Heavy Armor Improvements

Bashev · June 2014

@ZoS, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ , @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Any successful build in the game depends on the resource management. That's why everybody wear a dress. With the new changes of medium armor (stamina reduction added) we will have 2 different options to maintain our resources, one for stamina one for magicka. I would like to propose some changes for the heavy armor passives.

1. Resolve (3) - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. + increase armor and spell soft cap with 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
Max bonuses: 21%% Armor, 21% Spell Resist, 21% armor soft cap increase.

A tank with full heavy armor set will have soft cap of the armor at 51% damage reduction and hard cap of the armor at 71% damage reduction.

Constitution (2) - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

2. New Constitution (2) - 4% (for each piece of heavy armor equipped) of the damage received is returned as Stamina.
Max bonuses: 28% of the damage received will be returned as stamina

Most of the time when a player block normal attacks the damage is between 70-110 damage. Average stamina cost per block with some passives is between 70-120 stamina. With max 28% passives that means the block cost will be reduced with 28 stamina and it will cost around 40-90 stamina per block. A big unblocked attack will do damage between 400-800 and it will restore stamina between 112 - 224.

Juggernaut (2) - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

3. New Juggernaut (2) - 4% (for each piece of heavy armor equipped) of the damage received is returned as Magicka.
Max bonuses: 28% of the damage received will be returned as stamina

Most of the time when a player block normal attacks the damage is between 70-110 damage. With max 28% passives that means for a blocked attack we will recover 19.6- 30.8 magicka. A big unblocked attack will do damage between 400-800 and it will restore magicka between 112 - 224.

Bracing (2) - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
This is a well designed passive. We will change as:

4. Bracing (2) - Decreases cost of blocking by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
Max bonuses: 21% block cost reduction

Rapid mending (2) - Increases healing received by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

5. New Rapid mending (2) - When a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped 2% of the damage received is returned as Ultimate.

The numbers can be adjusted, but the main ideas is: players in heavy armor should generate resources when they take damage. Please feel free to give your opinion and any new ideas.

Usually a normal skill (any cost reduction) requires between 380-420 magicka. With 2000 magicka you can cast a skill between 5-6 times and after that you are useless.

TL;DR Some proposals for improvements of the heavy armor passives based on the idea that players with heavy armor should take damage and percentage of the taken damage should be returned as resources.

Turelus · June 2014

This is a perfect example of the kind of threads we should be seeing on the forums, a list of what you see are issues and ideas of how to improve them.
+1 awesome to you sir and please stay on these forums.

Mumyo · June 2014

I think u are right with some points because the benefits from heavy armor are indeed a bit sucky compared to light especially.

But those changes are maybe too strong, i allready got lots of issues getting a tank down but that may have to do with their class (Dragonknights).

And indeed the juggernaut is completely useless^^

In PVP i guess those changes would be too strong.
I like the idea

pinstripesc · June 2014

I like the idea of taking damage = benefits, it encourages different styles of play from armour type to armour type.

whsprwind · June 2014

I agree, good ideas there but the figures definitely need a little tuning.

As a DK heavy armor wearer i can probably stay alive forever because of magicka procs -> GDB and ultimate procs -> battle roar + magma armor (gosh)

I'm already pretty hard to take down in pvp, to be honest but still something needs to be done with those ridiculously low soft caps

Aett_Thorn · June 2014

Quite honestly, I feel like Light and Medium Armors should be for resource management, and Heavy Armor should be for survivability. That being said, having NO resource management in the Heavy Armor line is probably a mistake, considering everything that you need resources for in this game. Still, a Heavy Armor-wearing character shouldn't be able to keep up the offensive assault that people wearing the other two armor types should be able to. Heavy Armor should be more about mitigation and the ability to keep chugging away.

Now, I am assuming that the Devs really don't want to change the hard caps that they have in for armor (which I disagree with, but am going to assume for this post). So here is how I would see the changes to the line (along with maybe an extra fix or two):

1) Immovable: First off, the active power for all armor types should be limited so that you can only use it when wearing 4-5+ of that type of armor, so that you can't just level up the line, and use the power with none of that armor type equipped.

Secondly, since many Heavy Armor wearers are already at the soft or even hard cap of Armor, adding more armor from this power is completely redundant. As such, I would change this to create a damage shield on the player while keeping the CC immunity. Then make the morphs either increase the strength of the damage shield or the duration per heavy armor piece equipped.

2) Resolve: Just make the spell resistance equal to the armor gain. It's not like spell damage is that much rarer in this game than physical attacks, so just make them even.

3) Constitution: Either a) merge current Constitution and Rapid Mending into a single passive, or b) change it to add a fixed % of passive dodge (deflection) per piece of heavy armor equipped.

4) Juggernaut: Change it to something along the lines of: Upon hit, restore X% Stamina and Magika per piece of heavy armor equipped. Even a chance per hit would be fine if the gains were there.

5) Rapid Mending:: Depending on what was done with Constitution, either remove this ability, or merge with current Constitution but add an effect that raises the passive healing regen cap.

If removed, replace with an ability that adds a HoT per heavy armor piece equipped whenever a healing power or potion is used on the character.

6) Bracing: Should reduce the stamina cost of all defensive maneuvers. To include Blocking, Dodging, and CC break.

Or: Should increase AoE damage resistance, if that is possible in this game. Might allow Heavy Armor characters to stay in otherwise instant-death red patches.

NobleX35 · June 2014

Interesting ideas, I made a similar post on armor improvements as well. Here's my link to my suggestions.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111591/armor-passives-and-imbalance#latest

Bashev · June 2014

whsprwind wrote: »

I agree, good ideas there but the figures definitely need a little tuning.

As a DK heavy armor wearer i can probably stay alive forever because of magicka procs -> GDB and ultimate procs -> battle roar + magma armor (gosh)

I'm already pretty hard to take down in pvp, to be honest but still something needs to be done with those ridiculously low soft caps

I play DK too, and curently I am with 7 light and a shield, (Dragon, Magicka furnace and seducer sets). GDB costs 340 magicka reduced from 450. In battles every 5 seconds usually a mele hit me and I generate 190 magicka + I have 90 magicka recovery. For 5 seconds I restore 190 + 225 = 415 Magicka.

With the proposed passives in order to restore 415 Magicka I should take 1469 damage. This is half of my blood. I cannot restore the lost health with one GDB(450 Magicka).

It is possible that it can be OP with these numbers but they can be adjusted. I just like the idea that by taking damage and loosing health you can generate other resources. Because without resources you cannot play and we will continue to wear dresses.

stumpy999 · June 2014

Wut all dis nummerz grot!

I wants my eavy metal, heavy, and orky

Mowahr green!

Bashev · July 2014

Another idea, at least for PvP, Bracing - adds 50% chance to block AoE damage.

CapuchinSeven · July 2014

I like the idea of adding Ultimate when hit.

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

Just so you all know, there is a change on the PTS to heavy armor passive Juggernaut, adding to the increased melee damage a bonus cost reduction to cc-breaking, 4% per piece worn. Make a heavy armor Arena set and you've got a pretty ridiculously low cc break cost.

To those posting on this thread for heavy armor changes: Go on the PTS and test it, then come back with feedback. Continuing to post without the implications of the current changes in progress in mind may lead to unrealistic proposals. Cheers.

Bashev · July 2014

First I tested it.
Second the topic is before the changes.
Third who use heavy armor - tanks, they block all the time so they are almost resisted to cc except fear. Why they need this new addition to the skill?

Thejollygreenone · July 2014

Bashev wrote: »

First I tested it.
Second the topic is before the changes.
Third who use heavy armor - tanks, they block all the time so they are almost resisted to cc except fear. Why they need this new addition to the skill?

Yeah I'd actually agree that this passive isn't exactly what they need. Imo it would be better served in the medium armor tree, but maybe that's just me being a bit selfish

But even for a full heavy armor+1h/shield pvper, breaking through to cc them is the only way to get them down in a timely manner. This I assume is aimed to increase their defensiveness in that fashion.

Beyond that, I think it's also a change to make heavy armor non-tanks more viable in pvp. Meaning heavy armor users who don't choose 1h/shield.

While I think the bonus may be better used elsewhere and that heavy armor could use something better instead, if I were a heavy armor user I'd still keep this change readily in mind when discussing changes to heavy armor.

And while you personally have tested and knew about it, others may not have specifically because the topic is before the changes. Which is why I brought it up.

Cheers, happy discussing.

Bashev · July 2014

In my opinion the game mechanics depend heavily on resources. If you do not have resources you cannot dps, heal or tank both pvp/pve. Medium armor lacked stamina reduction and also that there is no skills or sets which returns stamina as magicka furnace, warlock and syrabane. Still the best resource management armor is the light and you have no penalties for that.

Paladin_echo1 · July 2014

Bashev wrote: »

In my opinion the game mechanics depend heavily on resources. If you do not have resources you cannot dps, heal or tank both pvp/pve. Medium armor lacked stamina reduction and also that there is no skills or sets which returns stamina as magicka furnace, warlock and syrabane. Still the best resource management armor is the light and you have no penalties for that.

I think that heavy armor should be more of a burden on your enemy rather than a burden on you. Add a decent amount of damage reflection and recovery.

Whats up with the ZOS names in the title of this thread? I am kinda confused. Thought this was something being considered or something. Currently the penalty for wearing NO armor is not enough and the benefits of wearing full heavy armor are incredibly worth near nothing. There should be a greater difference between having armor and having no armor rather than grinding with 0 armor having just about the same effect as having a full set of heavy armor.

Recently I grinded a character from Level 1 to V1 with 0 Armor stat over 90% of the time. The 10% being when I wanted to train on new sets. I challenge someone from ZOS to comment on this.

CaptainSilverbrow · July 2014

Bashev wrote: »

First I tested it.
Second the topic is before the changes.
Third who use heavy armor - tanks, they block all the time so they are almost resisted to cc except fear. Why they need this new addition to the skill?

Because Heavy Armor is not a tanking tree any more than Light Armor is; it should be designed in such a way as to offer optimal tanking and alternative DPS styles, just as LA does for tanking, DPS, and healing alone. The changes they need to be (and are somewhat) focusing on are more HA DPS-oriented.

Edit:

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

I think that heavy armor should be more of a burden on your enemy rather than a burden on you. Add a decent amount of damage reflection and recovery.

[snip]

Recently I grinded a character from Level 1 to V1 with 0 Armor stat over 90% of the time. The 10% being when I wanted to train on new sets. I challenge someone from ZOS to comment on this.

You know, on that very subject (upon which I agree with you), here's a discussion thread on Heavy Armor improvements in the PTS board:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/115908/skill-change-request-s-heavy-armor-skill-tree/p1

Stx · July 2014

All that is needed to make Heavy Armor viable is a boost to the amount of healing you gain, and a small amount of resources returned when you are struck in combat.

ArnoTerranova · September 2014

nice ideas +1

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130276/discussion-heavy-armor#latest

Just felt that I should link that in here.

Imp666 · September 2014

Seen so many good threads with suggestions on changes to Heavy Armour but they have all been ignored. So tired of being ignored, in a game that could have been great but is going downhill all these months.

Still_Mind · October 2014

Very good post, OP. I, too, feel like heavy armour users should get a *lot* more out of getting hit.

But I also feel that heavy could use a mechanic similar to Vampire's Undeath - the lower your health, the greater your damage reduction (non-armour\magic resistance, ofc so that it's not subject to penetration).

Francescolg · November 2014

They should remove the + armor and +spell resistance and insert another useful bonus for it.
There are too many ways to push armor and spell resistance making it nothing exclusive to heavy armor. Therefore, is meaningless to have it as armor bonus, when so many other factors guarantee armor+resistance at soft cap.

TheLaw · November 2014

Mostly good. I like the +healing though (although usless as is). Overall, this really makes heavyarmor worthwhile.

alexj4596b14_ESO · November 2014

Bashev wrote: »

@ZoS, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ , @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Any successful build in the game depends on the resource management. That's why everybody wear a dress. With the new changes of medium armor (stamina reduction added) we will have 2 different options to maintain our resources, one for stamina one for magicka. I would like to propose some changes for the heavy armor passives.

1. Resolve (3) - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. + increase armor and spell soft cap with 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
Max bonuses: 21%% Armor, 21% Spell Resist, 21% armor soft cap increase.

A tank with full heavy armor set will have soft cap of the armor at 51% damage reduction and hard cap of the armor at 71% damage reduction.

Constitution (2) - Increases Armor by 3% and base Spell Resist by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

2. New Constitution (2) - 4% (for each piece of heavy armor equipped) of the damage received is returned as Stamina.
Max bonuses: 28% of the damage received will be returned as stamina

Most of the time when a player block normal attacks the damage is between 70-110 damage. Average stamina cost per block with some passives is between 70-120 stamina. With max 28% passives that means the block cost will be reduced with 28 stamina and it will cost around 40-90 stamina per block. A big unblocked attack will do damage between 400-800 and it will restore stamina between 112 - 224.

Juggernaut (2) - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

3. New Juggernaut (2) - 4% (for each piece of heavy armor equipped) of the damage received is returned as Magicka.
Max bonuses: 28% of the damage received will be returned as stamina

Most of the time when a player block normal attacks the damage is between 70-110 damage. With max 28% passives that means for a blocked attack we will recover 19.6- 30.8 magicka. A big unblocked attack will do damage between 400-800 and it will restore magicka between 112 - 224.

Bracing (2) - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
This is a well designed passive. We will change as:

4. Bracing (2) - Decreases cost of blocking by 3% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
Max bonuses: 21% block cost reduction

Rapid mending (2) - Increases healing received by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. - Useless

5. New Rapid mending (2) - When a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped 2% of the damage received is returned as Ultimate.

The numbers can be adjusted, but the main ideas is: players in heavy armor should generate resources when they take damage. Please feel free to give your opinion and any new ideas.

Usually a normal skill (any cost reduction) requires between 380-420 magicka. With 2000 magicka you can cast a skill between 5-6 times and after that you are useless.

TL;DR Some proposals for improvements of the heavy armor passives based on the idea that players with heavy armor should take damage and percentage of the taken damage should be returned as resources.

I also like this myself, but like others have said it may be too strong. IF you equip 2 sets of conditions too it I think it will be fine. One you can get the max that you suggested if you have onehanded and board sloted, and if you have any other weapon you get half of that.

Helluin · November 2014

As I wrote in another topic, imho there could be also additional changements to emphasise an improvement of heavy armor and making it more desiderable for who wants to play a character more resistant both in PvE and in PvP.

Light armor should be all around magicka as it is but with a poor defense (removing some benefits to spell resistance or lowering those and buffing the ability).
Medium armor should be around stamina as it is but with a medium defense (maybe some changements on the ability can be good; speed buff shouldn't stack while in stealth or it simply should have a cap; in future Thieves Guild can provide a similar passive bonus to the Vampire one but these shouldn't stack).
Finally Heavy Armor should be around health more than it is now and with the best defense in game.

Armor abilities should become usable only while wearing enough pieces of the related armor.

Impenetrable trait should change from reduce critical chances into reduce critical damage.
For balancement reasons then it should be added a cap of X% to critical chances and a passive skill on heavy armor (per piece of heavy armor used) to reduce critical chances or critical damage or both.