Talons - Please enlighten me

Spangla · December 2014

Yes encase doesn't either. WHY?

Nihil · December 2014

If we are making all CC's the same then we might as well make it that you can't attack while rooted... the thing is it isn't the same, it has a major drawback. Your comment before about

Spangla wrote: »

However i'd swap it for talons in a heart beat. Id still get the relief from being attacked that fear offers cause id just talon then walk away talon then walk away. Actually the more I think about it the more op talons are. By doing this I could also stop a melee opponent from attacking. Talons therefore would do the same job as fear only much much more.

shows that you are over estimating the ability of root ( talking about the CC not talons in particular). The majority of your opponents should still be able to do some sort of attack (or heal if needed) while rooted, their really is no reason that their isn't a range option some where on a players bar. Roots, specially in 1v1, doesn't stop opponents from attacking you, they will switch to a bow and snipe, or switch to a destruction staff and use force shock, or use flying blade if they are using duel wielding, and that is just looking at weapon skills.

Just because you are willing to give up something does not justify changing a skill or how skills work. A lot of people would love to adjust what their class get, and sometimes give up the skill that you want for the skill you are willing to give away. Thus that argument doesn't hold much weight when comparing different CC's.

Each CC is different, so should honestly be treated differently. Fear should have some aspect to it that stun doesn't, roots should act differently then disorients. Their should have give and takes that make them more useful in specific situations.

o, and snare doesn't give you immunity afterwards, nor can it be broken out of (without a skill), so that should have an immunity period too?

Spangla · December 2014

Cool ok np - I cant attack whilst rooted makes no difference whatsoever to anything. I'll have to break it just like i do now.

Great implement it give it a cc timer and we'll be further down the road to balance.

Spangla · December 2014

Nihil = DK with head in sand. Yawn

Nihil · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

Nihil = DK with head in sand. Yawn

LOL, my main is actually a sorc, that actually doesn't use encase in pvp due to the cost of the ability.

Spangla wrote: »

Cool ok np - I cant attack whilst rooted makes no difference whatsoever to anything. I'll have to break it just like i do now.

Great implement it give it a cc timer and we'll be further down the road to balance.

So you want every single ability to be a carbon copy of other abilities? Honestly that sounds boring, and plain lazy actually. The thing is you don't NEED to break out of a root. Your example is purely from a "my character vs dragonknight" perspective. The example you gave on how you would use root (root take a step back root) wouldn't stop a sorc who use destruction staff at all, it wouldn't stop a NB who uses siphoning abilities and then teleport strike in. There is a balance already in place for root, I think your main gripe is actually with talon's in particular and has really little to do with the lack of immunity that roots give.

I do think some CC's should be looked at, primarily Disorient as it is currently no where near as useful as any of the other CC's due to all of its draw backs.

NordJitsu · December 2014

I've come to a conclusion.

Don't feed it.

Spangla · December 2014

I don't want them to be carbon copies but the cc timer set a precedent that roots flout quite obviously.....

Some people would argue the grass isn't green for the sake of it dear god

Nihil · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

I don't want them to be carbon copies but the cc timer set a precedent that roots flout quite obviously.....

Some people would argue the grass isn't green for the sake of it dear god

If a CC has inherent draw backs in comparison to other CC's, do you think they should have some kind of advantage to counter act this? As we aren't having carbon copy abilities, how should we balance these different abilities to make them useful still? Would you be willing to break the "rules for CC's" to give these weaker CC's an advantage?

Spangla · December 2014

Not what this discussion is about frankly so don't care.

Please stay on topic.

TequilaFire · December 2014

You all won't be happy till you get DKs removed from the game period.
Talons has it problems and range limitations, my sorcs CC abilities cast twice
as far as talons on my DK.
Also like many other abilities talons doesn't always fire the first time I press
the key.
1v1? this is an MMO remember?

This isn't RDR or GTAV where 1v1 means anything.

You will miss a DK tank in a group when he is nerfed into oblivion.

Spangla · December 2014

Actually i'm quite happy now thanks just trying to ask a simple question without people getting overly defensive and angry.

Just like when bash was nerfed anyone who suggested it was op was evil. However it clearly was.

I am yet to be convinced by anyone that talons does not deserve a CC timer.

Please enlighten me

Nihil · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

Not what this discussion is about frankly so don't care.

Please stay on topic.

Actually what I wrote has 100 % correlation with the current topic being discusses as you are trying to change how a specific CC mechanic work and thus if it is changed the CC would have to still be in balance with the other effects.

Using Stun as the base line for CC's, This would give us that CC's should be blockable, Have a short duration, stop movement, stop attacks, and is breakable and gives immunity afterwards.

Fear (current state as I can't say if blocking while feared is intended), have all of those but is not blockable, but also allows players who are CCed to block.

Disorients, are similar to stuns, but have a long duration so are then broken on damage (don't think a fair trade off personally)

Roots, gives up restrictions on attacks but also removes immunity and tend to have a slightly longer duration, and are not blockable.

Snares, similar to root, but gives up stopping movement for just restricting movement, but also can't be broken out of, and is normally tied to an average damaging attack (and thus blockable tho).

You want to change the mechanics on one of these so I wanted you to lay out the foundation for what you would define be the defining aspects of CC's. As each one of these CC's work differently then the next and sometimes break aspects that players would define as essential for CC's.

I want you to support your claim that roots should have immunities tied to them by giving my an argument other then "It should be because everything else does" or "This one root is to strong so nerf all roots". I am not mad, or being defensive, I am just trying to have a debate with someone about an aspect of the game and trying to give my reasoning on why I think things are the way they are.

Sublime · December 2014

Why should it deserve a CC timer? I'm trying to not state my opinion and ask about some more details.

Merlight · December 2014

woodsro wrote: »

I used to use encase in pvp, but it costs too much and its bugged and don't always work. I have seen it bug in pve too requiring 2 cast to get it to work on trash mobs.

This. It's nearly impossible to hit in the regular pvp lagfest, and even in relatively smooth situations it occassionally doesn't render - sometimes it's a miss despite where you see your victim, sometimes they stand still and you wonder why... put it off my bar, too

Joy_Division · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

Actually i'm quite happy now thanks just trying to ask a simple question without people getting overly defensive and angry.

Just like when bash was nerfed anyone who suggested it was op was evil. However it clearly was.

I am yet to be convinced by anyone that talons does not deserve a CC timer.

Please enlighten me

People have told you why. Talons is not a "hard" control that does not prevent your character from doing most things...the only thing you can't do is move.

Fear, which you brought up earlier as a comparable is *not* comparable because it is a "hard" control. When I am feared I cannot attack and I am forcibly moved in the opposite direction in which I want to go.

Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it's not valid.

Draxys · December 2014

If purge stays the way it is, we need a root immunity. If they ever fix it, no root immunity. My group experiences a ton of people spamming roots and our options to fight against that are limited. Dodging has high cost unless you wear full medium, which is still subpar for group builds (plus you can be rooted again as soon as your feet hit the ground). Retreating maneuver is not an option in the midst of a big fight due to the importance of stamina for immovable and blocking, and also the need to kill enemies since it ends when you attack. Purge working correctly would be nice so we actually had a viable counter to root spam, but a lot of organized groups are spamming walls and other things that make you blow up when using purge (there are a few more things than just wall).

themizario · December 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Can someone explain why these have no immunity?

It is irrelevant that they are roots - they still control you and they still need to be broken like any other effect.

Why should I have to roll dodge 4 times instantly against any dk yet they only have to break my cc once in a blue moon?

you are very right they should provide immunity.

but DK talons are HARDLY the only root in the game... just the most commonly used thanks to the easy "anything close to you" mechanics..

ever go against a smart Sorc and you probably would end up hating Encase just as much.

^^^This, went against a sorc who used encase as much as talons. Not complaining it's a valid tactic.

Just love how everyone is so quick to NERF dk skills before even considering anything else.

themizario · December 2014

In addition OP. Kite DK's because of talons and banner. You probably stand in talons and banner trying to fight DK

dharbert · December 2014

themizario wrote: »

In addition OP. Kite DK's because of talons and banner. You probably stand in talons and banner trying to fight DK

Now you messed up. Don't even mention taking on a DK at range or this will turn into a reflective scales nerf thread. Basically, players will whine about any and every skill a DK has.

Sleep · December 2014

Because Dragons are awesome.

david.haypreub18_ESO · December 2014

The essential problem is that it usually takes more resources to counter Talons than it does to use it, which is the definition of overpowered.

For a Templar, you are looking at Cleansing Ritual and its morphs. If you are a little slow or experience some lag, you're going to be immobilized for a bit and take some damage. Even if you cleanse immediately after getting hit with Talons, you are going to take some damage from the DoT. You might think this is close to a draw, with the DK casting the spell and you casting the counter. But in fact you've already lost: firstly because you've had to put a skill on your bar just to counter this one skill; secondly because you've also spent time in combat countering that the DK has for attacking; and thirdly because you've only saved yourself. The two other people the DK has Taloned ALSO have to cast a counter. So in the grand scheme of things, the DK has forced up to three people to play defense while he can keep attacking... and he has spent 1/3 of the resources the other three people have spent collectively. The DK always comes out ahead.

If you're not a Templar, things are even worse. You are looking at Purge, which has a much higher cost (virtually twice the cost) than Talons unless you go Efficient Purge, in which case you give up the heal, and the DK always comes out ahead because he's done some damage to you and anyone else nearby already (not much damage, admittedly, but combat is a game of resources and every one counts). You also have to get to rank 4 in PvP before you can even take the skill, much less morph it, so I do pity those people trying PvP for the first time and having to counter Talons. Again, the DK comes out ahead.

That's essentially the problem. Pushing a single button allows the DK to start pulling ahead in the resource-race that is combat, and there are very few cases where other classes can start to come out ahead. It is not impossible to beat a DK, and there are ways to fight against Talons... but almost all of them involve you giving up more than the DK does. And that, my friends, is the very definition of overpowered.

Sublime · December 2014

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The essential problem is that it usually takes more resources to counter Talons than it does to use it, which is the definition of overpowered.

For a Templar, you are looking at Cleansing Ritual and its morphs. If you are a little slow or experience some lag, you're going to be immobilized for a bit and take some damage. Even if you cleanse immediately after getting hit with Talons, you are going to take some damage from the DoT. You might think this is close to a draw, with the DK casting the spell and you casting the counter. But in fact you've already lost: firstly because you've had to put a skill on your bar just to counter this one skill; secondly because you've also spent time in combat countering that the DK has for attacking; and thirdly because you've only saved yourself. The two other people the DK has Taloned ALSO have to cast a counter. So in the grand scheme of things, the DK has forced up to three people to play defense while he can keep attacking... and he has spent 1/3 of the resources the other three people have spent collectively. The DK always comes out ahead.

If you're not a Templar, things are even worse. You are looking at Purge, which has a much higher cost (virtually twice the cost) than Talons unless you go Efficient Purge, in which case you give up the heal, and the DK always comes out ahead because he's done some damage to you and anyone else nearby already (not much damage, admittedly, but combat is a game of resources and every one counts). You also have to get to rank 4 in PvP before you can even take the skill, much less morph it, so I do pity those people trying PvP for the first time and having to counter Talons. Again, the DK comes out ahead.

That's essentially the problem. Pushing a single button allows the DK to start pulling ahead in the resource-race that is combat, and there are very few cases where other classes can start to come out ahead. It is not impossible to beat a DK, and there are ways to fight against Talons... but almost all of them involve you giving up more than the DK does. And that, my friends, is the very definition of overpowered.

First off: Nice post.

I'm not yet convinced by your definition of overpowered, because of the following: is a skill only overpowered if it costs more to remove it or also if it costs removes more than it costs? I.e. does the removing and applying have to cost exactly the same?

Now about the strenght of Talons: you used purge as your example to remove talons. Purge however removes two debuffs and reduces the remaing ones to 50% duration, so it does more than just remove talons. Additionally the cost reduction morph puts its cost equal with the one of talons and the other one heals for 18% if it removes a debuff, so it basically removes all effects talons has done.

That was for 1v1 in group fights however only one player has to use purge, to remove talons from all targets and since it has the same cost as talons (with the cost redution morph), so the group of 3 players will in the end have 1/3 of the expense compared to the caster, in terms of max ressources. Yes both teams use X magicka but the talon user has 2/3 less total magicka than the other Players so the X magicka are more meaningful to him than to the group.

As of now they key of PvP is to have the correct skill setup against your enemy/-ies, and that's where the problem lies in my eyes, DK's have setups which allow them to go against most forms of enemies, on top of that they have some rather powerfull class ombos and profit rather strongly from blockcasting. Now while a single one of those would not make the DK op, since other classes have them as well, all of them togerther make it rather strong. It's however not like they are completely op, just slightly. (no irony).

To come back to talons, I do not think that the effect itself is too strong, since most of the classes have similar skills with sometimes better effects. What is strong however is that it can be used without hesitation and aiming, which means it consumes less time and the player can use more time on other stuff. Meaning the nerf ZOS did was in the right direction but not correct, mostly because it can still be used without hesitation.

So what change would I suggest? Well it has to include aiming, but the current AOE itself is not too strong, one can however not be changed without affecting the other, so the AOE has to be changed without nerfing it. I suggest to keep the size (m^2) of the AOE but make it a cone in front of the player, so that it basically roots everything the character "sees", but nothing behind him. A 120° would be worth trying out, I think.

Sorry for the length.

Spangla · December 2014

Joy_Division wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Actually i'm quite happy now thanks just trying to ask a simple question without people getting overly defensive and angry.

Just like when bash was nerfed anyone who suggested it was op was evil. However it clearly was.

I am yet to be convinced by anyone that talons does not deserve a CC timer.

Please enlighten me

People have told you why. Talons is not a "hard" control that does not prevent your character from doing most things...the only thing you can't do is move.

Fear, which you brought up earlier as a comparable is *not* comparable because it is a "hard" control. When I am feared I cannot attack and I am forcibly moved in the opposite direction in which I want to go.

Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it's not valid.

How you can say this with a straight face? Actually I like your opinion as it makes me chuckle.

So your are saying that: Fear = Walking in the wrong direction and not being able to attack for a short amount of time is as detrimental as Talons: not being able to move, whilst taking damage and potentially receiving a high damage synergy attack.

Really? Highly amusing.

Spangla · December 2014

themizario wrote: »

In addition OP. Kite DK's because of talons and banner. You probably stand in talons and banner trying to fight DK

Yes well done you've nearly picked up on the problem. Shield charge Talon combo. Repeat over and over.

Problem is it takes more stamina to counter this combo than it does to use it.

So yes eventually you do end up standing in the 5th or 6th talon that you cant break because you've broken 5 already and eating a banner.

Wonderful.

Spangla · December 2014

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The essential problem is that it usually takes more resources to counter Talons than it does to use it, which is the definition of overpowered.

For a Templar, you are looking at Cleansing Ritual and its morphs. If you are a little slow or experience some lag, you're going to be immobilized for a bit and take some damage. Even if you cleanse immediately after getting hit with Talons, you are going to take some damage from the DoT. You might think this is close to a draw, with the DK casting the spell and you casting the counter. But in fact you've already lost: firstly because you've had to put a skill on your bar just to counter this one skill; secondly because you've also spent time in combat countering that the DK has for attacking; and thirdly because you've only saved yourself. The two other people the DK has Taloned ALSO have to cast a counter. So in the grand scheme of things, the DK has forced up to three people to play defense while he can keep attacking... and he has spent 1/3 of the resources the other three people have spent collectively. The DK always comes out ahead.

If you're not a Templar, things are even worse. You are looking at Purge, which has a much higher cost (virtually twice the cost) than Talons unless you go Efficient Purge, in which case you give up the heal, and the DK always comes out ahead because he's done some damage to you and anyone else nearby already (not much damage, admittedly, but combat is a game of resources and every one counts). You also have to get to rank 4 in PvP before you can even take the skill, much less morph it, so I do pity those people trying PvP for the first time and having to counter Talons. Again, the DK comes out ahead.

That's essentially the problem. Pushing a single button allows the DK to start pulling ahead in the resource-race that is combat, and there are very few cases where other classes can start to come out ahead. It is not impossible to beat a DK, and there are ways to fight against Talons... but almost all of them involve you giving up more than the DK does. And that, my friends, is the very definition of overpowered.

Exactly. Unfortunately disagreeing with this puts you in the ostrich club imo.

Merlight · December 2014

Sublime wrote: »

So what change would I suggest? Well it has to include aiming, but the current AOE itself is not too strong, one can however not be changed without affecting the other, so the AOE has to be changed without nerfing it. I suggest to keep the size (m^2) of the AOE but make it a cone in front of the player, so that it basically roots everything the character "sees", but nothing behind him. A 120° would be worth trying out, I think.

Look at Sorc's Encase. It's range is a long strip in front of the player (15x4m if I'm not mistaken), yet it's rarely used in Cyrodiil, and I think it's essentially because of the aiming requirement. It takes a good player with no latency/fps issues at all to be effective. The change you propose would warrant DK rage of great proportions

Honestly I'd rather see Encase "fixed" than Talons nerfed.

Sublime · December 2014

Merlight wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

So what change would I suggest? Well it has to include aiming, but the current AOE itself is not too strong, one can however not be changed without affecting the other, so the AOE has to be changed without nerfing it. I suggest to keep the size (m^2) of the AOE but make it a cone in front of the player, so that it basically roots everything the character "sees", but nothing behind him. A 120° would be worth trying out, I think.

Look at Sorc's Encase. It's range is a long strip in front of the player (15x4m if I'm not mistaken), yet it's rarely used in Cyrodiil, and I think it's essentially because of the aiming requirement. It takes a good player with no latency/fps issues at all to be effective. The change you propose would warrant DK rage of great proportions Honestly I'd rather see Encase "fixed" than Talons nerfed.

That's why I suggested a 120° cone instead of a straight quadrant, which is extremely hard to land. The basic idea is that it hit's everybody, who's at least more or less in front of the DK, what the exact form is doesn't matter.

Encase would still be weaker ofc, because of it's mana cost and it's non-existing damage. The snare is nice but often does not matter.

Islyn · December 2014

Sharee wrote: »

Well technically, they don't need to be broken. Except for movement, you still have complete control of your character. Sometimes i just ignore them and continue to DPS the DK at close range.

Yep. I think claws' main thing is they make people panic.

They magically disappear when their caster dies, though.

david.haypreub18_ESO · December 2014

I agree to a large extent with what you are saying Sublime. I think that the ease of not having to target with Talons is one of the main reasons why many people say it is simply easier to play a DK than the other classes. I think you could also make it an AoE target like the Templar Spear Shards, which would at least require a bit of skill on the DKs part.

I also agree with you about the fact that the DKs seem to have a relatively easy answer to every problem. Talons itself would not be so bad if the DK didn't have Scales to force you into melee range for Talons. And the combination of Talons + Banner is also very easy (imagine if Templars had Talons + Nova, for example!).

I'm not sure what the best solution is, and you make some good suggestions. Whatever happens, I just think that either Talons needs to be changed or the other classes need to have combinations that are as easy and powerful if the game is to be truly balanced across all classes.

Sandmanninja · December 2014

Stop picking on DKs. Learn to take the talon damage the way ZOS intends you to....
-a DK