Sandmanninja wrote: »

Stop picking on DKs. Learn to take the talon damage the way ZOS intends you to....
-a DK

What he meant to say:

We realise we have the easiest time and pound for pound are clearly the strongest class. Please leave it like this ZOS.

@Nihil‌ I was referring to the area of the skill, so that it would gain in radius. But it actually doesn't matter. The idea is that it should have the same effect but requires the player to aim the skill. It would mean a slight nerf to PvE but the effect could still be achieved by some positioning.

I started a DK alt recently and she is now up to level 20. I have just activated the DoT morph of Talons. So far I'm underwhelmed by this skill and wonder why many people on this forum seem so impressed with it. It has poor range. You have to get very close to the enemy for it to work and by then Talons seems pointless. Maybe the DoT morph will change my mind when I start using it, but so far there are other skills that seem much more useful to me.

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I started a DK alt recently and she is now up to level 20. I have just activated the DoT morph of Talons. So far I'm underwhelmed by this skill and wonder why many people on this forum seem so impressed with it. It has poor range. You have to get very close to the enemy for it to work and by then Talons seems pointless. Maybe the DoT morph will change my mind when I start using it, but so far there are other skills that seem much more useful to me.

It is to do with pvp not pve. Not entirely sure as a lvl 20 you'd have had time to understand.

okay, so heres the long winded explanation that can get complicated that i pray to the gods people read:

there are 3 basic types of player based manipulating abilities-crowd control, root, and snare (everquest had a fourth [charm] that now tends to be out of the player arsenal)

crowd control (most manipulated control)- any ability that completely removes a player or NPC from having any control is considered crowd contol. in other words the effected player/npc can't move freely, use abilities freely, use potions freely. these abilities can manifest themselves in two basic forms- fear and general lockdowns. fear is typically the more dangerous of crowd controls in that they can throw an NPC into other mobs, due to pathing, and put more hostile targets into combat. this applies to players in that the pathing can send the effected party into a group of their enemies producing a 2+ versus 1 scenario. general lockdowns tend to neutralize the NPC/player completely, where a player/NPC stops moving, having free use of abilities/potions. the intent of this line of abilities is to completely remove the NPC/player from combat to be dealt with later, at a more optimal time. bear in mind that stuns/knockdown don't particularly fall in this category as they are in their own category-stuns/knockdown. that is not to say they can't be used in similar fashion by skilled players, but their effect and duration are drastically lesser to that of a true crowd control.

roots (moderate manipulated control)-roots only do a portion of what crowd control can do- immobilize. the player/NPC can still utilize their abilities/potions, however, are unable to move entirely. this is tends to be less than crowd control but more than snares, because they give a greater advantage to the player using said abilities versus the one effected by them. they can be used as a retreat tool, a tool to clump npc/players together for greater AoE optimization, and aid in threat management. through skilled use, rooting players/npcs allows the user of roots, to stop a targets freedom of movement, enabling the user to manipulate distances to the users advantage based on their weapon type (typically ranged). this tactic is known as root kiting- user roots the target, puts distance between user and the effected, uses ranged attacks for the duration of the root, once threat is within range of the user, root reapplied and rinse and repeat. it can be used to support tanks in PVE, by locking down targets so they maybe attacked by the tank with relevant threat builders, aiding in threat management and protecting ranged players (casters/archers). roots can be used to clump a set of NPCs/players, to render melee useless by allowing the player to move out of range of the melee based targets and focus on fewer mobs at once in one round of combat-this doesn't guarantee you will only fight 1v1 (like a crowd control may), but it can reduce the numbers from 5 targets down to say 2-3 (increasing the users survivability).

snares (weakest manipulated control)- snares only do a weaker portion roots do, making it "weaker" than the two above. simply put, they slow targets down. the effected party still has access to abilites, potions, and even movement, but the benefit to the user is the effected target's movement is greatly hindered. this allows for an MMO tactic known as kiting- a player snares a target, then puts the appropriate distance between the user and the effected, to use damage based abilities on the effected party. kiting typically requires a larger amount of situational awareness and target specific knowledge to maximize the use of kiting. fear kiting and fear crowd control sometimes utilizes snares to avoid producing adds during the duration of the fear, though typically inflicting damage on effected parties removes fear, much in the same way as damage to the other crowd control abilities.

so whats the problem?

the problem is that the suggestion that root should be treated as a crowd control, isn't wholly reasonable- a root maybe a FORM of crowd control, but that isn't to say it should be lumped WITH the crowd control abilities. there are counters to root-you can still use abilities, you can still use potions, you just can't move. while one can simply spam root, keep in mind, all that player is doing is spamming root. they aren't a major damage dealer in the time that they are spamming it. the game also allows, through the use of stamina, to remove root (universal to all players). players also have a choice to use stamina, magicka, or a combination of both. i get irritated when the demand is nerf the ability, instead of the player learning to deal with the ability or accepting that they just have to eat that particular situation. PVP tends to be some form of rock, paper, scissors- tanks out survive (health wise) DPS, dps kills quicker than tanks and healers, healers can out last dps (based on mana/magika versus stamina/whatever). being that this is an MMO you shouldn't be worring about the rock, paper, scissors aspect, since you should be playing with a unit of tank+DPS+healer. so if you go it alone, and you lose to a healer/tank/dps, its one of those 'well duh" things for some of use because that is exactly how the game is programmed to behave. you can't have PVP thats equal across the board without ruining PVE; you can't have equal in PVE without it ruining PVP.

I think part of the problem is that it hits three people (didn't it used to hit 6 as well)? That's what makes it cost more to counter it than it does to cast it. Make it hit a single target, and that would change.

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

You have to get very close to the enemy for it to work and by then Talons seems pointless.

That's exactly the point you missed. Unlike mobs, players (well, some at least) want to get away from you. Maybe after you unlock Lava Whip and actually see those skills in PvP you'll get a more complete picture.

Merlight wrote: »

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

You have to get very close to the enemy for it to work and by then Talons seems pointless.

That's exactly the point you missed. Unlike mobs, players (well, some at least) want to get away from you. Maybe after you unlock Lava Whip and actually see those skills in PvP you'll get a more complete picture.

Oh I see. Thanks for explaining it better this time. Yes, I can see the value in using talons for that reason.

Sublime wrote: »

@Nihil As The 120° is just an example, which can be changed to achieve the desired effect.

"It would have about 4-5 less meter range then sorcs encase, but cover over 2 x more area. Having it a PBAoE actually is a downfall in comparison to having it a range AoE as it forces the player to get in the middle of the fight vs being able to use it at a farther distance."

This was my idea, it would force the DK to include more movement to his gameplay or at least rotate the camera, which is already an improvement.

"but to give it a higher advantage for the cost, specially when the area it would covers is 66% (based on a 120 degree angle) of the area in front of you it doesn't really sound to be as balanced as it would still deal damage (and thus break NB out of stealth easily) and the aiming wouldn't be that hard."

The idea of limiting the AOE is to force the caster to think about it before casting, I.e. the opponent has more options to avoid it. I personally don't see a problem with it breaking the NB stealth still they have plenty of ways to escape (shadow image/roll dodge -> cloak). To make the aiming a bit harder one could simply reduce it from 120° to 90° to make it more challenging. The 120° were thought to still give it 100% of the area (same with the 90°), in order to enable the caster to still excert the same zone control as before but with a higher difficulty.

In my eyes the end idea of this skill is as follows:
Control close standing enemies and deal a small to medium amount damage to them.

I agree that it probably doesn't make much sense to discuss this in regard of 1.6, but I just like to balance stuff.

My main concern with it is the added benefits that it can give from making it a cone attack while maintaining the same statistics it currently has. With it being a PBAoE currently, it forces the Dragon Knight to move to keep it on a specific target, other players can easier gauge the distance that they could be affected by the skill (and if the dragon knight isn't spamming RS and burning a ton of mana) and range the dragon knight. By turning it into a range root you put the dragon knight in more control of the skill (although forcing them to aim a bit more)and giving it more use into multiple builds (ie range builds). It also then brings into the question the damage and the cost. In comparison to the sorc's encase (area of 45 feet^2) it has a drastically higher area covered (~108 feet^2) does more damage then the damage morph (close to 500 with the dot, in comparison to close to 200 with shattering prison) with a lower cost, sacrificing a bit of range (but easier targetting), and about 2.6 seconds (or .5 without passives) and a 15% crit rate (with passives).

Adding range just seems to give more options, and while I am all for diversifying skills to cover more areas of game play, I think something else would have to give to keep it in line (balanced against not the same) with other abilities already in game. I also would then have to wonder how chocking talons would work with the cone affect, and if it would have to be changed or not.

I understand thinking about the skill and having fun trying to balance it, I like to theory craft builds, and I am just itching for 1.6 to see the different combinations that can be obtained. Depending on what they do to other abilities (encase, maybe twisting path) I might go and agree with your idea once 1.6 hits.

(numbers based on making 2 PTS characters and using aether armor and putting all points into magicka).