difference between 70cp and 3600cp is in the neighborhood of 8k dps" figures come from? And, even if those outrageously ridiculous numbers were correct, so what? 3600 CP would take years, yes years to get 3600 CP. Lets say that a relatively hard core player gets 4 CP every single day, then it would take that player 2 and a half years to get 3600 CP... I don't know about you but I get 1 maybe 2 CP a day, so 5+ years worth of CP for me...I like this game a whole lot...but 5 years is a long time.

long story short, in games where dps meters can check party members dps, or stats/characters are even examinable a more elitist community will develop. So, unless people ask you to post a SS of your DPS meter showing 14-18k, or whatever, and of your CP amount and where they are spent before they take you on a trail run there is no way an expectation of that kind of dps will develop. All a raid leader can expect is that a player meets the base DPS standard of 9-10k.

It is pessimism plain and simple. Some of you guys want CP to be a bad thing. There seems to be a type of MMO player developing where nothing is ever good, I have seen this in my own guild. These people talk like they HATE this game, all they do is go on and on about it's problems...yes I know it has more than it's share, but if they find the game sooo bad why do they play? Mind you this way well before 1.6 and OMG did these same Debbie Downers lose their minds over how much worse was this game is gonna get thanks to CP.

CP is a good thing. I will likely never get all 3600 CP but I do want them. I look forward to running vet pledges and grinding out repeatable Craglorn quest now, because I know I am making my toon stronger even if I don't get my drop.

olsborg

If the champion point max cap of 3600 is kept, it will ruin pvp, but if the cap is at 1200, it wont make a HUGE difference and people actually have to choose wich stars they want to max out etc.

ben_ESO5

EQBallzz wrote: »

The problem isn't the CS per se. The problem is making the earning of CP so abysmally slow that the large majority of players will fall behind or quit because they can't make adequate progress in the limited couple of hours of time they have to play each day.

What? I just don't get where people get this from. It is not abysmally slow by any means. Even if you played 24/7, you still get a CP's worth of enlightenment per day, meaning at least one of your CPs during your playtime goes really fast. I don't play 24/7, and when I do it's usually for just a couple hours, so I might have two days of enlightenment saved up, which I can bang out without hardly thinking about it. People just don't seem to get that it's not a grind, unless you make it one.

xaraan

I don't get the 'finish line' mentality. This isn't call of duty where it's just about pvp. It's not just that kind of game, there is usually continual advancement in the type of game ESO is, so it shouldn't come as a shock. Fact is, if there isn't, less people have reason to keep playing except those that just want to jump in and "deathmatch" others like this is just about pvp one specific type of pvp.

As for casual players, if you are casual, then you probably don't care that much about being min/maxed, that's why you play casually. And we have plenty of players in the guild that work all day have families and only play a bit that have still managed to min/max their character quite well and even if behind on champ points a little are still players I would take on any kind of run, so really it's about what you put into the game, no matter how much time you have, and it should be.

Rune_Relic

CS for PVE= Good
CS of PVP = Bad
/end_thread