So oil pots are quickly becoming useless thanks to a bug

Agrippa_Invisus

Infraction wrote: »

I doubt anyone is getting banned for it but it's trivializing Cyrodill as it gains momentum in usage.

Sadly, I feel you are correct in both respects.

It should be hotfixed -- TODAY -- and then bans should start hammering accounts.

bitaken

Infraction wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

An Exploit is using broken game mechanics to bypass legitimate game interaction and gain more EXP loot AP etc. I do not believe this is an exploit. I believe it's a broken mechanic....but not an exploit. Why is it the players using an ability in an area where they are supposed to use them....is an exploit? Discovering how they behave...how do the players know they are not intended to work this way?

This problem...is either A) working as intended (sorcerer's can dispel caltrops, so with a little co-ordination...boom baby!) and let's face it PvP is all about co-ordination, or a Bug that is on the list. It's truly a layer issue as I see it. With caltrops down the siege weapons hit the caltrops first. Since that layer has infinite hit points....no damage gets thru to players.

Though, it's possible, the game developers haven't seen this before as in the Beta it was probably not real easy to get to a high enough assault rank to get caltrops.

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

You know you just defined the whole thing in your first statement. Do you really think caltrops are intended to nullify all damage? Why would they even add a siege shield if that's the case.

As you said utilizing something that is clearly not intended for benefit is an exploit. Quit being so obtuse.

I guess you had trouble in eight grade reading classes then? You see me saying I think it's a broken mechanic. You also see me saying players are using caltrops WHERE they are supposed to be using Caltrops. Right?

Dev's have commented at this point that it is in fact a bug. I said in my OP that it may be a bug and that it was likely an oversight to layering because not many people in the AvA beta's got to a high enough rank to acquire and utilize caltrops in AvA.

Now:

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äb-/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand

Where am I slow to understand or annoyingly insensitive? Everyone can currently utilize Caltrops in the manner being described - and there are counters - which I gave you one of many. How is it that you fail to understand they cannot ban anyone - do you see me asking not to get banned? Let them ban me - and everyone else who is doing it - and then watch the game go FTP with some Pay to Win sales items on the website.

Really...obtuse?

No. Not obtuse.

Infraction

bitaken wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

An Exploit is using broken game mechanics to bypass legitimate game interaction and gain more EXP loot AP etc. I do not believe this is an exploit. I believe it's a broken mechanic....but not an exploit. Why is it the players using an ability in an area where they are supposed to use them....is an exploit? Discovering how they behave...how do the players know they are not intended to work this way?

This problem...is either A) working as intended (sorcerer's can dispel caltrops, so with a little co-ordination...boom baby!) and let's face it PvP is all about co-ordination, or a Bug that is on the list. It's truly a layer issue as I see it. With caltrops down the siege weapons hit the caltrops first. Since that layer has infinite hit points....no damage gets thru to players.

Though, it's possible, the game developers haven't seen this before as in the Beta it was probably not real easy to get to a high enough assault rank to get caltrops.

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

You know you just defined the whole thing in your first statement. Do you really think caltrops are intended to nullify all damage? Why would they even add a siege shield if that's the case.

As you said utilizing something that is clearly not intended for benefit is an exploit. Quit being so obtuse.

I guess you had trouble in eight grade reading classes then? You see me saying I think it's a broken mechanic. You also see me saying players are using caltrops WHERE they are supposed to be using Caltrops. Right?

Dev's have commented at this point that it is in fact a bug. I said in my OP that it may be a bug and that it was likely an oversight to layering because not many people in the AvA beta's got to a high enough rank to acquire and utilize caltrops in AvA.

Now:

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äb-/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand

Where am I slow to understand or annoyingly insensitive? Everyone can currently utilize Caltrops in the manner being described - and there are counters - which I gave you one of many. How is it that you fail to understand they cannot ban anyone - do you see me asking not to get banned? Let them ban me - and everyone else who is doing it - and then watch the game go FTP with some Pay to Win sales items on the website.

Really...obtuse?

No. Not obtuse.

You are so obtuse you don't even know it.

You'll notice I never mentioned anything about banning other than people won't be. That doesn't mean I think people should be banned so calm down junior.

Lowbei

nobody is getting banned lol. you remind me of the people who report scroll carriers for not going where they want

Igolbug

I was watching a stream where the leader was clearly saying "need caltrops in front of us so siege can't hit" you are going to tell me that they are not exploiting?

Tintinabula

These ppl are getting free kills..free buffs...free ap and denying others ap (I notice a severe lack of receiving ap with siege when the enemy does this)

nukeyoo

bitaken wrote: »

An Exploit is using broken game mechanics to bypass legitimate game interaction and gain more EXP loot AP etc. I do not believe this is an exploit. I believe it's a broken mechanic....but not an exploit.

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Infraction wrote: »

You know you just defined the whole thing in your first statement.

As you said utilizing something that is clearly not intended for benefit is an exploit. Quit being so obtuse.

bitaken wrote: »

I guess you had trouble in eight grade reading classes then? You see me saying I think it's a broken mechanic.

Dev's have commented at this point that it is in fact a bug.

Now:

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äb-/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand

Where am I slow to understand or annoyingly insensitive?

Really...obtuse?

No. Not obtuse

Okay try to keep up. You explain that using bugged mechanics to bypass content to gain EXP and/or AP IS AN EXPLOIT. You say you think it is a bugged mechanic, BUT not a exploit.

Infraction points out that YOU yourself just described the use being an exploit. Bugged mechanic = caltrops; Bypass content = siege equipment; Gain XP/AP = take objective/kill players.

Wikipedia wrote:

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We can confirm there is currently a bug with Caltrops.

Yes. Yes obtuse.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

bitaken wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

An Exploit is using broken game mechanics to bypass legitimate game interaction and gain more EXP loot AP etc. I do not believe this is an exploit. I believe it's a broken mechanic....but not an exploit. Why is it the players using an ability in an area where they are supposed to use them....is an exploit? Discovering how they behave...how do the players know they are not intended to work this way?

This problem...is either A) working as intended (sorcerer's can dispel caltrops, so with a little co-ordination...boom baby!) and let's face it PvP is all about co-ordination, or a Bug that is on the list. It's truly a layer issue as I see it. With caltrops down the siege weapons hit the caltrops first. Since that layer has infinite hit points....no damage gets thru to players.

Though, it's possible, the game developers haven't seen this before as in the Beta it was probably not real easy to get to a high enough assault rank to get caltrops.

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

You know you just defined the whole thing in your first statement. Do you really think caltrops are intended to nullify all damage? Why would they even add a siege shield if that's the case.

As you said utilizing something that is clearly not intended for benefit is an exploit. Quit being so obtuse.

I guess you had trouble in eight grade reading classes then? You see me saying I think it's a broken mechanic. You also see me saying players are using caltrops WHERE they are supposed to be using Caltrops. Right?

Dev's have commented at this point that it is in fact a bug. I said in my OP that it may be a bug and that it was likely an oversight to layering because not many people in the AvA beta's got to a high enough rank to acquire and utilize caltrops in AvA.

Now:

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äb-/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand

Where am I slow to understand or annoyingly insensitive? Everyone can currently utilize Caltrops in the manner being described - and there are counters - which I gave you one of many. How is it that you fail to understand they cannot ban anyone - do you see me asking not to get banned? Let them ban me - and everyone else who is doing it - and then watch the game go FTP with some Pay to Win sales items on the website.

Really...obtuse?

No. Not obtuse.

Love how people give nullifying field as counter to any ground based spammable. You realize it costs the sorc ultimate points to cast it right? Its not something you can spam out of your whim. The siege engines are hard to land in the first place due to the so obvious and easy to move out of red circles.

This is ruining the pvp and you trying to say 'there are counters' is laughable. Were you meybe thinking of chain pulling that group sitting in friendly caltrops 1 by 1 and then spam them with shield bash so you make sure they do not move/recast the calltrops...all this while you keep running to your siege weapon and back?

Its also laughable how ZoS is dealing with the issue...we will hotfix it...in the distant future...riiiiight...

kewl

@nukeyoo‌ Well put sir, well put.

bitaken

I don't believe it's an exploit because EVERYONE can do it right now - until the broken mechanic is fixed. So - we are all on an equal footing. This is a PvP only concern - and since all players can use caltrops in this fashion - well we are all on an equal playing field. What's wrong about that? No more oil farms on the Alessia bridge? OHNOES!!! No more defending towers with 4 oil pots on the ground floor? OHNOES!!!

There should be a counter to everything. The use of oil in this game - the way it is being used on the same level as the player controlling the oil - is just as broken a mechanic. Siege shield...yeah ok. There are specific abilities meant to be "anti siege" but let's face it groups have figured out ways to utilize siege in ways it's not really meant to be used in order to overpower people who don't pay attention.

Sorry, it's broken and yes a broken mechanic - but no one has an "unfair advantage" so let's talk some more about why exploiting and broken are different things.

If it's broken and everyone can do it - who has an unfair advantage?

If it's broken and only a select few can do it - well, that's exploiting.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

bitaken wrote: »

I don't believe it's an exploit because EVERYONE can do it right now - until the broken mechanic is fixed. So - we are all on an equal footing. This is a PvP only concern - and since all players can use caltrops in this fashion - well we are all on an equal playing field. What's wrong about that? No more oil farms on the Alessia bridge? OHNOES!!! No more defending towers with 4 oil pots on the ground floor? OHNOES!!!

There should be a counter to everything. The use of oil in this game - the way it is being used on the same level as the player controlling the oil - is just as broken a mechanic. Siege shield...yeah ok. There are specific abilities meant to be "anti siege" but let's face it groups have figured out ways to utilize siege in ways it's not really meant to be used in order to overpower people who don't pay attention.

Sorry, it's broken and yes a broken mechanic - but no one has an "unfair advantage" so let's talk some more about why exploiting and broken are different things.

If it's broken and everyone can do it - who has an unfair advantage?

If it's broken and only a select few can do it - well, that's exploiting.

"Everyone doese it so its ok" is not a valid excuse. Sure, everyone can abuse exploits or cheat, if i post a link on the forums with <insert random cheat/hack/bot here> and you use it, doese it make it ok since everyone had access to it?

This mentality is why you see so many talon spamming/shield bashing/fear+resto staff-ing and whatever other broken mechanics you run by in Cyrodiil...they think its ok to abuse it...since everyone doese it, with little regard to other people's wellfare...shame on you!

EDIT: There already is a counter ingame for siege engines and that is the siege shield. If you fail to use it against the "oil defence" tactics then you deserve to get farmed by those people.

Infraction

Some of these posts are lulz worthy. You all make my day, every las tone of you.

You complete me.

ErykGrimm

bitaken wrote: »

I don't believe it's an exploit because EVERYONE can do it right now - until the broken mechanic is fixed. So - we are all on an equal footing. This is a PvP only concern - and since all players can use caltrops in this fashion - well we are all on an equal playing field. What's wrong about that? No more oil farms on the Alessia bridge? OHNOES!!! No more defending towers with 4 oil pots on the ground floor? OHNOES!!!

There should be a counter to everything. The use of oil in this game - the way it is being used on the same level as the player controlling the oil - is just as broken a mechanic. Siege shield...yeah ok. There are specific abilities meant to be "anti siege" but let's face it groups have figured out ways to utilize siege in ways it's not really meant to be used in order to overpower people who don't pay attention.

Sorry, it's broken and yes a broken mechanic - but no one has an "unfair advantage" so let's talk some more about why exploiting and broken are different things.

If it's broken and everyone can do it - who has an unfair advantage?

If it's broken and only a select few can do it - well, that's exploiting.

So as long as everyone poops in the pool its ok for you to poop in the pool. Got it. Thank you for giving us all a valuable life lesson.

nukeyoo

bitaken wrote: »

I don't believe it's an exploit because EVERYONE can do it right now -

If it's broken and everyone can do it - who has an unfair advantage?

If it's broken and only a select few can do it - well, that's exploiting.

bitaken wrote: »

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

By your logic the Fungal Grotto exploit is not actually an exploit since everyone had access to it. Limiting or not limiting by knowledge of it does not change the fact that the content was/is being used in a manner not intended by developers to gain advantage.

You might just want to quit while you're so far behind.

jvargas150_ESO

bitaken wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

bitaken wrote: »

An Exploit is using broken game mechanics to bypass legitimate game interaction and gain more EXP loot AP etc. I do not believe this is an exploit. I believe it's a broken mechanic....but not an exploit. Why is it the players using an ability in an area where they are supposed to use them....is an exploit? Discovering how they behave...how do the players know they are not intended to work this way?

This problem...is either A) working as intended (sorcerer's can dispel caltrops, so with a little co-ordination...boom baby!) and let's face it PvP is all about co-ordination, or a Bug that is on the list. It's truly a layer issue as I see it. With caltrops down the siege weapons hit the caltrops first. Since that layer has infinite hit points....no damage gets thru to players.

Though, it's possible, the game developers haven't seen this before as in the Beta it was probably not real easy to get to a high enough assault rank to get caltrops.

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

You know you just defined the whole thing in your first statement. Do you really think caltrops are intended to nullify all damage? Why would they even add a siege shield if that's the case.

As you said utilizing something that is clearly not intended for benefit is an exploit. Quit being so obtuse.

I guess you had trouble in eight grade reading classes then? You see me saying I think it's a broken mechanic. You also see me saying players are using caltrops WHERE they are supposed to be using Caltrops. Right?

Dev's have commented at this point that it is in fact a bug. I said in my OP that it may be a bug and that it was likely an oversight to layering because not many people in the AvA beta's got to a high enough rank to acquire and utilize caltrops in AvA.

Now:

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äb-/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1. annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand

Where am I slow to understand or annoyingly insensitive? Everyone can currently utilize Caltrops in the manner being described - and there are counters - which I gave you one of many. How is it that you fail to understand they cannot ban anyone - do you see me asking not to get banned? Let them ban me - and everyone else who is doing it - and then watch the game go FTP with some Pay to Win sales items on the website.

Really...obtuse?

No. Not obtuse.

You are so obtuse about being obtuse.. its obtusing..

Spawn

Honestly i find the whole thing as a annoyance, however I think my group is in a very rare situation. Honestly half the times where we would use caltrops we won't use now because will look like we exploiting, and i mean being one of the highest alliance point gaining groups out there we are constantly getting people spouting that anything we do is a exploit, that guy is guesting, exploit.. they use aoe, exploit... they holding a outpost to farm ap exploit... they put a camp up .. phantom camp exploit (seriously wtf aye)... Dragon leap onto a castle, exploit...

Yeah its seriously it kinda sucks not being able to use the damn skill.(in before someone posts blah blah you guys just exploit you always use it, blah blah blah)

But yeah i mean its still simple to kill anyone in a choke, just not for everyone anymore and you won't see many 1 players defending a keep by killing everyone with oil.

But yah like 70% of groups out there are doing it so i doubt bans will go out, its eso's fault not the players.

Infraction

Spawn wrote: »

Honestly i find the whole thing as a annoyance, however I think my group is in a very rare situation. Honestly half the times where we would use caltrops we won't use now because will look like we exploiting, and i mean being one of the highest alliance point gaining groups out there we are constantly getting people spouting that anything we do is a exploit, that guy is guesting, exploit.. they use aoe, exploit... they holding a outpost to farm ap exploit... they put a camp up .. phantom camp exploit (seriously wtf aye)... Dragon leap onto a castle, exploit...

Yeah its seriously it kinda sucks not being able to use the damn skill.(in before someone posts blah blah you guys just exploit you always use it, blah blah blah)

But yeah i mean its still simple to kill anyone in a choke, just not for everyone anymore and you won't see many 1 players defending a keep by killing everyone with oil.

But yah like 70% of groups out there are doing it so i doubt bans will go out, its eso's fault not the players.

Its a little of both. They may not have addressed it very quickly or quick enough to peoples liking but that really doesn't excuse the players from all responsibility of using it.

Its not a huge deal just annoying, some people will try to justify abusing any thing to get by and then try to absolve themselves from any responsibility.

Shadrail

bitaken wrote: »

It's not an exploit though. All the whiners saying it's an exploit...no.

Exploiting is things like the Fungal Grotto re spawn thing. That....That was an exploit.

Exploit:
Verb
to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends

But if its PVE its an exploit eh?

Infraction

All I can say really is:

RedTalon

Well should be hot fixed after the patch today/tomorrow.

Tintinabula

Its such a dirty abused broken mechanic I refuse to even allow my siege weapon to sit in caltrops. No one is gonna help me that way.

Awe

was funny today to kill AD exploiters with oil on AB. 40 zerg vs 2 in keep and they still need caltrops exploit....
sadly anti-exploit doesn't work with anything other, than oil
won't say, how it works, or those... devs... will decide not to fix the exploit at all.

nukeyoo

@bitaken I'm working on my eight grade geometry assignment and I can't remember what a triangle containing an angle greater then 90 degrees is called... I'm kind of slow to understand. So if you or anybody else could help me with this problem; I'd greatly appreciate it.

Igolbug

The only people I see using this on Wabbajack tonight are the guild Loud Damage, which is understandable because they are quite possibly the worst players I have ever seen, They wiped to the mage guards with 20 people inside Arrius.

Glurin

Awe wrote: »

was funny today to kill AD exploiters with oil on AB. 40 zerg vs 2 in keep and they still need caltrops exploit....
sadly anti-exploit doesn't work with anything other, than oil
won't say, how it works, or those... devs... will decide not to fix the exploit at all.

I imagine there's going to be quite a lot of tears once it's fixed. And not just AD either.

Caltrops break the other siege as well, so there's still plenty of reason for them to fix it even if you found a way to get around it with oil pots that isn't Negate Magic. (And if it is just Negate Magic, that still leaves things wildly broken since defending a keep with siege right now essentially requires at least two or three sorcerers with it on their bars.)

nukeyoo wrote: »

@bitaken I'm working on my eight grade geometry assignment and I can't remember what a triangle containing an angle greater then 90 degrees is called... I'm kind of slow to understand. So if you or anybody else could help me with this problem; I'd greatly appreciate it.

Well, according to the new standards, first you draw a square, then you draw a square missing one side, then you draw a triangle. Then you draw a dodecahedron next to the triangle. Then you write a sentence about why you drew a dodecahedron and why it's not like a square. Then you conclude that the answer is in fact "coconut" and pick up your high school diploma on your way out the door.

Gaettusk

This thread should be kept at top until they realize if they don't l2hotfix, they wont stay in business long.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Rylana

They fixed the scout missions to transitus enabled keeps exploit, they will fix this one

Garetth

Infraction wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Shorter Bitaken:

Please don't ban me for standing in friendly caltrops to avoid siege damage.

I doubt anyone is getting banned for it but it's trivializing Cyrodill as it gains momentum in usage.

LOL! This game is sooo broken in sooo many ways it's just unbelievable.

SilentThunder

hmm I can stand here on this ram and ether die or stess the hell outa my healers OR I can toss down broken caltrops. What would you expect most people to do in that situation ? Even if 90% of the people assaulting a keep were not the type to willingly use a broken mechanic like this there's ALLWAYS going to be some one who will. Expecting it not to happen is just silly. It needs fixing asap as oil was the only thing that kept people from taking keeps in 5 min from front gate to cap.

edit: Keeps in general need to be tougher even a undefended keep should take a min of 15-20 min to cap but as it is you can set up max siege and go thru both gates in less than 3 min or both walls in under 5 making it imposable for defenders to reach the keep in time.

pecheckler

Wow. Just temporarily disabled caltrops. How hard is that?