Rare Motifs = In-game currency isn't enough for some players (ARGH!)

ipkonfigcub18_ESO

Good job on nerfing the rare Motifs, Zenimax. Now we have players asking for real currency for the Daedric Motif in the game. You've made it so rare that some players are charging up to $200 via PayPal to obtain the item from them. (and you better bet players are paying out real cash for items like this in your game)

If you're going to continue to nerf item drops like this in your game then you should greatly expect to see players abusing your games system even more in the near future. I don't care if every player later has the Daedric Motif skins - to me it's just fun stuff to have. And I don't care if Johny-Nose-Picker doesn't want other players having it because his snot-nose thinks he should only be the unique player in the game.

Stop nerfing items that give players a chance to have fun and put a stop to players extorting other players within your game.

Step up to the plate, Zenimax, and start doing something about these types of abuse in your game. You developed this game but as of late you seem to have about-faced us.

You have two options here and one of them making Motifs bind-on-pickup. The other is to just let players enjoy the game with the previous drop rates and have fun.


Mod: This topic has been moved to General Discussion - English

Phantax

Seen this kind of thing in chat (well to be exact they were leading a person in chat to a page where this was happening) I could easily see this happening, we already have gold sellers mailing us with info about having these items for sale !

The moment Zeni released the patch that nerfed motifs I started to complain saying all this would do is harm legitimate players. Now we have a black-market for in game items because zeni were too lazy to fix the bot/sellers problem. They just took the easy option and now everybody id getting hurt.

You see, won't be long now till we see some story in the games press about little Billy taking his dad's credit card to pay hundreds of dollars for something that we all should have (at min a fair chance) on our characters !
(see how long that farther keeps paying a sub then !)

For once I'm really going to enjoy saying... I TOLD YOU SO ! ! !

Seroczynski

It's not the drop rate nerf that is the problem here, but the lack of actions towards people who sell those items for real money.

Blackwolfe5

The drop rate nerf is a problem, simply since it punishes people that never abused the logout/login trick.

Sidereal

Did you know:

Before the drop rate decrease, in order to easily and quickly obtain motifs, players (not just bots) would repeatedly log in and out of a location to refresh desks, wardrobes, trunks, nightstands, etc.

Bots were advertising motifs, crafting mats, and gold as early as launch day.

---

I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the singular act of decreasing drops on items that were being lazy-farmed ruined the economy. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the decrease brought gold-sellers to this game. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers talking nonsense.

The fact is that the rare motifs were, in no way whatsoever, rare before the decrease. I didn't do the relog thing, but I do always check containers in buildings--I had managed to find one daedric motif, 2 primal, 1 barbarian, and 2 ancient elf motifs in a matter of days. That sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me.

Milanna

Pretty please dont buy items for real money.

KariTR

Just report the people trying to sell for real money.

Incidentally, it wasn't bots logging into the bank vaults over and over in an attempt to get motifs, it was players like you and I.

And I would say this real problem is players who want to buy items for cash instead of taking their chances of finding an item in game.

Phantax

Seroczynski wrote: »

It's not the drop rate nerf that is the problem here, but the lack of actions towards people who sell those items for real money.

I agree / and disagree with you here. Yes Zeni need to wade in with the ban hammer on any account that is connected with selling gold.
But the nerf IS also an issue.

I had a thread running about bugged containers (reminds me need to update those numbers).
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95240/empty-bugged-loot-containers-bug-keeping-count#latest
Anyway, although the post wasn't actually about motifs it did prove a secondary point, the nerf was way to harsh. I opened over 1000 containers (all of these in VR level zones) and not one, not a single rare motif book dropped !
(In fact that number need updating which is 300+ containers more and still no motif)

Catflinger

Sidereal wrote: »

I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the singular act of decreasing drops on items that were being lazy-farmed ruined the economy. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the decrease brought gold-sellers to this game. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers talking nonsense.

You don't understand the simple rule of supply and demand, do you?

The fact is that the rare motifs were, in no way whatsoever, rare before the decrease. I didn't do the relog thing, but I do always check containers in buildings--I had managed to find one daedric motif, 2 primal, 1 barbarian, and 2 ancient elf motifs in a matter of days. That sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me.

Yes, and if the drop rates hadn't been nerfed so severely, a lot of other people would feel exactly the same way as you -- and therefore there wouldn't now be this stupid, overinflated in-game market for the damn things, and even a "black market" of sorts, a RMT industry around them. Do you see how that works?

RedTalon

Do make sure you report the people doing it, and make sure ZOS is aware of the sight. Since its against the TOS.

KerinKor

Sidereal wrote: »

I had managed to find one daedric motif, 2 primal, 1 barbarian, and 2 ancient elf motifs in a matter of days. That sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me.

My heart bleeds for you, you must be really happy the rest of us who didn't exploit game mechanics now don't see any except those for sale by RMT.

murgandy

It's not just the fact that the drop rate is decreased either, I'm still having issues with every desk and nightstand I check say it has something in it and then being empty when I open it. If I can't even find the containers with contents there's virtually no way I'll ever find any rare or ultra rare motifs.

clocksstoppe

It is exactly as planned, the motifs are very valuable.

Selling them for IRL money has nothing to do with this and is an entirely different issue

Catflinger

murgandy wrote: »

It's not just the fact that the drop rate is decreased either, I'm still having issues with every desk and nightstand I check say it has something in it and then being empty when I open it. If I can't even find the containers with contents there's virtually no way I'll ever find any rare or ultra rare motifs.

Heck, I started just after the nerf, and in all my time playing since, I have found one -- one -- motif book. Which one, you ask? Breton. Excuse me while I contain my excitement.

Phantax

murgandy wrote: »

It's not just the fact that the drop rate is decreased either, I'm still having issues with every desk and nightstand I check say it has something in it and then being empty when I open it. If I can't even find the containers with contents there's virtually no way I'll ever find any rare or ultra rare motifs.

@murgandy You'll love this thread then -

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95240/empty-bugged-loot-containers-bug-keeping-count#latest

Sidereal

Catflinger wrote: »

Sidereal wrote: »

I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the singular act of decreasing drops on items that were being lazy-farmed ruined the economy. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers claim that the decrease brought gold-sellers to this game. I see a lot of forum goers and youtubers talking nonsense.

You don't understand the simple rule of supply and demand, do you?

The fact is that the rare motifs were, in no way whatsoever, rare before the decrease. I didn't do the relog thing, but I do always check containers in buildings--I had managed to find one daedric motif, 2 primal, 1 barbarian, and 2 ancient elf motifs in a matter of days. That sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me.

Yes, and if the drop rates hadn't been nerfed so severely, a lot of other people would feel exactly the same way as you -- and therefore there wouldn't now be this stupid, overinflated in-game market for the damn things, and even a "black market" of sorts, a RMT industry around them. Do you see how that works?

Pfft, "overinflated". I'm not so sure a lot of other people feeling like, "that sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me," would be a very good thing at all. I understand supply and demand completely, and condescending questions like that make you seem highly presumptuous. Might want to work on that. I'm sure you were thrilled to see the rare motifs go from 120k at launch, to 80k, to 50k, to 40k, 25k, and then hit a rock bottom of 10k. Such a rapid drop in prices indicates the extremely quick saturation of said motifs in the market--and that isn't good. It isn't healthy. It shows that within 2 weeks, right before the decrease, the supply for rare motifs had grossly outweighed the demand--and it wasn't going to get any better.

The problem with the economy is that players often demand items to which they'll only assign a sentimental value. It's worth enough to upset you if you can't easily obtain it, but not enough to actually pay gold. The saying "if it isn't free, it already costs too much," comes to mind.

RMT has been going on since Ultima Online and will likely continue as long as there are items of perceived value in MMOs--increasing drop rates only ensures that players adhering to in game currency suffer.

@KerinKor The only thing you're upset about is that you missed the chance to exploit the relog trick yourself. My heart bleeds for you.

Amsel_McKay

Remove Motifs from the game... Add in quests that explore the race that you want to craft and have to "help" racial crafters. After you finish the quests you unlock that style. For the "rare" styles make the quest long and difficult (Ancient Elf you have to go back in time or something) I'm sure you can come up with some cool ideas and stories.

Sidereal

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Remove Motifs from the game... Add in quests that explore the race that you want to craft and have to "help" racial crafters. After you finish the quests you unlock that style. For the "rare" styles make the quest long and difficult (Ancient Elf you have to go back in time or something) I'm sure you can come up with some cool ideas and stories.

I like this idea. Maybe they could also give us exclusive sets to craft as well.

Catflinger

Sidereal wrote: »

Pfft, "overinflated". I'm not so sure a lot of other people feeling like, "that sucked a lot of excitement out of those items for me," would be a very good thing at all.

Good game design enables people to feel happy about finding things, yes. But it's not good game design to enable a thriving atmosphere in RMT, either. Before you take this comment apart with further snotty commentary, read on.

I understand supply and demand completely,

Well, that certainly wasn't apparent from your initial post, which came off as nothing more than bragging about how many motifs you found and how RMT isn't a big deal -- kind of like how this latest post of yours is coming off, frankly.

and condescending questions like that make you seem highly presumptuous. Might want to work on that.

Naaaah, I don't think so. I'm pretty good at knowing when to ask such questions and when to be nice.

I'm sure you were thrilled to see the rare motifs go from 120k at launch, to 80k, to 50k, to 40k, 25k, and then hit a rock bottom of 10k. Such a rapid drop in prices indicates the extremely quick saturation of said motifs in the market--and that isn't good. It isn't healthy. It shows that within 2 weeks, right before the decrease, the supply for rare motifs had grossly outweighed the demand--and it wasn't going to get any better.

Two things here. One, you're suggesting that the answer to this is to adjust the drops so drastically that no one gets any, ever, unless they got them before the nerfs or they buy them from a source who may have duped them or whatever. And two, you're also suggesting that a few weeks after launch is enough time to determine what is and is not a healthy economy for a fledgling game before flinging open the doors wide for RMT operators. Yeah, genius-level thinking there.

The problem with the economy is that players often demand items to which they'll only assign a sentimental value. It's worth enough to upset you if you can't easily obtain it, but not enough to actually pay gold. The saying "if it isn't free, it already costs too much," comes to mind.

Thanks for the lecture about how other people feel about their stuff. Now explain how nerfing the drops as drastically as was done has helped the matter -- at all. Explain that wonderful "excitement" people get when forking over inflated -- yes, inflated -- amounts of gold or even real money because they have no hope at all of ever finding these items in game. Explain all this please.

RMT has been going on since Ultima Online and will likely continue as long as there are items of perceived value in MMOs--increasing drop rates only ensures that players adhering to in game currency suffer.

With all due respect, and I trust that you understand that I mean that with the utmost sincerity, you are full of it. Who the fark cares how long RMT has been going on and in which games? It's a cancer and the influence of RMT peddlers in games should be minimized whenever and however possible.

Drop rates need to be buffed - sanely and prudently. Not to the levels that they were on release, but so that they can once again be found, occasionally, and be bought and sold -- and even used when found, even -- by legit players.

ElliottXO

It's because gold has no value for end game players. There is nothing to buy.

Cogo

Blaming Zenimax for someone doing something illigal is just plain stupid.
Do you blame the police for someone who steals from you?

Report the moron who asks for real money for anything in game. That is not allowed. The reason to deal with this, is reporting and you can be 100% sure that someone who gets several reports against them for the same violation will get a nice visit of a GM.

And for you who do not know, GMs can read whatever you ever typed in game as any of your characters. So screenshoot with proof is good, but not needed.

Really....if this is going on, PLEASE, use the report. It works.

Cogo

On another note. I really like that they making motifs rare. They are way to common now. I even hope they create some new types of motifs that only can be gained by some specific, like dropping from a big raid boss, or extended quest, or simply find an old lady out in nowhere who you talk to and in the dialog simply listen to her, where there is an option to stop listening, and in the end...she gives you a gift......motif!

This lady thing though must have a long cooldown like a week, and preferbly move location each week. Get what I mean?

Cogo

Milanna wrote: »

Pretty please dont buy items for real money.

THIS is the real way to stop the problem of this kind. Bots or player or whatever.
DONT feking buy anything for real money in game! Then YOU are the problem.

Maestro_Sartori

ipkonfigcub18_ESO wrote: »

Good job on nerfing the rare Motifs, Zenimax. Now we have players asking for real currency for the Daedric Motif in the game. You've made it so rare that some players are charging up to $200 via PayPal to obtain the item from them. (and you better bet players are paying out real cash for items like this in your game)

If you're going to continue to nerf item drops like this in your game then you should greatly expect to see players abusing your games system even more in the near future. I don't care if every player later has the Daedric Motif skins - to me it's just fun stuff to have. And I don't care if Johny-Nose-Picker doesn't want other players having it because his snot-nose thinks he should only be the unique player in the game.

Stop nerfing items that give players a chance to have fun and put a stop to players extorting other players within your game.

Step up to the plate, Zenimax, and start doing something about these types of abuse in your game. You developed this game but as of late you seem to have about-faced us.

You have two options here and one of them making Motifs bind-on-pickup. The other is to just let players enjoy the game with the previous drop rates and have fun.

Yes, we been let out in the cold on this one, couldn't agree more. I've been looting things for a week now, alot more then I have....haven't found one. So yeah thanks for nothing...

Catflinger

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Remove Motifs from the game... Add in quests that explore the race that you want to craft and have to "help" racial crafters. After you finish the quests you unlock that style. For the "rare" styles make the quest long and difficult (Ancient Elf you have to go back in time or something) I'm sure you can come up with some cool ideas and stories.

I think this is a great idea.

Sidereal

@Catflinger Like I pointed out for the other guy: you're upset that you missed your shot at getting motifs the easy way. It'd be simpler for you to admit it, rather than trying to contest me, point for point, in some sad contest to prove your "superiority". You want things either for the cheapest price possible, or free. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for this, but I'm not going to agree that this is the way it should be.

These games are going to continue to upset you in the same manner Catflinger. You can make me out to be some sort of enemy, turn this into a case of the haves and have nots, but everything you've posted in this thread screams that you want a hand out.

ipkonfigcub18_ESO

The saddest part about all of this is those of us who play legit are the ones that get screwed in the end by the developers. How is this supposed to encourage us to continue paying them $15 a month if they're going to continue beating us with the rod when we didn't exploit/questionable activities to obtain items within the game? I feel Zenimax is losing control of this game rather fast for such things to be happening so rapidly within the game.

But in the end the legit is what gets hurt by bad players actions.

ipkonfigcub18_ESO

Phantax wrote: »

Seroczynski wrote: »

It's not the drop rate nerf that is the problem here, but the lack of actions towards people who sell those items for real money.

I agree / and disagree with you here. Yes Zeni need to wade in with the ban hammer on any account that is connected with selling gold.
But the nerf IS also an issue.

I had a thread running about bugged containers (reminds me need to update those numbers).
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95240/empty-bugged-loot-containers-bug-keeping-count#latest
Anyway, although the post wasn't actually about motifs it did prove a secondary point, the nerf was way to harsh. I opened over 1000 containers (all of these in VR level zones) and not one, not a single rare motif book dropped !
(In fact that number need updating which is 300+ containers more and still no motif)

I have not seen a Motif since around my 30's and I am now half way through V4 level. I click on everything I see, I'm looter by day and night. I haven't seen anything but players taking advantage of other players with the ridiculous pricing on Motifs and as I said in the OP thread: asking for real money now.

Catflinger

Sidereal wrote: »

@Catflinger Like I pointed out for the other guy: you're upset that you missed your shot at getting motifs the easy way. It'd be simpler for you to admit it, rather than trying to contest me, point for point, in some sad contest to prove your "superiority". You want things either for the cheapest price possible, or free. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for this, but I'm not going to agree that this is the way it should be.

These games are going to continue to upset you in the same manner Catflinger. You can make me out to be some sort of enemy, turn this into a case of the haves and have nots, but everything you've posted in this thread screams that you want a hand out.

Look, if you don't have an answer to my questions, just admit it, OK? If you need them repeated, I'm happy to:

"Explain how nerfing the drops as drastically as was done has helped the matter -- at all. Explain that wonderful "excitement" people get when forking over inflated -- yes, inflated -- amounts of gold or even real money because they have no hope at all of ever finding these items in game. Explain all this please."

I'll add that a desire to work hard for one's spoils rather than handing over real money to people like yourself doesn't translate to wanting a handout. Now, will you answer my questions or keep defending RMT?

Raash

Seriously... if someone is to buy a motif for real cash, so what?
I would personaly never ever pay real cash for a such a stupid thing as a motif in a game but who can stop someone to do so if that someone really want to?
Answer: No one!
It would happen on forums or elsewhere if it was prohibited anyway.
And please, Keep stuff rare zenimax and dont listen to this nonsens about stuff being to rare - some stuff should be! Or simply just make a /command to give whatever a player want to have to cater to the ever growing cries of convenience.

Catflinger

Raash wrote: »

Seriously... if someone is to buy a motif for real cash, so what?

It's a copyright violation, a bannable offense, and against the EULA to sell them and against the EULA and a bannable offense to buy them, that's what.